Actually I’ve felt this both in my search. When I first came into contact with esoteric ideas I was very much the egotistical hard drinking musician and quite honestly I’d probably be dead now if it wasn’t for getting my inner ass kicked. I always had a sense that there were hidden realities behind abstract ideas but I didn’t understand it nor did any around me that professed to.
The shock was very intense and all of a sudden it was clear that what I had thought made no sense everything was happening exactly as it must. I Literally was in awe. I felt humble but not at all humiliated since there was no corrupt ego involved in my experience. I saw that I understood nothing in relation to what was out there but felt no condemnation or persecution.
I had experienced humiliation before but never humility and it was completely different since for a while, I was not burdened with my corrupt ego.
This is why Simone Weil’s explanation of prestige is so important for me. I believe it is more than simple answers but a need for prestige that from lack of understanding, can easily be acquired artificially through being manipulated.
But that is not to say that no one is doing anything. Of course the majority caught up in it may be trapped but those in Plato’s cave that have gone out, seen the light, experienced reality, and returned, maybe their effects buffer a situation that would be a complete disaster without their subtle influence on our collective being.
From the Buddhist perspective, does the Bodhisattva do any real good? A Bodhisattva is basically one having come out of Plato’s cave and returns. I wonder what life would be like without the subtle influences of these people from whatever conscious path they arise.
This is perhaps why the Dao De Ching resonated with me. Full of external knowing, an invitation to ‘empty out’ and begin looking inwardly made perfect sense to me. Oddly, I never thought of this as mysticism, but simply an understanding that cleared away the chaff and left my reality free of illusion. (well, mostly free of illusion) I guess if mysticism was any part of that, it was in seeing the line of demarcation between that which I can know and not know. The ‘ineffable’ thing that everyone fights with. The creeping insiduous nature of duality creates that constant battle within ourselves, and yes, that quiet space to pause and perform our ‘reality check’ may be the most important part of our experiencing.
You fail to recognise that, I don’t want people to believe anything. I want people to be who they are. In my" religion " God have control over your life, in your, you believe your life have control over God.
Because you believe in Prayer.
Christian Religion is Man made doctrine, not God’s.
And just like man, it have birth, life and death.
Death of all religions (christian included) is Rev 20:6 , Daniel 2:34,35,
Joel 2:28-32 , is what Christians believe to be second coming of God, or for Jews, first.
For those who know, Jesus was God,( then ), there is only one “church” of
living God, and it was promised by God in Matthew 16:17,18,19
I guess, you’re one of those, who believe (that Jesus was God, then)
When I hear the word “esoteric†I fall into the assumption that you are talking about an enlightened inner circle, which is why I told you elsewhere that it seemed an elitist idea, but I suppose the word is a bit like “occult†which is used in medicine to describe inner (hidden or not readily apparent) bleeding for example. Perhaps you are talking about the inner truth, or about something that isn’t widely known. In that way there is a lot that could be deemed “esotericâ€.
I think the humiliation that I and others have felt is something subjective, since what humiliated me seemed quite normal to others, but it aided the development of humbleness. I was awe-struck too a number of times, for example when the storyline carried the message and wasn’t interrupted by interpretation, when words became human-beings in the service of love, when the absolute simplicity of the message hit me.
Of course, but we mean the same thing here.
Agreed, but the indifference of the Sage isn’t reactionary, like ours generally is, but is content to follow Tao. I think that our greatest problem collectively lies in being lost up the creek without a paddle because out of a lack of indifference we have driven ourselves into the state the world is now. We are using up the worlds resources in record time, creating poverty and all for the dream of a better world. There is definitely something wrong there.
Basically we can’t resist, we can’t say “No†to developments, we can’t put spiritual health and well-being first, and we can’t see that the more we do, the less we achieve.
Exactly! Things can have various names and some things just are. Unfortunately we rely too much upon words and names, fads and objects and lack the freedom of emptiness or no-thingness. We are all caught up in a net of obsessions and mania, pretending that we are bigger when we own things or know things, failing to see the material dwarf who is a spiritual giant.
