I’m watching “Science of the Bible” on the National Geographic channel and I’ve just had the thought that besides the possibility of divinity, Jesus could very well have been more simply…or perhaps more elaborately, a genius of the tides of society.
In the time of social dominance by the Romans I find that its likely a man or “prophet” would arise to contradict the dominant forces of Roman authority. Jesus is the only person of that time I can think of having a contradictory creed to that of the culture wave.
Could it be that Jesus was a simple genius who uncovered the most significant aspects of life and humanity to create an overbearing religion of kindness and self-sacrifice? Was he a person just like us who happened to stumble upon an idea or hoax to save the world from self-destruction?
I don’t think so. I think Jesus is historical (religious) person, God’s son - like in the Great Book. If he was normal person, how can he heal, how can he feed so much people with a loaf of bread and a fish? Or the other mystical things he had done. If you think this is not possible, than you don’t thing this is Jesus, but someone else. That’s my point of view.
Well, assuming that Jesus was in fact, a man of considerable intellect, then imagine the following scenario:
Despite his Political intellect, Jesus knows that he must prove he is in fact, different from everyone else and worthy of a divine leadership role. So to do this he conjures up a couple of hoaxes, in order to trick a small crowd (already buying into the illusion that is ‘Jesus’) into seeing what it wants to see. Jesus could have been smart enough to place some glass just under the surface of the water and pull off some bullshit TLC ‘Waterfalls’ type of illusion. So long as a small group sees something and goes on to talk about it, Jesus gains street credit. I mean we’re talking about a time when news was even more subjective than it is now (that is a scary thought), Jesus knew how to milk the system to get people to ‘believe’.
Now, a counter argument would of course have to include the fact that if Jesus was just a really smart guy who wanted power… would he really die just to preserve some built up illusion?
I wonder if once he bought into his own hype, he was smart enough to realize that in dying, his message would be more powerful. It was a gamble, he knew if if it could survive for long enough, it would most likely continue to do so for quite a while… but if it didn’t make it out of that time immediately* surrounding his death, then he died for no reason.
*I have no idea how long this would be
This is all speculative of course, but I definately think that if Jesus was not in fact a messenger from the almighty, then he was smart, but I think also a druggie.
Yes, constructed lake with glass below it, virtual waterfalls, illusion, the biggest bread in the world… see my eye. You’re right for the news, but it was 2000 years ago…? In 20th century we do have neither such technology everywhere, nor such smart people. I don’t believe it COULD be possible.
The smartest idiot, right? The border between mad and genius is too thin, or at least it seems so.
I don’t think so. What’s the point to realize something after you’re dead? I don’t get it. He dedicated his life to God, the religion, people, relationships. It’s more possible that he’s strange or confused person who believed, that God was talking to him, but after all he was Jesus and he was trying to make the world a better place to live.
That depends on your religion, I think so.
After all, noone knows if the story in the BIble is exaggerated - maybe, it’s God’s book, there are lots of exaggerated things 'cause it was time when people believed that God is everything, people are pawns, but that could be sign of God… who knows?
No offence, just that’s how I see the story with Jesus and his teaching.
Keep in mind that all those things are how WE perceive them to have taken place, the ‘biggest bread in the world’ could have simply been a party trick, that only a few, yet loyal people saw. We see them as difficult now, because like all stories by people who want to impress their listeners… they are exaggerated. The bible has been retranslated through how many dead languages again?
I meant that he would have thought about it before he made the decision to defy Pontius, thus sealing his fate. I’m saying that if he was a fanatic, but a smart one… he would have figured out how to ultimately affect the most people (throughout history).
Old Gobbo, you make Jesus sound like the first sociology or group-psychologist! And, indeed, there is some validity in thinking he was…He actions could have been the master plan of a man who knew who to “affect people” and of course his death was a great piece of “tragic theatrics” (comprabale to some famous CHARACTER in a soap opera dying today).
I like these huge speculations - mainly because so many evangelists I know are as a rigid as a poll when it comes to discussing anything about the bible or their faith in any wayward way…
One thing that people always consider - is why the Bible lacks any humour!! Ominous for sure - it would suggest GOD can’t laugh! Or perhaps GOD has a more sophisticated sense of humour - i.e. IRONY…
"In the time of social dominance by the Romans I find that its likely a man or “prophet” would arise to contradict the dominant forces of Roman authority. Jesus is the only person of that time I can think of having a contradictory creed to that of the culture wave. "
Actually, there was a lot, and the most famous at that time was probably Bar Kohba. But for a reason, the only important memory we have of that time is that of a man who spoke for about 3 years and died as a slave without ever pushing people towards revolution, and even praising the faith of a roman ! Weird, eh ?
