I’ve been trying to express what I believe to be the necessity for the individual not just for their own sake but within society as well in contrast to the popular view of equality and sameness which IMO exists in our imagination and cannot have any value without the change in our being that can allow for it. This idea of levels of existence which the allegory of the cave represents is ancient and is the real message I believe of Plato’s cave allegory and Simone Weil describes my thinking far better than I can so if you’d like to participate in a mind stretch, consider her thoughts on Plato’s Allegory of the Cave.
My concern for this thread is the spiritual aspect though the whole allegory is extraordinary on several levels. But briefly as I understand it, the idea is that our conceptions of reality are only shadows and our fascination with them denies the higher reality and source of the shadows. It is very difficult for us to have a change of mind that allows for the change of direction that reveals this source represented by the sun. It appears to blind us to the realities we are accustomed to. But shortly this new perception would reveal how naive former perceptions were since they were only shadows. So basically Plato is describing the ascent and decent of the soul into the levels of being represented by existence inside the cave and outside the cave.
Now, coming out of the sun and not fully accustomed again to living in darkness, a person having experienced the light wants to share even though unsteady but is confronted with experts that at best only confuse everything and at worst kill him.
The question now becomes the value of the intellect in this matter of awakened sight. What knowledge can a sleeping man have? Yet unaware of our condition we create experts by the boatload who, while sound asleep, claim to explain everything with this "reason"of theirs.
This person who has experienced the light has the unenviable task of trying to relate the common sense of it to all these experts and their followers. You think Sisyphus had it tough? Not even boulders can offer resistance like an expert with his heels dug in.
So for the sake of non-experts with an inner knowing that there is something more than shadows, how are they helped by the one who now knows? Of course there is education but of what kind?
So lets get Simone Weil’s take on this since their are several interpretations.
The cave is the world and what binds us to its reflections is our imagination that takes the place of attention explained on the left of the page. Without attention we lose our awareness of the unchanging truths since the source of attention itself is God that reaches us on earth from consciousness at the level of the sun.
Captivation with life on earth for the soul keeps it in prison so intelligence as normally defined is really only a measurement of prison cell size:
Clicking over to the next page reveals what I believe should be the primary goal of education:
This would allow a person to think not only more clearly but to allow inner morality to become the aspect of thought necessary for it to reflect a human perspective.
Experts and “results” oriented fixations not to mention the lack of teachers with understanding would never allow for it publicly so the good of education will only come from private ventures that understand its value
Now the following quotation by Nietzsche begins to make sense:
It’s true because what we are doing excludes impartial thought. Right and wrong can make anything appear good or bad. Common sense has nothing to do with it.
But of course thought reflecting impartial common sense interferes with the solidarity of a current trend so it annoys the Great beast as I’ve been dealing with on the “Great Beast” thread.
Mow it appears so absurd that it must be true. The person having had this intense inner religious experience and what is collectively lost through our obsession with shadows must return to shadowland as the human thing to do in response to the human condition.
For the sake of understanding man’s nature, a person so enlightened must refuse power so as to attain being and help others who feel a similar calling.
I maintain that one real person of being, a true individual, does more good in the realistic unchanging sense through the emphasis on awakening than a thousand experts reciting platitudes about how we are all one. The great beast wants everything as it is. You can imagine what ever you want but the bottom line for the beast must continue to be business as usual. The efforts of such individuals that encourage awakening will inspire the deepest growls from this beast. Their task is far from pleasant and I humbly acknowledge all those like them of which Simone Weil was one.
It is very difficult for us to have a change of mind that allows for the change of direction that reveals this source represented by the sun.
Plato did not want to discuss it, but Plato’s cave, by tradition far older than Plato, actually has not one, but two “passages”, for it is a nexus more than a lived space, a crossroads of the soul. The “second passage” moves deeper into, down through the cave, and is a kind of exit as well, as one is exposed to and in transmuted by the lived-through drama of the shadows.
