Jesus, a confused young lad?

Ok bear with me here, because this is not meant to be offensive to christianity in any way, it’s just an idea I’ve been thinking about for a little while now.

Now not that any of us here have ever done drugs right? :unamused: but for those that have there’s always stories of people who ‘talked to god’ on LSD, or they… found the lifestream through X, whatever. Nowadays you wake up the next morning and laugh at the messed up night you had, knowing that it was the effects of a particular drug playing tricks on your nervous system.

But what about back in the old savior’s days, drugs were prevelent, tons exist within nature, it’s not unreasonable that Jesus simply tripped out on something, and liked to do it frequently. This could go for moses and the whole rest of the crew.

Now at this point you’re probably like ‘get the mic out of this guy’s hands’ but just hang in there. :smiley:

Recent studies have shown that the observer in all of us (consciousness, separate from our physical makeup, metaphysical brain) can actually influence the quantum field by what we think. I mentioned this on another post, but imagine a cup of water: A monk prayer, hateful thoughts, thoughts of lust, or love <— all these things will actually change the molecular makeup of the water, distinct for each thought.

In today’s world our brains are being bombarded by a whole world of messages and experience meant to subliminally scare, belittle and confuse us. – Back in the biblical days they didn’t know what was going on, there was no expectation (really) for the brain and so it was free to blow wide open under the right hallucinagenic experiences. It’s not so unlikely to say that Jesus had some sort of vision/experience and consequently after that truly believed he was the son of some sort of God. Whose to say he didn’t walk on water, if you believe with ever fibre of your being, something will happen, it will according to this extended quantum theory. Jesus could easily have been a very delusional, yet enlightened man. Put yourself in his feet back then, knowing you could walk on water, it might drive you to say some strange things.

Drugs can do incredible things, my parents are both cops and they’ve told me stories of a malnurished drug fiend taking on 8 well trained cops in a PCP rage. This isn’t so unlikely, especially in the face of new technological advances. Merlin, Legendary Asian warriors, all these ‘mythical’ things may have in fact existed at one time, perhaps we were once relative masters of the mind and spirit, only to have lost this ability with colonization and intelligence. But now on the eve of a technological exponential launchpad we’re seeing these once magical things rearing their heads again.

He was smokin’ weed, disciples too, and they are all in the same "mood’
today.Truth about Him, that confirms that He is who He turned out to be,lies in Prophecies of old testament that told us exact day when he was born.He is not , and never will be your savior (It is just something that “organized religion” believe blindly, him to be), which is something he
said many times,presented in gospels.Try Matthew 13:11 , or
John 6:44, which is crucial for these days we live in, when His name
is not Jesus anymore.

       much respect, time and "mind expanding" drugs !

Of course if everybody was on drugs back then, Jesus’ “powers” would not have seemed like anything special.

Nice idea though (the idea of degeneration, that is).

Regards,

James

Not necessarily though, not everyone would have self-actualized… he was just one of the lucky ones that did, and truly comprehended it.

I see what you’re saying, I realize my theory isn’t the most solid train of thoughts… but at the same time I don’t trust too much of the ‘written’ word that is the bible. That thing was re-written so many times that things like ‘exact dates’ seem more likely to be the work of some overzealous scribe. Just like how half the people lived to be 900 years old.

I think the key to unlocking the mysteries of the past is to compare reoccuring themes throughout world history rather than trying to overexamine texts that have long since been altered beyond any real meaning to us. Why is there this similar trend throughout history?Why is it that every culture had stories of normal people, doing superhuman things? This isn’t an attempt at explaining the world with (animal) dieties or the like, this isn’t worship, it’s observation.

assuming that they all existed then yea, i’m sure they thought of a few things in alternate surroundings, that would certainly explain the bible.

ah drugs
Sometimes i wish i could have them to take away the memories, i really need a break from myself.

You make music and you don’t do drugs?

shame on you!

throws a joint at mat

You hypothesis is rather demanding; things had to have been a certain way to explain the simultaneous arguments;

  1. more people could perform these acts back then
  2. but not so many that it was considered normal

But first a reply to the quote above;
I thought you wanted to say he did not comprehend it, because he saw it as the manifestation of God, rather than some quantum phenomenon (the latter of which being what you hold to be true)? And yet the configuration of his beliefs gave him some ability which we lack. So in an important sense he was ‘superior’ to us, and we are ‘degenerate’ in comparison. Otherwise we would be walking on water too.

