tremble, believers: here's a new proof of God's nonexistence

As I said before please stay on Topic and if you have any posts such as your previous and current posting on this thread that do not stay on topic please use the Rant House or Mundane Babble forum

 Thanks and have a nice day   :slight_smile: 

On the issue at hand for this Thread I would say explaining the ultimate existance of God can really go both ways… Strictly because the human mind cannot perceive past what is Time/Space/and current visual perception… We cannot see through the eyes of God the beholder of the Universe because as far as we can tell… There are no Eyes to look through, Only the Bible. Futile attempts to explain the universe have come and gone and will come and Go for eternity.

The Ultimate truth of it all is that everyday thousands of people find out the truth the moment they die. Right now as your reading this… someone is finding out for us, if God is real… The sad part is we cannot know because they cannot tell.

There is a song by Imagika (sp?) I believe that says, “The living only see whats i front of them, but the dead… they see all” and I would say this comes into play here as a sense of the dead who go to heaven know all as they as now enlightened with the state of glory amongst God… but us as the living we can only see whats in front of us… we cannot perceive whats after us.

I think we have to understand that “Believers” give God these attributes, but whether they are so is something we don’t really know or understand. The “nature” of God is something unknown behind the metaphor “God”.

I think we tend to give the Ultimate Reality attributes that we take from our lives and that we would like to see a “God” to have. These attributes are really more of an expression of what we are collectively conscious of being morally acceptable in humanity. It all has a pedagogic effect, trying to bring an unripe humanity to ripeness by showing what maturity could be – which, I assume, is what “God” would be.

But if my assumption is right, maturity is one of the few attributes that we can give God with a reasonable chance of accuracy. But even here, do we know? Genesis is said to present an immature God in the story of Adam and Eve, indicating that he is practising with mankind before it all goes terribly wrong. Can we know who is right?

For me it is enough to say that “God is …” and I refuse to tremble, since I can’t see a new proof of God’s nonexistence

Shalom

Hello

I like your point but I feel you need to work on it some more. Like use the I think it is Job, correct me if I’m wrong, were God makes a bet with the Devil that no matter what he does to Job that Job will still have faith in God. That surelly shows that God cannot be all good. Or what is the story where for God a guy goes and almost sacrafices his son because God wanted him to? Well if I’m wrong on any of my stories then I’m sorry. It is a boring read so I don’t remember a lot.

EZ$

God is Illusion created by reality, and reality is Illusion created by God.
Everything that exist is God, including You. And You are all that Matters.
Sin is another Illusion created by Reality, Truth is, everything that exist is
Good. It is plain Math, multiply God with zero(which is # for Everything), and result is good.
If I got state of mind that you got, I would rather do something else
then debating existence of Air, with religious fanatics.
Remeber, don’t seek knowledge of good and evil, because you will end up
chasing your imagination. And I am sure, you know better.

                      much love for your life !

Hi EZ$, all,

From what i have heard and read, based on the Job and Abraham stories, it seems that people are tested by God when they deserve to be tested. I can elaborate if anyone wants to hear it.

As for Samkhya’s post, if God is both good and free, why would He choose to do evil? (rhetorical question)

Fear and Trembling because God is existent,
mrn

heh. nobody ever loved me for a good reason. so, in my experience, you are talking outta yer arse.

Hi mrn

Well I feel that even if the deserve testing that does not make what God did a good thing.

EZ$

“Spare the rod and spoil the child.”
(as the Bible also says. Proverbs 13:24)

A human being might be worthy of love because a human being made a good choice. Or maybe a human being is worthy of love because he or she exists and their good choices are worthy of praise or admiration, but not love.

What is Love? Love is more than admiration. Love at the core is acceptance. Do you Accept God? Do you Accept the Other?

This is one of the lessons of the Book of Job. There God is Other. God is at a whole different level.

You’re not funny even if you tried.

In your argument, God will not be able to sin because of His attribute: Holiness.

You only compare power to unlimited freedom because of your sinful nature. You have tainted the definition of all-powerful.

That’s because you have forgotten that He is all holy, that He cannot do anything against His own attribute.

This consistency is on the contrary, the reason why He’s so worthy of love and worship.

For God cannot sin that He is worthy of love. Why would you want to love a God that can sin?

God can do everything that is not against His attribute.

MOREOVER, the definition of sin will be: to be against God. If God sins, He’s suicidal and contradictive. Something holy cannot sin. Something white cannot be black. If God is contradictive He is not God.

And the one who’s contradictive in the end is you, not God.

… And your argument isn’t new either.

It seems another lesson is that God doesn’t put up with guff like continually sacrificing in case your children sin – instead of getting the children to stop sinning. And wives who encourage their husbands to blaspheme. And great displeasure is taken over a wealthy man mocking the poor. (As a friend pointed out to our class, Job says he does. [Sorry, can’t find the verse.])

Now think about THAT!