Yes, the struggle at Peniel (Gen 32:30) can wrench the socket but you are blessed with Jacob and have seen the appearance of the Ineffable, realising that it is full of favour towards you. You also realise that you have to be careful, because the adversary is in your own limbs.
What is so wrong with an enlightened inner circle? If you bring 100 of the greatest mathematicians to a convention, it would be an elite group.
Esoteric means inner. In esoteric Christianity it relates to relativity of being and re-birth. No one is excluded. It isn’t wanted. People that work towards and experientially suffer the reality of their own being for the sake of understanding and human potential and have acquired something are an elite group. So it is more than not widely known but also not wanted. It is an elite group by default.
We make the mistake of thinking that we don’t know enough facts. If we had more facts and more education, it would be different. But this is not the case. The problem isn’t facts or knowledge, it is our “being”. We already know enough, we just don’t understand it. Our being doesn’t allow it. Our being attracts our life both individually and collectively. Especially in the West, we don’t appreciate the importance of “being” and concentrate on knowledge. And if one of the main features of our being is "sleep"in the esoteric sense, what is the value of knowledge to a sleeping man?
This is why I dislike all these platitudes and such. They don’t allow us to experience the reality of our situation and it is only through such experiences that our being is effected in a positive sense towards awakening. Then knowledge can provide real meaning.
Here’s Rock solid clarification, straight from Spirit of #1 Player of them all,
Living God, that used to be called Jesus from Nazareth.
Your Topic dear Bob was " The Challenge of The New Age " and this is
what I’ve told you, and you managed to ignore, which is perfectly OK with Me.
This is NIV
Luke 21:5,6 Jesus Foretells the Future )
" Signs of the End of the Age "
5 " Some of His Disciples were remarking about how the Temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus
said.
6 " As for what you see here, the Time will come when not one stone will
be left on another, every one of them will be thrown down. "
This is what is going to happend with churches, in meaning of Authority,
as Logical transition from Life to Eternal Existance.
And that moment is very near.
You dear Bob, are Super Inteligent Person, in wrong state of Mind, you got Hint of Difference between Truth and Faith, Hopefuly, you are one of
“Chosen Ones” and very soon, you’ll be able to Feel that.
Until then, just try to do your best, or keep pretending.
It’s all Good
Yes, but there are many factors that seem perfectly normal and take away the hope that to do the things these people did, you have to be somehow deranged. That means that these things are possible today in other societies than the German, Japanese, Turkish etc. when these factors come together.
You have to remember that Germany is nearly the opposite to what it was in the 1930`s and that the book is a sound scientific study. This has nothing to do with national pride or excuses. It is also a warning that the opinion that only the Germans could do something like this, or that you have to be deranged, just isn’t true. Effectively it was efficiency that made the Holocaust possible in that nationalistic European climate of the day - even some Jews were nationalists!
I wouldn’t want to say that Jesus is predicting the future, but that he is pointing to the fact that Spirituality doesn’t need Temples of Stone, which is what King David had been told long before. In that time it was already known that empires and buildings disappear – the first Temple had, other cult sites had, the Egyptian and Babylonian temples had disappeared, so why shouldn’t this one disappear?
Rather, when talking to the Samaritan woman who had mentioned the argument between Jews and Samaritans about the place of worship, Jesus replies, “there cometh an hour, and it now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also doth seek such to worship him.†(Joh 4:23) It isn’t a question of the place of worship, nor other external issues. Far more we have to learn what seems to be coming from eastern sources more than from Christianity:
Look within,
Be still,
Free from fear and attachment,
know the sweet joy of the way.
We have to fight the continual attempt to externalise or materialise the Spiritual and learn to draw together in spiritual unity. That is the challenge of the new age.
Thanks for the flowers, but it doesn’t have anything to with intelligence. I also don’t see myself as anyone caught up in some kind of Rapture. I think that the call to love my neighbour would forbid that. It is a question of learning to understand spiritually – everything else is speculation.