Strange though that some people today can manifest mediocre recreations of Jesus’ feats - such as taking on eight cops etc - without having that belief configuration, but only the drugs. If the drugs were widely available back then, you would expect these actions to be more frequent, if not the more the Jesus-like actions.

So we say that it is both the beliefs and the drugs. The beliefs, I would assume, are social phenomenon though? So you would expect more people (proportionate to the population as a whole) to be capable of these things back then. So now we are putting forth the hypothesis that the beliefs were more prevalent, the ‘mind-set’; now if the belief and the drugs were both more prevalent, then you would expect there to be a much higher quantity of ‘Jesus-like’ acts, and so a ‘re-normalisation’ to accommodate for this fact. But, remember, we want to argue that it was not considered ‘normal’. So perhaps we change our hypothesis, remembering this;

  1. If it were just drugs, then we would be able to recreate these feats today.
  2. If there beliefs were as hard to reach then, as now, then how can we explain that they were able to do it, and not us? So we must start with a grounding assumption that the state-of-mind was at least somewhat easier to achieve.

So we end up with a hypothesis based on these variables;

  1. the drugs were/weren’t widely available
  2. the state-of-mind was incredibly hard to achieve (yet easier than it is today)
    Best case scenario = only those who were studying the mindset had access to the drugs.

I will maintain that, given the mind-set was altogether easier to achieve, and the drugs approximately ‘as easy to attain’, then more people would have been able to perform Jesus-like acts. Furthermore, I maintain that a higher incidence of these acts would have a de-sensitising effect.

But this is not all. You might say that because there were higher incidences, the reality of these acts was more socially accepted, and this explains why Jesus garnered such a large following. It would also explain all the others (Moses etc), as well as stuff like Greek myth (think Achilles).

You would also argue that, the greater ease of attaining the mind-set, and the precise availability of the drugs, exactly explains the small number of people who could perform Jesus-like acts; no more, no less. In which case it would be misguided to ask; “where are all the others?”

One difficult argument to overcome might be this; given that Jesus mis-comprehended the nature of his power, and given that his mind-set was part of the social psyche, are we able to say that he ‘meditated’ or ‘studied’ i.e. did something conscious to achieve it? It seems that it was the society as a whole, the context, which enabled the person of Jesus to arise.

Now assume also that part of your argument is based on the idea that the ‘mind-set’ or willpower of belief, can manifest noticeable physical phenomena.

If it only required the belief of a single person, then it would be feasible to become modern day Jesus’ today. The society must have reciprocated. Reciprocation and validation equate to willingness to believe. The world-picture of the times must have considered the possibility of Jesus types more likely, and hence of a higher level of normality. Which simply means that, certainly, if Jesus arose today we would consider him more miraculous than did the people back then. It would not be ‘normal’ for us, to have people walking on water and turning it into wine.

And yet it seems they did not consider it ‘normal’, as they heralded him as the son of God, or else dismissed his acts as ‘not possibly true’.

Henceforth, based on your reasoning, I think that Jesus must not have done any of those things.

Of course the above is not exhaustive, and I feel like a missed a few things, somewhere. So I look forward to your response.

Regards,

James

Hello F(r)iends,

When you say thinking you really meant to say smoking right?

Well, the theory of Jesus being a madman has been around… though it has not been suggested that he was a druggie too…

Wait, the drugs were powerful enough to produce hallucinogenic reactions and thus created, in Jesus, the belief that he was the son of god and Jesus believed with all his being thus he could manipulate water (walk on it, change it into wine, people are mostly water)…

Our synthetic drugs are much more poweful today. I don’t recall reading about the local crackhead healing the sick and walking on water… or maybe they are too drunk to help others from changing water into wine. I wonder why there aren’t more miracles today since we have drugs that expand our minds, that put is in touch with our spirituality. Perhaps because it is a load of crap.

Gobbo, you didn’t intend on offending but perhaps your drugs didn’t let you think it through and thus you failed.