It does make sense cosmologically. The cosmological level of earth is unique in the universe since it is the place in which the mechanically evolving unconscious comes into contact with consciousness. The laws of evolution invite us towards consciousness normal for the level of the sun and man’s evolution while the laws of involution pull the energies comprising the essence of man further into creation and away from the center together with all the life force energies of organic life at death which would be the normal result of enchantment with the drama of the shadows. The cave then is the place where a certain choice becomes possible concerning evolution.
My understanding of this is that morality can be derived from clear and distinct ideas (or feelings) when regarding a certain path of action. Is (one of) your point that out of the cave, morality is clearly apparent, but within the cave morality is only knowable after clear reflection or introspection?
Is this saying that it is only possible to have knowledge of this innate morality once one has emerged from the cave, and one has been illuminated?
What a man does shows who he is and what is in his heart. The two are usually inextricable. Anyway, it’s not like we can properly judge ourselves or others anyway.
I believe that conditioned morality exists for us because we’ve lost the ability for our being to consciously appreciate the objective good. The essence of religion Is basically concerned with this loss. This idea often appears repulsive since this word “good” carries for many an insipid connotation. But this again is something that has been conditioned in us since we live under imagination.
This is why it is easy find what both Socrates and Simone Weil did absurd. In Socrates case when in prison Crito encourages escape. But Socrates rejects this and appears to act on principle rather than self interest. The importance for me is that there must be something gained by this. Rather than avoiding the hardships man is exposed to,Simone purposely put herself in the midst of it. It is as though to really experience imagination and its effects for what it is allows for the help necessary for a person or as Socrates said “inner man” to rise in the direction of this objective good.
Jesus said: “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.” This appears to be the same idea. Assuming the “good” or the world of forms man can have access to, it requires becoming aware of being in caught in the cave. Otherwise the idea of forms is just another projection from the shadows of the cave.
The cave teaches morality forits subjective purpose while the “sun” reveals it. This is what I believe Simone is getting at when she asserts that. True morality is purely Internal
If one stays in the cave, however easily one will be able to observe all the external rules of virtue, one will never be virtuous. Intellectual life and moral life are one.
What Plato calls the world of what passes away, these are things in so far as one thinks of them in relation to our passions.
The "sun"in the allegory reveals man’s potential allowing man to become conscious of it which is continually sacrificed to the Great Beast and the cave. Of course, as Plato points out, it is scoffed at and ridiculed in accordance with imagination. Yet it is consciousness that sustains it through the awareness of the power of this imagination.
Speaking personally, this is one of the great values of considering the human condition as levels. In the allegory, the cave and the sun represent two distinct levels of consciousness. From the level of the sun the deception of the cave serves no purpose other than to deny consciousness and the objective good it becomes a part of. The dominance of the subjective morality of the cave based on right and wrong as conditioned responses, prevents a person from the conscious awareness even though many will swear they are doing God’s will.
I agree but don’t say it too loudly or you will entice a growl from the Great Beast. This is why I’ve come to the conclusion it is better to begin by observing and admitting that we don’t have it and live in contradiction. This at least provides the humility to open the door to experience the light of the “sun” rather than strive for contentment in flights of fantasy.
The cave allegory and what it represents in relation to the dominance of imagination really opens new worlds as to the legitimacy of how we see ourselves and our motives in relation to the "good"and how it is perceived and defined. It has for me.
Not necessarily. This is what is represented in the Bible as Jesus argument with the Pharisees. Appearance does not necessarily reflect what the person really is.
I agree that as we are it is impossible to really judge ourselves. It takes sincere attempts to see oneself without jusgement. Yet, according to the allegory, such self knowledge is necessary for those interested in what the light of the sun reveals.