I see a difference between “inner†and “elite†that you obviously don’t. I know that “inner†can be something exclusive, but it doesn’t immediately mean superiority like “elite†does. The inner circle is something internal or less apparent. The inner room is a metaphor for spirituality or relating to the mind. I can accompany esotericism, but have difficulty with elitism since I believe that Spirituality is something common to man, even if it has different forms.
My banter with Tentative about him being a Mystic is precisely about this commonality. We are all sentient and just manage to deal with it differently. Either we drown it out in some way, or we use the tradition we have to interpret it, or we develop new ways of interpreting it. Either way it is something inherent that helps us find salvation and essentially health, or we find signs of psychosomatic irregularities and lack of perspectives.
You wake him up! Knowledge is the structure into which spirituality finds a means of communicating. The Spirit has no language made up of words, but uses the language available to transmit what it has understood. You can’t polarise the issue in this way. Of course we need some knowledge, but agreed, it isn’t the amount of knowledge that is important. It is the wisdom of how to use knowledge that we need and of course, to do that, perception.
It reminds me of the joke that Anthony de Mello used to tell:
Once there was a mother who banged on the door of her sons room every morning shouting, “Bernard, wake up! You have to get up and go to school!â€
Bernard replied, “I don’t want to go to school, and I’ll tell you three reasons why! Firstly, it’s boring. Secondly, the teachers are continually complaining at me. Thirdly, the children don’t like me!â€
His mother replied, “Bernhard, I‘ll give you three reasons why you have to go to school. Firstly, we all have responsibilities. Secondly, you are the Director of the school and people are waiting for you. Thirdly, you’ll loose your job if you go on like this!â€
Anthony de Mello said, we all want to remain children and don’t want to grow up – despite what people may tell you. Many adults find some kind of compromise by which they only have to be “responsible†for eight hours a day, the rest of the time they go back to being children. That is why they fail to become spiritually aware or drown it out.
You’ve helped me to better understand why the natural appreciation for hierarchy as in cosmology is seen as so repulsive. It has become associated with the egotistic validation of power. Actually it is the opposite as Simone Weil expresses above. The rejection of this power is what attracted her to the essence of Christianity.
This is a difficult and sensitive question. It shows the value of the Buddhist sangha where a certain attitude is considered necessary in order to discuss these things. It is extremely difficult on an open site such as ILP. Egotism will not allow it.
But what is the Sangha’s attitude toward the teacher or elders? Is superiority the right word? Yet their being, their understanding, is greater though initiating from the same basic level of sentience. So IMO there is both commonality and qualitative difference of objective understaning. The problem seems to occur when these lawful differences are adopted and interpreted by our egotism.
Not so easy. First there must be the desire or need to awaken and second the help of an awakened source. What good is a sleeping expert trying to awaken another? It just creates the illusion of understanding and sounder sleep.
In the case of the true young and budding “black sheep” I and I imagine Simone Weil would give the child his due in his suspicion of mainstream education.
The kid may be feeling a profound truth.
Back to"power"again. The kid may be sensing the duty of the teacher to perpetuate societies idolatry and the evils it supports.
Black sheep are never popular when young nor are “ugly ducklings.” They don’t fit in. Again, the kid may have a point.
The question of what responsibility and growing up really means may be more profound then we give it credit for.
Perfectly normal person was never born. Again, Sin is Judeo-Christian
concept, which is Illusion, derived from belief of Man serving God.
Serial Killer is not Sinner, but Mentaly Ill, by blood, not CHOICE.
It was locked in his DNA, since He was born. Good baby, obedient child,
grew up, and then one day got “Idea” that killing people is not wrong
thing to do.
Michael Schumacher did not know as a boy, that He is going to become
the Best Formula 1 driver ever born.
I was born and grew up in Novi Sad, Yugoslavia, used to speak fluent
German, and know about Deutschland more than many people on this forum. Just like for many Germans, Donau, Danube or Dunav as we call it
is my blood, that is who I am, as Flesh. I’ve visited Schwarzwald, where
it starts, and been all over Germany so many times.
I love Germans, together with Japanese, most disciplined nation on planet.
I do not see one single reason for German nation to make Excuse for
what have happend in 20th century.