Wow. Rarely does someone so ineloquently address religion (and with such poor grammar to boot). Perhaps your drugs do not allow you to think cohesively. Reading your post is almost like watching a retard in action–just look at the beauty of this: “(It is just something that “organized religion” believe blindly, him to be)”

If your “mind expanding” drugs produce the effect you demonstrated I say: Get off my lawn hippie!

-Thirst

Yeah I see where you’re coming from here. Ok picture this:
Jesus goes out, eats some whatever and starts to trip, because his mind is so relatively clear (no real preconceived notions about the world - at least compared to us). So he’s standing around tripping out and suddenly he… makes a rock float or something. Now maybe it did float, maybe it didn’t. But to him it’s a sign from God (because that’s all he knows how to explain the world by). So he believes so much in what he experienced that his neural net is strengthened to the point where he can now affect the quantum field. It was not that he assumed it to be God in the first place, it just happened and in his mind he said ‘God does exist… I know this for certain now’. I always saw LSD and such as a roulette wheel for your mind, because you can be sitting there having a great time, and 1 single thought will enter your head and you’ll start to trip. So it wasn’t that anyone who took drugs in this period of time could suddenly get ‘powers’ it was a very very chancy thing.

But this is not all. You might say that because there were higher incidences, the reality of these acts was more socially accepted, and this explains why Jesus garnered such a large following. It would also explain all the others (Moses etc), as well as stuff like Greek myth (think Achilles).

Now James keep in mind that back then, things were ALOT different. There was no internet or phones, all these people ‘moses, jesus, achilles’ could have easily done things without there being a ‘desensitization effect’ because a) most wouldn’t have believed them (the people who did the feats) and b) those that saw and did believe had no way of making others believe. It wasn’t like everyone was running around talking about this stuff because more times than not, they were probably scared to talk about it.
Don’t take this the wrong way but I think you’re giving these people way too much credit, they really didn’t know what was going on… alot of them didn’t have access to ancient greek writings, or any writings for that matter… too the majority the world was a very mysterious place.

I’m postulating that the belief came -after- the original experience. Say all the stuff about virgin mary and that was written -after- jesus lived, which I’m almost positive it was, so it’s not unlikely someone altered some stuff to make ‘their lord’ seem cooler than he actually was. Then assume Jesus was just a dude, he was tripping and stumbled onto something crazy and so in his mind he said ‘this must be god… I’m drunk on my own sense of power and I’m going to proclaim myself the son of God’ and maybe he had such insight after his years of thinking (what happened to Jesus’s teen years?) that he came up with this ‘religion’ and had alot of truly profound things to say and declare. Given his mindstate at the time and his lack of knowledge about the world this is could be reasonable.

Now about what you said pertaining to the world today…: I think that it -is-possible for someone to do what jesus did without any sort of believe structure, it would just be ALOT harder because our brains are already so crammed with info saying ‘you are weak, you are scared, you can’t do anything but fuel the corporate engine’ – This is most likely why Monks who live in solitude can do cool myterious things, because their minds are so clear, but it takes them dedicating their lives to meditation to achieve this.

Ok… after all these quotes and responses I’m lost, someone reply so I can get some bearings

Do Yourself a Favor and don’t Judge Me, You have no clue who I am,
Am I doing Drugs or Not, Acording to words I’ve posted on this forum
No One should call Me a Retard, I still have Respect,and I love You,because truth and Love are All I got. But, I am Going to report your
Reply to Moderators, because You have Insulted me, which is I guess
“Christian” Way.

      Much Love !!

Thirst, read the whole thing before you go on your rant. Keep in mind this isn’t mundane or the rant house so let’s keep the responses more on the debate side rather than throwing around verbal feces. I’m referring to peacefultyme on this… what he said wasn’t in the best grammar… but I got what he said. Hell my grammar/spelling is just barely above water as it is.

Yeah so… … I forgot what I was saying, post nice :smiley:

Hello F(r)iends,

Piece, we are in a philosophy site. We are here to judge each other’s opinions as worthy or not… Also, all I have to judge you with are your words: perhaps you will want to start over?

I did not call you a retard. Check what you quoted: I used the word ALMOST… irregardless, please tell the moderators as I am certain they will agree that your first communication was incoherent.