This is an interesting point. My reading of this is that, say perhaps one makes the journey out of the cave, becomes aware of ‘true’ morality and then returns to the cave to impart his/her knowlegde on those within the cave. Some follow the teachings of this person, but only simplistically, linearly or in a shallow way. For them to display true morality (and be virtuous), they must journey outside the cave themselves. Therefore, one must intellectually experience morality in all its totality to be virtuous.
Is this your understanding also?
An interesting question that I have is whether one can display this morality authentically without making a conscious effort to attain a higher level of existence. Can one intellectually understand ‘good’ (through ‘natural’ properties of their character and/or experiences) and behave accordingly without making a conscious decision to search for ‘good’? Or is this behaviour simply absolute morality manisfesting itself within the consciousness of this individual? Or is it that if this person understands what is ‘good’, then they have already made the journey from the cave without actually being conscious of it? Is it possible to understand ‘good’ without making a conscious decision to search for it?
My understanding of it is that the sun in this allegory is not belief or faith, but rather truth or good, in its absolute form. The shadows that are seen by the prisoners are caused by this source, but they are essentially distorted, thus decieving the prisoners about true knowledge.
My difficulty now is, leaving the allegory behind, is it possible to understand this ‘good’ or truth without making a conscious decision to search for it? Is in more innate in some than others? Or does it have to be coupled with intellectual concentration to discover the truth in it’s entirety, rather than in partially, which may be the case otherwise?
I meant that was how I thought it was being discussed in this particular interpretation. I personally think it means the free will to “see” both experientially and through the mind’s eye. The sun is there, but in the cave it is controlled so all that can be seen are shadows.
No.
The allegory works for this, so I’m reeling it back in if that’s okay.
The unshackled cave-dweller will not come any closer to discovering the truth unless she stands up and walks outside. Even if he studies the teachings of those who have seen outside the cave, he still can only have a 2 dimensional understanding based on his 2 dimensional cave reality. She must make her own journey to fully appreciate the teachings.
A person who has lived apart from human contact their whole lives shouldn’t be praised for never hurting another human being. It has no meaning, like belief without understanding has no meaning.
[/quote]
Nicely said. My thought is though, can this person, who is seeing the two-dimensional projection on the wall, use reason to deduce the truth of the source (and the three dimensional nature of things) without becoming unshackled? Or does this intellectual activity or deduction equate to an unshackling?
I believe so. Morality though is often just considered as what a person does. But the internal morality being referred to exists within a person but is dominated by the shadows of the cave.
Did you see the movie “Groundhog Day?” It dealt with this in a deep but humorous way. Our hero the weatherman had an ego a mile long that dominated his life. He was completely immersed in the cave. However as Groundhog day kept repeating (eternal recurrence) gradually he became able to see the situation without his ego because this continual repetition made his ego useless. What is there to be egotistical about going around in a circle on Groundhog Day?
When the ego dropped he started to gain a higher perspective. This is the influence of the Sun. This perspective allowed him to see the lunacy that was occurring and he began to feel compassion rather than revulsion for these fools he once believed as beneath him. Now he was experiencing the light of the sun on his being awakening internal morality.
This was the expression of inner morality. It was natural for him but his acquired egotism established from life in the cave, made him oblivious of it.
This raises the question of the “follower” you mentioned. the skilled teacher allows for this experience of perspective. This is why those like Simone Weil don’t shy from the raw experience even at the expense of revealing their own faults. The more a person frees themselves from the limitations of this corrupt egotism, the more they can be fed from the sun in the allegory. This following is not copying behavior but acquiring the experience that makes the expression of inner morality natural for a balanced human being that values both the freeing influence of the sun and concern for the human condition in the cave. This understanding I believe is more than intellectual but emotional as well.
It’s not really an aim for a higher existence as feeling that everyday life is somehow lacking in meaning as implied in Ecclesiastes. If you’re hungry, you look for something to eat. The search is then for meaning and how to be a part of it and live in accordance with it.
