Illusion and Reality

nick,

(1) No, we are capable of much more.

(2) don’t you mean “if no”? The best way to continue if you want to escape the trap of desire, is to remove desire. If you want moderation, you can still enjoy being in the mud and still feel the tinges of enlightenment.

(3) I don’t want to live in a world where something doesn’t matter.

(4) Who determines “what is more real”? Are my trials more real or more difficult than your own? Do I see the sky in a deeper shade of blue than you? Does that make it “more” real?

The weight of subjective reality.

(5) it’s not about “imagining” reality, it’s about HOW you view reality. Through the fog colored illusive glasses of desire, or through the objective transcendental glasses.

Reality looks very different depending on how you view it.

If reality changes is it real?

My answer was most pointed. We can learn from all people, regardless of their guru status. To make a value judgement based on hearsay is not really my style. It’s a matter of penetration and realisation my dear.

As far as Osho’s following in India, not really my cup of tea dear, I’m certainly no Sanyasin, but some of his writing is so deeply profound and moving that one is directed right to the heart.

His ashram in India, have you been?

A

The first definition of illusion is:

(noun) 1 the action of deceiving; b (1) : the state or fact of being intellectually deceived or misled

So, tentative…

in this particular perspectiive would you consider someone who creates an illusion to another deceitful? Or does the illusion stand on its own - out there for anyone to deceive themselves. Is there culpability in creatiing an ongoing illusion to another? Also, doesn’t that illusion, if taken seriously by that person, then a reality? Isn’t reality that which feels real to a person… or do you think their reality is just an illusion as well?

Now, I feel like Norm Crosby.

LOL! Not many of us around here old enough to get that reference, Bess. Good one.

Hi Bessy,

There is no such thing as creating an illusion for another person. We create our own illusions. Others may support that illusion for benevolent of malovent reasons, but illusion is strictly our own creation.

Illusion can become a reality, although the line gets a little fuzzy here, but yes, many people take their illusions AS reality. Have you ever used the phrase, “get real”? With yourself? With others? That’s a rather telling statement, no? Get real implies a lack of reality, being lost in illusion, does it not?

That which is real and that which is illusion is for each individual to grapple with. Unfortunately, life doesn’t come with an operators manual. We’re all in the same swamp.

JT

Hey JT,

I’m up to my knees in it, but at least the water is nice and cool on this sticky day.

Thanks for the response!

Jerry: you old man, you.

Another thing… does a true collective reality even exist? We are all immersed in our own reality which is different from everyone else’s driven by our own gene pool and experience. Every individual can take the same walk, open the same door, look in the same room and have a totally different reality. So, isn’t reality completely relative? And, if that is true, that would make illusion even more so. The illusions that we project (if they are our own) should have no effect at all on others if collective reality doesn’t, in fact, exist.

Given the innate, selfish nature of the beast’s reality, I am surprised relationships between humans last for any length of time at all.

Hi Bess,

Our perceptions differ vastly but they are perceptions none the less. Perceptions come from the realm of duality. We all have our personal truths but we all have access to Truth.

A

Hi Angel,

Could you expound on your definition of duality? The truth you speak of - is it the Truth (capital T… the big kahuna truth that you mean?) Isn’t the idea of one truth just a projection of what you as an individual are searching for? What if there isn’t one Truth? (if that is what you meant).

Isn’t a notion of that sort of truth coming from a faith-driven perspective only? (I say that with respect because I do see life that way)

BUT… What about those who have no spiritual side and think they just live and die… with little spiritual growth or connection. Sometimes it just seems like you assume that everyone thinks like you do. They don’t.

Duality is day and night, male and female, the sun and the moon. It’s purpose is balance. Balance needs a balance point. A centre point. The entire world can be in chaos but if we are in our centre, the entire world is in harmony. Everything fits together, everything has a place and a time and a purpose.

From where I’m sitting, I can see the trees outside my window. I can see the herbs that I nurture, the flowers, can hear the birds sing, feel the breeze on my skin. I can see the details of my life, the big ones the small ones, all the things that make up my life. My unique individual story.