Finally, why in the world do you think I would conform to the “Christian way”. I am an agnostic, I lean towards atheism. However, I am sick of untrained minds (which yours appeared to be) bashing religion–it makes my ilk look bad when we critique it…

Old Gobbo, I will tone it down. I think you will agree that the above post was not ranting.

In conclusion: C’est la vie.

que sera, sera

Thanks for the response Gobbo.

Too many differences to iron out, and I am uninspired. So here, have some haphazard claptrap instead.

  1. When I say belief I do not mean something you form retrospectively about an experience, but something that structures the experience as experience. So I also use terms like ‘mind-set’ etc.

  2. Different preconceptions - not ‘no preconceptions’. Not “relative clarity”.

  3. Good to see that now you are mixing your theory with the normal one which says that supernatural events were fabricated after the fact.

  4. Remember oral tradition, narrative of identity (especially with the Jews!). Yes things were a lot different. I feel that I am accounting for this, and that you are not. For you it is the reverse.

  5. Identity, world-picture… Greeks view themselves as ‘mouth-piece’ of greater forces. The way that we orient towards phenomena shapes phenomena.

  6. Whole cultures, societies. Belief structure enables communication.

Regards,

James

First of all marijuana was found on King Solomons grave, and it is known
to be used in that period.My guess is that not too many people today, knows
where was Jesus between 13 and 30 years of age. I do.
I am not Christian, just living truth that Man “called” Jesus Christ gave us before His " Dissapearnce"
If any of you don’t know the truth why hating me.
Don’t Hate, just participate :sunglasses:
thirst4mental’s reply to my synopsis was Insult from beginning with sarcastic
“Wow”, to end it with sarcastic “just look at the beauty of this :”

Umm… I’m not saying you don’t know what you’re talking about, but I don’t know what you’re talking about… I just flat out don’t understand this

maybe he’s stoned right now?

Personally I don’t think too many of the prophets were stoned or drunk as those things were looked down upon. I’ve seen a more interesting theory were the prophets were actually poets.

Some of these guys would starve themselves out in the heat! I’m sure that that produces some effects.

In psychology there is something called a psychotic depression. It’s basically when you get so sad about something your mind creates a fantasy world for you.

I have had a bunch of cases where a valued family member dies and then one of the family sees him walking around. This is classic with old people. You just can’t believe that after 40 years of marriage that you will never see that person again. So, you see them!

Another case was with a super religious girl that did a little something sexual with her boy friend. Then by coincidence she developed endometriosis (a painful uterine condition) and she thought that it was a punishment from god. She started hearing his voice and what not. Eventually I convinced her that god would not do such a thing and it cleared up.

Well, the biblical prophets weren’t exactly living it up at a luxury resort and probably were bright people especially Abraham and Jesus was probably super empathetic. Both had a lot to worry about. Anyway, maybe they kind of went crazy and all of the things they knew came vomiting out of their mind. These things were like calculations that they had subconsciously been working on about how to survive. They then misinterpreted their own great ideas as coming from god.

The life of Buddha is kind of like this. He had different experiences and then put his philosophy together, but does not attribute it to god.

Meanwhile, I suspect that other people like Mohamed wanted to start a cult, so he fabricated a story. I say this because all of his wars seemed a bit too self-serving. However, he could have went crazy as well.

The state of “crazy” is more powerful than any drug.

You my dear scythekain, are not even aware how Right you are !!!
You and other guys here “Stoned” me with Imaginery rocks, you know,
“let the one who’ve never sined trow the firs rock”, and unfortunately,
those stones are just comming and comming …
U C, I am just your Ordinary 100% Happy Person, Got everything I ever
wanted,( dreamed of, and seen in my vision) in my life.
There is absolutely nothing more that I desire.I love my life and everything in It, including inapropriate remarks by you guys, because
absolutely nothing could happened any other way.
When telling you the truth about Jesus, I knew what was comming in
respond, and that is natural.Because you guys have right to feel Life
different than I do.You shouldn’t atack my personality, by slappin’ me with
all kinds of Negative “Labels”, It is not about ones perfection, but about
Decencies.
Don’t try to feel my state of mind, focus on challenging my statements,
that is our reason being here, not to Insult eachother’s Personalities.

much respect !

If a drunk guy rolls up to me on the street and tells me that a pink elephant is after him. The first thing that I will say is, “are you drunk?”