God’s not that foreign to us.

mrn,
lucky man to know (conocer) good people

samkya,

why you’re hypothesis is interesting you are only talking about one aspect of love, conditional love. The whole point of enlightenment and becoming more “god-like” if you will, is to love “unconditionally” also called “agape” love by christians (who rarely practice it.)

a counter example to you’re existence, model is this:

Bush is capable of good decisions,

Bush makes bad decisions.

Therefore Bush is unworthy of my love,

Therefore Bush does not exist.

Yet we know that Bush DOES exist, even if I do not love him.

Sâmkhya

your intentions may be noble, but the effort is wasted
because if there is a god, he’s above logic anyway…

’ depends on how one defines God. I feel free to probe into a conception of God (after which God is within the reach of reason).

Believers hold that God is both all-powerful and worthy of love (is not it?).
O- I would say that the centrality of love, that God loves us so much that he sent his only son blah, blah, blah, and that we must love him because he is worthy of praise and our love etc, is a christian development. For the israelite, it was enough to fear God.

If God cannot sin, he cannot be praised for being God, because he has no choice. For someone to be praised (or blamed), he must be responsible, and this supposes free will, and this supposes that what he does could have not be done.
O- The response to your question could be:

1. Read Genesis, where God regrets making man; and Jonah, where God changes his mind about wiping out the city of Nineveh.
2. Read the entire new testament where the philosophy is given that God did not need to save man, for man is unworthy of his salvation, but had mercy, and mercy is possible if one stays his hand; it presupposes that He was on his way to an action, your total annihilation, but choose to give you one last chance blah, blah, blah…

If God can sin, it means that flaws and weakness have some grip over him, and this can’t be reconciled with omnipotence.
O- Who gave the Ten Commandments? We could discuss the purpose of Law and to whom it applies and in what degree, but short of that we have to say that often the originator of a law is not the judge or lawmaker but the majority of the community. It could be that the people, that humanity imagined God, that their collective subjectivity became objectified, externalized and forgotten. In the process, what they took from themselves they replaced in their God, thus they removed their belief that man could be sinless and had to posit it on God. God is sinless that we may sin. If both God and man were wicked, what good is that to humanity? If both God and man were sinless, what use can we have for a God, when we are that ourselves?

Therefore, God cannot be both things. A God who is both things cannot exist.
O- Your reason is your God. A truly omnipotent being is a circle at the same time it is a triangle. Otherwise, God is not God but Geometry is truly The God of God. Theoretical theology has for centuries plagirized the classics, for it is the highest achievement of man and also the bastion of it’s enemies, but it my belief that if God is constrained by my abstractions, math and logic, then he is limited by them as I am, thus he is a servant to them as I am, and if that is the case, what hope can a christian really have for a miracle.
If a christian does say, as you do, that “God cannot be both things”, his faith is dead, his God is dead.

We do not praise god for not making sin, we praise him for our well-being, our health, our prosperous life, etc.

[size=150]Religion is an experience.[/size]

why dont you atheists just go to church for once and find what religion is all about? you people are standing beside the pool pondering for eternity whether the water is warm or cold. just jump in and find out.

Huh? God is the Alpha…he is perfect, we are all degradation from perfection and less perfect. It is not that God does not have a choice, it is that he is perfect and everything else is imperfect.

Pinnacle of Reason wrote:

I’ve gone. I’ve fasted. I’ve felt deeply within my being the closeness to god. I was touched in a profound way inwardly. Why? Because that’s what not eating and standing for a day, coupled with enormous amounts of guilt over commited “sins,” and memories of dead loved ones, and prayers (hopeful pleas) to an ideal idea of the divine, will do.

Was it beautiful? Yes. Was it pollyanna, and a psychlogical/phsyiological response to emotional stress? Yes. So do I believe in God?

No. Has this eliminated guilt – a major source of terrible emotional stress and pain?

Yes. Do I feel lighter, more free, more authentic?

Yes. Can I still feel these same beautiful emotions, these religious experiences, outside of the place of worship?

Yes. However, I grant that the negative aspect to this loss of faith, is my optimism is now a pessimism. Is this good or bad?

Depends on how you look at it.

I can find the optimism, the postive, within the pessimistic world view – and believe me, there is a lot of nourishment for my being to be found, even within an ultimatly pessimistic framework.

So please, do not make the inductive jump, that because one experiences, what some term a “religious experience,” that it is a justification, or proof, for his royal holiness.

it has been far too long since i disgraced these halls with my presence.
but that’s not important.

samkhya, how can you possibly hold true the statement that there is nothing beyond us? there is far too much proof that at the very least, something exists, if not God himself. and the standards you hold him to, namely that he cannot exist if he cannot be worthy of love, are severely opinionated. these are just the standards that you personally hold someone to to be worthy of your love. it’s my personal belief that someone who understands god for who he is would simply find it psychologically impossible not to love him.

i dont think god is incapable of sin. (this may sound blasphemous, but work with me for a moment.) if god were truly incapable of sin, what would be the purpose of jesus being tempted by satan three times? satan, having been an angel once, would know god so much better than us… wouldn’t he realize that his efforts are frivolous? god simply chooses not to sin, meaning he is entirely worthy of our love.