Its not that we are unaware of the “good” but being the “wretched man” or existing as a plurality, the majority of our being does not want it. It gets lost in the shuffle. Consider how Simone Weil puts it:
But this is security. How many can see this monotony for what it is and consciously become open to experience? A person lacking in need, will and consciousness will, after mild protests, fall in line with conditioning and unconsciously follow the flow of these natural patterns as do the seasons and birth, life, and death of civilizations. Dust to dust.
How many would agree with Simone where she says"
But this is awakening to our presence in the cave. It is a form of prison cell. The assertion though is that it is perspective is as valuable if not more Than knowledge in the cause of freedom from the psychological restrictions of the cave. But, this is scorned as “elitism.” This humility is not wanted
How is perspective acquired as in the case of the weatherman in Groundhog Day? He had many lifetimes or repetitions of the day to finally come to see how he was denying himself the greater reality. But we can consciously become aware in spite of our normal inclinations to fall back into our normal egotism. This isn’t learning anything new but just impartially seeing what is there with the help from the direction of the “sun”.
From the Simone site:
Can moral stamina withstand the limiting perceived glories of the intellect without conscious awareness? As the “wretched man,” I don’t believe so.
Hi shyster
Well put. Normally I believe we try to put these teachings such as Plato’s cave allegory into this dualistic two dimensional perspective. What knowledge can the "sleeping"man have? It is the teaching itself that strives against it.
Presuming you Noely and Dunamis all find something important in Plato’s Cave allegory, are you as disenchated with as I am with modern education and its emphasis on knowledge, self esteem, and satisfying the needs of the “Great Beast” rather than perspective or what was experientially learned by the weatherman in Goundhog Day ?
Presuming you Noely and Dunamis all find something important in Plato’s Cave allegory, are you as disenchated with as I am with modern education and its emphasis on knowledge, self esteem, and satisfying the needs of the “Great Beast” rather than perspective or what was experientially learned by the weatherman in Goundhog Day ?
[/quote]
I’m pasting the few parts I read because the post is more than 20-30 lines long and the content is full of other quotes and replies.
This explains exactly why I homeschool. I learn what I want to learn and it is perfectly substantial to what is required by the state I’m governed in, but better yet, I posess the reason for it, and I find it through my own means. That, I know, is the way that I’m naturally configured to learn.
This may be a good attitude to establish a niche in continuing Cave life, but the Cave alegory is about the advantages of leaving the Cave which requires more then following a preconception of good and bad, worthless or valuable. It is about developing perspective with help from above represented by the sun.
Mhmm, no implications of good or bad here.
Plato mentions a whole and the sections within it, how we look at one piece and it leads to another. How a copy of a copy gets more disfigured the furthur away it is in a sequence or chain reaction, but there are segments of truth in all things that lead to a defined compilation. That teachers teach what they’ve been taught and over time its outcome on education. Lovely!
Perhaps. I myself have not personally experienced the perspective shift detailed in the allegory, but that is not to say that I don’t believe such an experience can occur. The teaching of knowledge of the apparent world is of course necessary for the development of minds that will operate in the apparent world. But as you have said, this is practically all that is taught, along with a perhaps overstated confidence in the ‘truth’ of such knowledge.
What I think is needed in education is the admittance and celebration of doubt. The general approach should be along the lines of “At this point in time, this is how we believe things to be, but this perspective/way of looking at things could be wrong”. In this way, we may avoid the Dr S’s of the world who have such confidence (dare I say, faith) in the current knowledge of the apparent world as to summarily dismiss any alternatives to this perspective.
The progress and success of science for instance, at the general level of understanding that the general public enjoys, seems to promote this confidence. However, doubt is what fuels science, and at the low levels of understanding and detail, there is still much mystery and doubt about the reality that we now profess to understand. Richard Feynman, the great theorist of Quantum Electrodynamics (QED), on numerous occasions wrote of the importance of doubt and uncertainty.
I may be getting off track here, but these are my thoughts.