Adolf Hitler was created by British bankers and Astrologist, brilliant mind
with appearance of wrong Ideas. It was just beginning of world domination by British Empire. England, the most brilliant , most intelligent
People.
My favorite are Dutch, loveliest nation on planet
Jews are on the same level as Adolf Hitler, when it comes to mentality,
with identical aspiration and beliefs.
[/quote]
Disciples did not know who was Jesus, they lived with Him. Despite
Prophecies by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, predicting exact day when
boy from blodline of David will be born, Jews could not accept truth,
that Jesus is Messiah, because they took Prophetic metaphores literaly.
Feeling the truth is not matter of Inteligence, it is genealogy,
Human lineage, or pedigree if you will.
You can not understand truth, if you have Emotions, other than Love.
That is why, I am not sure do you understand what Dimension was Jesus.
Because you’ve said Jesus wasn’t predicting the future in Luke 21:6
If Anyone says " The time will come when blah, blah, blah " it is what is
called predicting the future, something that we can not be certain about.
I am not a Prophet if I say " Sun is going to shine tomorrow "
Jesus was God in flesh 2000 years ago, and today He is God in flesh, and
nobody will ever know His name, because He came silent as thief in the
night.
There is no Prophecy to proove this truth, but Jesus himself.
You see Bob, for God one day is our Millenium, He died on Cross, and was Ressurected after two days, came back on third day.
Third Millenium, and He is Here in Flesh, again, and this time forever.
Rapture is Christian concept based on Science fiction belief, what really
means is, that Chosen people will, when the time comes start feeling
the Truth, which produces feeling of Heaven on Mental level, not
Physical. If you know the Truth, If that Gift was given to you by God,
you will be spiritualy ascented above others.
Your love towards your neighbour, does not have absolutely nothing to do
with His Destiny. If you were chosen, and not Him, there is nothing you can do, but watch Him die.
Just like me telling you the truth, does not have absolutely nothing to do
with your Future. It was your destiny to read this, and I am giving you all the Love I got, but You will live what He gave you, long time ago.
I am not Religious freak, and do not have religion.
Have started my own ( 100% ) Non-profit Corporation, named
" LoveScience of Destiny corp. " with mission to gather Men and woman
who See what I see, and Feel what I feel. That’s all.
“Black sheep” has a different connotation for me than the usual. I strive for individuality. The sheep is a creature that represents loss of individuality and just being led around and used. The budding black sheep in a herd of sheep starts to think: Hmmm…what’s wrong with this picture? This is the beginning of awakening which is an important word on my path.
Simone Weil was a true black sheep. I’ve got patches of black wool but a ways to go yet.
Quote:
“To get power over is to defile. To possess is to defile.†Simone Weil
I don’t like this translation. What does it mean “to get something over� Does it mean “to enforce something� Simon Weil lived through the age that was obsessed with theoretical Socialism and Communism, whilst managing to disassociate from the actual existing forms of Marxism und Leninism. Since it was reactionary towards Capitalism, it had a high standard to fulfil – which it failed. By all esteem I can bestow on Simone Weil, this is one conclusion that she didn’t have to suffer.
I think that it is this understanding that took me from socialist ideals to spirituality, and spending a long time in Christianity. You see, the greatest problem with all forms of socialism was its disfigurement. It became severe and unyielding, loosing the sympathy for the oppressed that had been the main motivator and taking on a character that could hardly be distinguished from Fascism. This is something that is well described in Orwell’s “Animal Farmâ€.
That is why I don’t see the answer to the challenge of the new age in political reform. We have gone through a century of disillusionment, seeing how ideals are betrayed when power is made desirable. Incidentally, this is a lesson that the Old Testament tries to bring over when the Kings of Israel are said to trust the power of political alliances more than their God. Rather than to trust structures that want rigid concreted foundations and monuments, we need organisms that can be flexible and supple, bearing the challenge of the day, catching the weight of change. (Luke 21:5)
But of course, her idea was that Christianity is a religion of slaves. People who need to be strengthened in the way I have described above. She rejected the disfigurement of the Papal Church in its desire for power, but embraced the idea of pastoral service it its agility and dexterity. The structures of the church must have sinews and bones, rather than stones and mortar. But this is what has been disappointed over the last century. No wonder then that hierarchy has become associated with the egotistic validation of power – that is the way people have experienced hierarchy, however idealistic the leaders were at the beginning.
