Selfish Heaven

but the freaking point is that youre NOT doing it for a reputation. look at hive minded organisims. bees for example, they put the hive before themselves even though if they die, the hive would not benefit them whatsoever. they do it out of instinct and emotion. anyone who has an instinct knows what its like, it just feels “right” do do something. i would imagine that is why the bee would die for the hive, because it feels like the right course of action. now if a person were in a stressful situation and was acting on instinct as well as emotion, they could very well take a bullet for their lover, simply with the lover in mind. they might think “i want her to live” and yes, that is his goal, that is what he wants, but he wants in IN THE INTEREST of the other person. it dosent benefit them, and theyre not taking into account such things like what life would be like without so and so, they just jump in front of the bullet in interest for the other person.

Ok… let’s start with the first sentence.

I agree with you, there is a cause to my act… and I’m the cause. But just because I am the cause to an action doesn’t mean that that said action… is one that was caused by selfish desires. Just because -I- decided… does not make it selfish. That is my point. If I travel to some foreign city I’ve never been to before, and most likely never will be to again and I have a homeless person (or any person for that matter) a couple dollars… there is no self interest there (at least not in my mind). It’s a selfless act… I believe these can exist.

I think you’re more thinking along the lines of Golden Currie when he said that ^

And there’s nothing wrong with that… there is no answer here… I’m just trying to explain my side. I don’t see ‘wanting’ to do something as part of some spectrum of ‘selfish’ because the thing I -want- to do isn’t impacting me really. I don’t find ‘peace of mind’ or shit like that as a good answer because it’s a copout… I’m already at peace, and I still give away some change sometimes… and maybe one day I’ll take a bullet for my girlfriend/wife whatever’s going on at the time.

As for ‘using this act’ as a means to retain a reputation. I actually laughed at that one… albiet more of a ‘heh’. If you think I’m here to gain a reputation then you’re mistaken… I’m not mad, some people do like to be ‘well known’ or respected online… there’s nothing wrong with that… clearly it’s on your mind as you brought it up, but I don’t personally care too much. I think if I really wanted to be respected I’d tell everyone about myself and inimportant facts regarding my life. In fact I think all I’ve told people on here is where I live, my age and that I play basketball.

This isn’t an act… this is me working a summer job that basically has me sit in a room with a comp and some keys that i use to open and close some doors occasionally… this act is me getting paid to write my thoughts.

But I can play along if you want… consider me a monkey who beats off, throws his own shit around and bangs on a computer… that way you’re winning in this contest that seems to be going on in your head.

Lets consider another, more graphic scenario. Let’s say a man is given an option to give his own life to save his wife from rape and torture till her death. This man gladly gives his life in order to save his wife from suffering. How on earth could you say that this man is somehow doing such a thing for himself? The conscious reason for him to choose this option is simply because he wishes to save someone he loves from suffering.

If you cannot see how the above choice could be made for completely selfless reasons, then you have not loved someone to such an extent.

Thanks… sometimes I feel like people can’t decipher my high writing (which makes sense to me but not always others) but I’m glad in this case that wasn’t… … the case

anyways I don’t really see myself as a hive organism… but yeah, I think selflesness can exist.

Alderian
You say religious people are good because of the carrot and stick that is heaven and reward. This is mostly true.

But what say you about those who are athiest, and have acted very kindly, and they have good ethics, and treat people well despite not having any assumptions about punishment or reward, but then begin to believe in God, and later, develop a notion and belief of god and heaven and reward?

Because he loves his wife. It would make him feel terrible knowing that he had made that choice(the opposite one). It would have negative ramifications on him personally. You cannot find one single solitary choice that isnt self motivated somehow. The key is, thats not a “bad” thing. All disregard for ourselves and our species wouldnt be here.

In a related note, JEsus Christ WHERE IS THE SACRIFICE? HE is God, he knows he cant possibly lose, he had this scenario planned on back into enternity. Where is the sacrifice? What did he stand ot lose? HE just got ot go back to heaven as king pin ruler of the universe. THATS a sacriice?Maybe deservant of another thread…

  1. But what say you about those who are athiest, and have acted very kindly, and they have good ethics, and treat people well despite not having any assumptions about punishment or reward, but then begin to believe in God, and later, develop a notion and belief of god and heaven and reward?

I can’t speak for everyone, but it is usually to improve the quality of life here-and-now and in the future. Sometimes it is for enjoyment as well, and of course, the two combined. There is future incentive in this, but it is observable, thus it can be a real payback.

