if that is true that means that we are unable to conceive of true religion.
that in itself would bound us a limit which would leave religion beyond the realm of existence.
which helps support my thesis of religion being a unusable tool
I’m not following. You answered in the negative but seem to want to differentiate between theory and conjecture. What exactly are you saying here? Let me ask it this way: Is there some theory that describes the creation of the universe in terms that would make said theory more useful than conjecture? If so, what is the theory and what about it makes it more useful than conjecture?
currently we are not at point of descibing the universe in terms of a coherent theory that would be distinguishable from conjecture.
that is why religion still exist today
but i am tring to show a trend of how the scope of religion has shrunk throughout the ages and will continue to do so until eventually it reaches the question of creation.
that is why ultimately religion is a question of creation
eddjar
Morals are only the degeneration of conscience which is a normal result in the absence of consciousness. Lacking consciousness we gradually lose perspective including emotional perspective as an unconditioned aspect of our being which is conscience. This gradual result has produced the emotional chaos of modern culture.
The intent of all the great teachings initiating with a conscious source is to restore human perspective as a middle in relation to “as above, so below”
The creation in itself is a flawed argument, because if one assumes that the universe must have had a creation, then one assumes that all things are created including god.
this creates an endless cycle of creation.
the argument then that is proposed is that god is eternal
if so why not all objects , why not the universe?
what happened
Well you brought it up. As I’ve said, I’m perfectly content to eliminate creation as an argument for or against God. It’s just that you mentioned this:
And so I was wondering if I have missed some theory that has somehow been proven that tells us why there is something rather than nothing. Or, for that matter, if there were some proven theories that would help us with societal or political questions, as you mentioned.
It’s probably me, but I’m just not seeing your argument as to why religion is a “broken tool.” Your premise seems to be that it’s one major function is to describe creation. What makes you think this? I must just be missing something. (I can be pretty slow).
I was a little side tracked about creation
as I said in my original post
we have out grown religion in respects to explain, govern, make ethical choices, and lastly to cope.
by outgrown, I mean that it was created for the masses, by upperclass society, to control society by creating a power greater than themselves.
throughout the centuries it has taken many differnt roles
I ask like in my original thread burden of proof- why the middleman
I do have an intersting conjecture of my own why there is something rather than nothin if you do want to hear it though
Because humans cannot govern themselves… Countries have Presents because the society cannot control its chaos within there animalistic primitive ways. They need some order, and a higher being much like the present is a way to control them. In the case of the United States, our president (Mr Bush) is a Christian. He controls the USA, while his Christian God controls him. Human nature almost always requires chaos with a control factor. Naturally we need a Government to control our chaos and keep the country orderly… I hope this can lead to some discussion on this and is only touching base with what can be a larger discussion.
also I never said there was a theory but rather the ability
you believe that religion is necessary to creat a control on government
in essence that would be true if all people bowed to their higher power ,
but in the case of president bush, he doesnt really make desions as a christian, instead he uses his religios persona to gain favor with the masses who are slaves to whatever garbage you feed them.
if he made choices based on religion he probalbly wouldn’t be so quick to go to war and would stop giving subsidies to multi-million dollar corpations and spread our surplus crops and industry with the starving world.
so in this case religion has becom a dangerous tool
instead of being a check on government it is a tool to gain more power
remember kings used religion to give sovereignty for absolute power
This is exactly my point, religion holds a control mechanism within the people of the world. For those who do not believe in such a higher power they themselves usually are more liberal and believe that change (or chaos) is good, and staying the same is bad. George Bush does use Christianity for power in both his life and government. He uses his Christian life style to gain popular vote because “Christians” by popular belief are “good” people. This makes trust come into play, same with God, Mr Bush trusts God because God is all Powerful and all Good, and all Knowing.
I still disagree, I do not think that a power hungry person gives two shits about what god thinks. they just use it for their own agenda
Bush happeneds to be more conserative becuse it plays into a sence of control like fascism
Or perhaps your over assumptions lead you astray? Do you personally know Bush? Have you met him? Probably not… His personal life is of his own free business and appears (in my opinion) to be a devout christian with christian morals. If you don’t believe this, please show me some evidential proof of this. note I’m not trying to create controvertial conversation, just more of a basis to show you that things might not always appear to be as they seem.end note, have you ever heard of the saying, “See what is, not what you think”? In this case a devout Christian (Mr Bush), who has said on television that he doesn’t believe Athiests should be allowed in this country, would in fact trust and give two shits might I ad, or atleast give 1 shit per day for a healthy standing point and relatively healthy body 
…
Trapped!
I would say that science has taken over where religion is dragging behind.
This Kolibri is a fine point in which I was going to mention but didn’t get to it in time. My personal belief is that Science is soon to become the Religion of the modern Age, because it is Science that has actually sustained life and has saved many lives over the course of time that science has played a major toll on society. Without science I do believe we would still be in the times of knights and dragonlore. The advancement in Communications and technology have furthered out experiences and connections to one another that I am able to speak with all of you… by means of atleast a small 1/2 centimeter by 1 centimeter POTs line (56k) to communicate with you and express in words the knowledge and questions I have.