That is surely something we both know at first hand and you would be wrong to accuse others without accepting that we are all caught up in the same structures. I understand that a cross-cultural, inter-religious organisation needs a basis upon which it can discuss issues. But you have to create structures that enable you to do that. Just like you need a pot to boil water, you need a structure to heat up issues. So, effectively, you could start a heavily moderated Forum to argue the issues you are talking about.
This is what the Church has to relearn. It is loosing its structural integrity and consequently can’t hold water. In this case, it was the rigidity of the structures that caused crannies and fissures to grow under the pressure of a changing world. If these structures had remained organic, there would have been fewer repairs necessary and the structural integrity would have remained. We need an organic structure – perhaps the Sangha is a good model.
You have first to understand that authority is something that has to be recognised. Once it is common knowledge, then you may be able to expect it – but only perhaps. Real Authority is something that I have always experienced, but not something that had to be enforced on me. The dabblers and amateurs have sometimes made my life difficult, but that is a different issue. They are the ones who become elitist, not the real authorities.
Nick, are you trying to be polite but at the same time to tell me that I am asleep? That is what it sounds like and is what leads to my distrust when you start talking about superiority.
This is more a psychological spiritual observation but political and societal results are natural extensions.
This is, of course, what the great beast strives to do in its process of enculturation by creating these psychological blocks against individuality substituting the group mentality in its place. Mechanized rituals, morals and their resultant suppressions then replace understanding and conscience so as soon as conditions are right for the release of suppression, it happens, usually resulting in unnatural violence.
In my esoteric tradition the highest form of love we can know is conscious love. This love desires the beloved to become itself even at the expense of the lover.
To get power over means to control, inhibit, even unconsciously, the growth in being of another and denying them the ability to become themselves in the esoteric sense. So getting power over another is defined as manipulation for personal gain which in the context of “being” is defilement. This is different than voluntarily surrendering ones will to another of understanding in order to acquire understanding. The goal here isn’t dominance and suppression but the agreed upon value of the freedom itself being offered.
Bob, I agree that the solutions aren’t political. I’m the one organizing discussions IRL on the ideas contained in Jacob Needleman’s “Lost Christianity.”
No politics here. The value of presence both for individuals and society is an ancient but forgotten religious and psychological truth. Yet it requires active attention. I see even on ILP how imagination is favored over attention. But this is without a gradual progression of ideas as presented in the book. Hopefully IRL some understanding can be shared from a broader perspective. It’s worth a shot. If it bombs it bombs but I can at least say I tried.
This would be the presence of the Holy spirit in a Living church. It offers the perspective of wholeness that allows all the pettiness to be seen for what it is. This doesn’t means suppression but actually experiencing its hold on you in contrast to what the Holy Spirit reveals as your potential in the context of re-birth. This is not suppression but experiential understanding of the value of letting it go.
.
Agreed. this is the difference between the experts and the master.
.
No. I’m speaking theoretically. I would consider all of us including myself as asleep with inclinations towards awakening. In this way we are all “one”
I try to remain objective but still fall victim to my hot buttons.
For example, I’ve become increasingly sensitive to the problems of education. There seems to be some natural law that the more important the position is the greater the lunacy that will occupy it. Thema is an example. Here is a situation that the importance of leadership is hopefully never required but when it is, it is vital to have a real individual in charge capable of keeping their head in the face of urgency and chaos while making clear sound speedy decisions. I know it is hard to find but non the less, it is what is what the position requires. Yet, it seems that the person in charge was just the opposite and pure politician.
It is tendency in all of us best gotten over but it isn’t so easy. We all have these tendencies but the best we can do is admit them and not try to defend them. It is part of the growth I admit to needing.
OK so mainstream education is damaging to the human psych but will it do any good if I turn red? No. So I admit it
(that Jesus was God, then)
Jesus Foretells the Future )