Imagine for a moment that I had wings. Imagine that I could fly up into the sky and out into space. From there I could look back and I could see earth. From there I don’t see the tree, the herbs that I nurture, the flowers, the birds singing, I don’t feel the breeze on my skin. I don’t see MY life. My experience is that Earth and all it’s inhabitants and all the details of everybodies’ lives are all One thing.

The thing that causes the trees to grow, causes the wind to blow, causes my lungs to breathe, my heart to beat, that thing, that single ineffable thing, let’s call it Truth. Without that single thing, none of it would exist.

I dunno, have you looked into your child’s eyes recently? Have you not seen Truth there? Have you not looked into the mirror and seen yourself?

But what of them? If they don’t know they are spirit, does that mean they are not spirit?

I’m sure it seems that way sometimes, it is however clear to me that there are very few who see things the way I do.

A

Angel,

I like the way you think, and your explanation to me was wonderful. I just wish I could be as clear with my thoughts on my own spirit. I believe you are right (if there is such a thing) but the cynical thoughts and actions of others bring me down (or off center, as you put it)

Thanks.

Hi Bess,

When our mind is focussed inward to that which is Real and eternal, all illusions fall away. When the mind is focussed inward then the actions and opinions of others matter little because we see things as they really are. We see people as they really are because we see ourselves as we really are and we reflect that in the other person. This is LOVE.

Do not remain in the dualistic state;
Avoid such pursuits carefully.
If there is even a trace
Of this and that, right and wrong,
The Mind-essence will be lost in confusion.
Although all dualities come from the One,
Do not be attached even to this One.
When the mind exists undisturbed in the Way,
Nothing in the world can offend,
And when a thing can no longer offend,
It ceases to exist in the old way.

• Seng Ts’an (d. 606)

A

Well I “penetrated” while travelling in India.
I also read osho,s books And met several people who had just come from osho,s ahraams there .

It was a free for all they said. And they were into it also. Of course, I never judged , but sat and listened to the “spiritual enlightenment” they had recieved.

Which came in the form of bowls of E and sex with multiple partners. With the occasional mention of a spirit and the art of tantra thrown in.

Like hey…its like…totally freeing people from their repressed states learnt from a society that frowns upon nudity and the sexual act man

Religions are created by people. Their interpretation of the teachings.

It is better to reserve your judgement for yourself Iron Dog. I’ll reserve my judgement for myself.

Peace
A

Your right. I think osho was a fraud , like Kahlil Gibran , who,s words speak in particular to the vunerable and those trying to justify being caught up in alchoholism cocaine and ecstasy while living what they would call a “spiritually awakened life”.

But I should just reserve that for myself. People are entitled to live how they like.

Of course I meant you should judge yourself dear. I didn’t mean you should keep your judgements to yourself.

A

Judge myself according to what?

Does Reality exist only within me or in my mind? No, I experience other sentient beings outside of me in as much as they contradict me or have a different interpretation of similar experiences. But this does show that we all seem to have a subjective take on what we experience.

Is the Ultimate Reality above and beyond the limits of material experience? Yes, it does seem so. Even if God were a collective imagination, something would seem to bind the collective.

I think that Spirituality is an attribute of Mankind that is generally suppressed, and that Religion begins as the expression of that Spirituality. However, what often happens is that second and third or other later generations fail to have the basic spirituality themselves, but instead rely upon the authority of the first. This causes an insecurity and distrust of people who forgo religion for spirituality.

Mainstream Religion - whether here in Europe or in America - appears to me to be insecure, nervous, and worried about “spooks in the dark”. The confidence, assurance and intuitive insight that I read about in the Gospels seems to have been foregone for the rush for heaven that Paul seems to have (perhaps unknowingly) incited. The Mystics of all Religions have continually pointed to this.

Shalom
Bob

no such thing as reality unless you want to talk about feelings
no such thing as illusion unless you don’t notice you are trapt

how come my lectures work better than that of the bible?

i feel so used…oh well…better me than any of you