Jay Halley wrote a book called the Power Tactics of Jesus Christ that was a pretty good read. It basically talked about him in terms of being a person that knew how to control crowds and manipulate people.
Personally, I think that Jesus was either a fictional character created by subversive Jews or the result of the human “program†so to speak.
The first idea is that a bunch of Greek Jews invented the idea of Jesus for I suppose the purpose of inventing a cult. If I recall correctly, most of the writings about Jesus were done about 500 years after his supposed death, and they were in Greek. So, if I decided to write a story about Voltaire I could take lots of liberties and make him look really great. It would be hard to prove that what I say is not true.
The human program is a little more complex in explanation. Firstly, I don’t believe in free will. I think that humans are programmed via their environment, interactions, language, appearance, and other details to act a certain way. Some people are like Icons and will get railroaded into stereotypical roles. A beautiful girl with a great figure, on average, is going to end up a certain way. A handsome athletic guy is going to get certain input that influences his development. That’s just to keep it simple.
I imagine that certain times create a certain amount and type of stimuli and or need that “floats†around in human consciousness. Some people like Jesus or Buddha are like a lens that focuses all of this information and comes up with an answer for it. Hitler could also fit into this category. He was the result of years of tribal and religious conflict. Jesus, Buddha, and Hitler (although we didn’t like the results that he came up with) all became a channeling point for the problems of their time.
I think that this process works a little like a computer network. Little bits of information get send from all the different people and events (PCs) to a central database (the special man) and then he processes the information and creates a summation of the entire problem.
If there is any truth to this idea, then it makes me wonder if this is part of some human behavior that is like the response that an animal might have to an infrequently given call.
The most important is, among the dead sea scrolls, some fragments of Mark’s gospel and a letter from Paul, which dates them before 68, i.e. approximately 40 years after Jesus death. They were in greek. Actually, everything indicates that this letter goes back to 56.
Work of Carmignac, Tresmontant, Robinson demonstrates that the first version was probably written in hebrew. If you add the time of redaction + translation (much shorter anyway) it seems very likely that these documents have been written at maximum 20 years after JC’s death.
I’ve heard about some of those documents but understand that they are very vague and really ripped up. Do you have any links that prove anything different?
I don’t know references for the original paper about dead sea scroll. But what they have, according to what I’ve red, are two fragments that matches only with new testament. Halas, my references are in france, and me in Canada… I’ll try to see if I can find something about that anyway…
There is much more evidence than for Plato or Aristotle, historically. Plus, you can add mysticism, if you’re really interested in the question. But the fact is that there is no proof for the one who does not want to see them.
Plato and Aristotle left writing behind. There is nothing authored by ‘jesus’
But the main point here is, nobody is self riteously preaching at me and everyone about how we better get on board with plato and aristotle or we are eternaly doomed. People are not trying to impede science and progress in the names of either aristotle nor plato, nor are laws passed or denied on the basis of peoples belief in them.
Wasnt moses just as good as jesus? They both were religious and smart. Although their miracles differed. Why isnt moses gods son, or reincarnation?
There were many other examples of people similiar to jesus in history.
Wasn’t Rome forced to embrace Christianity soon after it spread throughout the empire under the noses of the weakining authorities?
Perhaps it was through a coordinated impactful death that Jesus instigated the relief effort that would save humanity from the self-destructive forces of overpowering governments.
In other words, maybe Jesus saw evil for what it was and simply did everything he could do to make sure other people saw it too.
It seems like everytime a society or culture comes into what they at least portray as world dominance their power is taken away by a “saviour” or mediator from the poor. A natural balancing act so to speak.
If this is what Jesus was then I think he takes the trophy home when compared to others in history.
Another question: Was science created out of Christian nations? Not perhaps basic science, but things like microscopes, planetary science, and Newtonian physics. Maybe Jesus was aware that the “rock” of “His Church” would be set in a corner stable enough to support a more discreet sense of the truths of nature…modern science.
Absolutely not. During the crusades, the ‘heathens’(middle eastern)being slaughtered in jesus name were far ahead of the christian nations in technology. Not to mention the chinese, who knew of astronomy and basic physics and even gunpowder while european nations were still swinging swords at eachother.
On the flipside, the technology ‘christianized’ nations do possess is less becuase dogmatic christian leaders do what they can to supress anything goes against their religion, or threatens it. IE stem cell research.
Any scriptual references to support this point? The only thing that springs to mind for me is the question of paying money to Caesar, but even this isn’t a great example.
No, to me either he existed and was divine according to the bible, or he didn’t exist and a very clever bunch of people got together to have a bit of fun. And, if we are honest with ourselves, the former is much more likely than the latter.