I have serious doubts as to whether this would be a conscious thought. Say if he had to make a decision within 2 seconds. What do you think will be going through his head? “I wouldn’t be able to live with myself if I didn’t save her” or “I can’t let my wife suffer?” The first is self motivated, the second is not. I myself can’t imagine thinking the first.

I think it is quite a stretch to blanket all choices and say that you “cannot find one single solitary choice that isn’t self motivated somehow”. Especially when it is hardly certain in the case above.

One could argue that any truly selfish act is merely a mistake. :slight_smile:

Rami.

or you could say that all selfish acts are a result of what is most desired by the performer.

Rami.

]

Its really quite mindblowingly simple. Her suffering would impact him, make him feel bad. It would make him suffer. Take out of your brain the opinion that “selfishness” is neccesarily bad. Its not in all cases. Everything is self motivated.

His love for her in the first place is self motivated and conditional. If she blew every guy in the neighborhood he’d no longer love her.[/code]
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PaleRider,

I don’t think it is neccesarily bad, this you have assumed. I just don’t think it is neccesarily universal.

Conditionality is irrelevant in the present context.

Rami,

The ‘right’ thing to do? I can assure you that the last thing on my mind would be making sure I do the ‘right’ thing in this circumstance. As I said, if this decision had to be made spontaneously, without reflection, the overiding thought would not be “Am I doing the right thing?”, “Will I suffer if I don’t do this?” etc, it would be immediately the thought of his wife suffering, and him being willing to do anything to stop it.

I think the analysis of people acting justly for selfish end, such as going to heaven, is overly simplified. There is more to doing good deeds than just some rational motivation. Most often, people have fears, and desires that go against what they know to be the right course of action and they have to overcome them to do the right thing. Also, even given a promise of rewards in the future, we still have to choose to want it, as it is human nature to live for the comforts of the moment. Doing good simply does not come automatically from rational motivation. There’s a lot of self denial and courage involved in the action.

In regard to the idea of “selfish heaven”, that’s depend on what you believe heaven is and what a good deed is. Is heaven a place that you go to because of your good deeds? Is a good deed just some external act that you act out regardless of your intentions (like do “good” deeds just to go to heaven)? These are complicated questions and different belief systems have different answers to these questions. They might not lead to your idea of the “selfish heaven”.

For instance, Christianity’s heaven is not a place where people go because of their good deeds. Instead, it depends solely on God’s grace (a key word) and one’s genuine repentence and acceptence of his grace. And what is repentence? Is it JUST doing something just for the selfish motive to go to heaven and avoid hell, like a reward and punishment scheme? Christianity’s answer is no. This is a very complicated issue. If you want to find out more, read C.S. Lewis’ “Mere Christianity”. It also has some philosophical thinking on the nature of morality that might answer your questions on morality. Hope this help.

I think that this argument breaks down into biology, like NoelyG started to touch on, which unfortunately breaks down into determinism/free will.

For instance there are studies which indicate that whenever someone makes a conscious decsion to do something. IE: Pick up a cup, The nerve cells responsable for the arm moving fire before a certain part in the brain does. Even after they calculated how long it would take for the brain to send the signal to the arm, there is a still a space of time in which the arm moves before the brain ‘tells’ it to. In other words, there could be a possibility in which your brain is watching your arm and we simply perceive ourselves as being responsable for the action.

I know that sound sketchy cause it is, I just barely remember hearing it lecture this year, but specifics aside, basically it cast doubt into ‘decisions’ and these are the basis of this argument we’re having here.

So if we live in a deterministic framework, then really there is no cause for this discussion at all, because it’s all out of your hands. However if you are blessed with free will, then it’s a different story.

I don’t know that story though… I thought i could go father with this but alas… no dice.

At the risk of sounding like a smartass, I’m not always sure freewill is a blessing… Perhaps not a curse, either, exactly. But a heavy responsibility to carry.

Ever type something, notice you typed it… but not ‘notice’ notice till someone points it out? Like someone reminds you of a thought you had but it wasn’t really processed?

Well that happened with ‘blessed’. somewhere in the back of my head I thought ‘maybe you should change that’ after I wrote it but… like I said, it was only in the back of my head.

WOW I need to go to sleep… this shift summer work is killin me

Bleh, it was supposed to say “One could argue that any truly selfless act is merely a mistake.” Changes the meaning quite a bit. :blush: