Jesus First Mistake

Hello All

Assuming the goal to be world peace, did Jesus make a mistake by not forming a partnership with the Devil?

The Devil offered to let Jesus take over his domain and with Jesus’ abilities he could have paved the way to world peace with the Devil’s full cooperation and only asking in return for recognition by being bowed down to due to the devil’s sacrifice and of his domain. The Devil did not demand that Jesus abuse humanity but simply offered to relinquish his control letting Jesus influence at will.

Is that really too much for the Devil to ask or for Jesus to give for the creation of world peace? Just think of it; the great kingdoms of the earth would belong to Jesus with no opposition from the Devil and Jesus could mold them into glorious expressions of world peace with the help of a well placed miracle or two.

I don’t know if it is racist, sexist or what but Jesus appears guilty of something ending in “ist.” Why deny the Devil a little self esteem when all he desires is to be bowed down to, acknowledged for the sacrifice of his domain? But yet Jesus refuses and is willing to sacrifice the world peace he could have created by this denial of the Devil’s gift of his influence.

Was this Jesus’ first mistake?

nope:

Hello F(r)iends,

Hi Darth_A, I think you are on to something… Jesus could have led his armies into battle himself crushing all his foes into submission and thus creating peace. And of course, god would not be upset with Jesus because he let Lucifer have the world right? Oh wait, Jesus was god in the flesh so he can’t get mad at himself…

Can the devil be trusted? Does the devil really have the power to give the earth over to anyone? Perhaps the first mistake was that god let Lucifer have influence upon mankind; therefore, since Jesus was god…

-Thirst

To be honest, I will preface what I’m going to say here by noting that I do not believe in the devil, the supernatural, or in personified deities in that sense. But I’d like to posit an answer within the bounds of the (what I believe to be) fictional universe the question is asked in. I’m answering this from the point of view of the common “American conservative suburbanite” understanding of Christianity, as it’s been explained to me…

Remember that the ultimate alleged goal of God is to use the universe as his giant sifter to parse out who chooses him freely from who does not. This way, in the end, he’ll have a bunch of friends and loved ones around him, who chose on their own volition to love him. This would solve his dilemma of loneliness which he had for some reason endured for an infinity until deciding to create the universe and man.

With God’s power, he should easily be capable of not only destroying Satan, but of destroying the fact that Satan ever existed in the first place. Or, barring that, he could simply place a barrier between Earth and Hell such that no interaction could occur between the two (including Satan).

But, given God’s overall alleged goal of using the universe as a friend-filter, keeping Satan around would be a useful thing to have. He could then temp away all the undesirables who would be likely to betray God. Then, once it’s all done, God can neatly tie the loop on the top of the trash bag that is Hell, and dispose of the whole thing, living happily ever after.

This sort of activity on the part of God doesn’t seem to match up to anything I’ve ever thought of as even vaguely decent or ethical, but it seems to be the prevailing model of the universe most fundamentalist (who believe in Hell and Christ-salvation) Christians believe.

Don’t forget that this idea was made up in the mid-east. It is a reflection of their culture.

Scyth

I would agree. But now we’ve jumped into a bigger pile of you know what. How are we to understand this? It seems that there is a form of struggle between earthly and spiritual concerns regardless of our tendency to see them as the same. The sword signifies for me the separation of these influences over us. As in your OBE, man’s earthly existence is unawakened as suggested in Buddhism for example and as such, continues on the wheel of samsara.

I don’t get an impression of violence but rather an acknowledgement of the importance for this division in ourselves as well as the effect of society on us as a whole. Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s

Now this of course cannot mean to kill at will. The good Samaritan is highly praised not to mention “Thou shalt no kill.”

While secular ethics strive for peace on earth through conditioning, allowing oneself to be open to the attraction of higher life opens one to a realistic appraisal of life itself through raw experience.

Jesus’ temptation and his rejection of the Devil implies that man’s spiritual development or conscious evolution cannot result from conditioning but through experience. So Jesus taught how to become open to the impartial experience of the impressions of life itself rather than passively accept secular conditioning which, as a reflection of reactive human “being”, must continually change in conformity with changing external conditions.

It seems at this point we have to reverse our normal tendency to take life seriously with our spirituality in the background and replace it with the freedom not to be so caught up with the superficial concerns of life and take the spiritual significance of our life in relation to what lies above it seriously instead. How seriously is of course up to us. If the sword can help provide this distinction, long live the sword.

It appears to some that it is elitist to think this way; to believe this separation is essential and not just a product of insufficient speeches. I prefer to see it as a calling with non-guaranteed benefits that meets with at least secular apprehension if not complete condemnation. Hmmm…sounds something like my first date.

I had a good salad for lunch thank you. Lots of fiber. :slight_smile:

I don’t think in this case that it does, let’s look at a different translation in context. (I don’t think it has to do with “actual” killing though either. though I’m sure such actions have been justified through misinterpretation.)

In this light it very much is like the buddhist ideal you mention, but it’s more about your connection to god, and less about your connection to your self. Buddhist philosophy is about connecting with yourself and god could matter in the least. This is about disconnecting with everything including yourself, and doing god’s will.

I think if “christ” did exist the devil rejection “story”, is just that, it’s a mythos written after his life. Every “good god” needs an adversary. It’s like thirst said:

The idea that the devil is in conflict with god/jesus is an early catholic construct. Remember in the OT and from the judaistic (pre-christian) standpoint, the devil WORKS for god. (read Job)

Unfortunately it goes beyond that, it means giving up your relationships, and giving up your life. I don’t agree with this at all, I think our relationships are VERY important, and we should work to strengthen them not weaken them.

I think Paul realized that in one of his epistles on marriage, he says something to the effect of “you should get married, as you don’t have the same strength I do to abstain (from relationships/sexuality).”

What kind of “god” asks you to abstain from sexuality? Had christians actually done that it would’ve been a very short lived religion. But, lucky for us (sarcasm?) they couldn’t follow christ’s teachings on sexuality and christianity spread.

good deal.

Hi thirst

Darth_A swishes his cape and stares directly at Thirst. The Devil’s continual success is due in large part to politics. When we learn not to put blind trust in politics, then perhaps we can tackle the Devil.

HI DT

Unfortunately IMO many think as you describe. It is another reason that the secular appeal is so strong

Hi Ad

As I’ve come to accept it, a culture is the midground between conscious influences that initiated from conscious sources or higher levels of existence, and influences that are normal for the earth itself and void of consciousness. So from this perspective the truths behind cultural interpretations and the transition of culture itself from its birth, life, and death, exist simultaneously with the flow of culture in time.

What kind of answer was that?

All of the world religions are stories that came from the people living in a certain time period. They made up a story that refected what they valued and that is proven by the fact that the story was “bought” by everyone. Then, as in the case of Christianity and Islam, the story at least for a time (Christianity) became the reality for many.

So, the people that invent and later those that maintain a story can tell you all about that story.

Adlerian

The idea of conscious evolution makes sense to me. If true it stands to reason that higher consciousness does exist. If it does, it is reasonable that it would help in conscious evolution or what the ancient traditions express in one way or another as “awakening.”

An age or aeon in the Bible for example begins when a conscious source enters into the world. Its effect in time is the age and the end of the age is reached when its potency is no more.

Authentic myths, as I understand it, are actually a form of art that contains within them truths that can open one to consciousness unable to be communicated by associative reason in which consciousness is unnecessary. They are always available for those who can be open to them and not a slave to their imagination. They are initiated by those having been close to the conscious source in spirit and in this way, their effects are introduced into culture.

I can understand why you believe that myths are by definition as you’ve described. I am suggesting an alternative which vivifies the theme of this thread which is that there is not only reactive societal life but also conscious life the help for which I believe Jesus brought and why his resistance to temptation was not a mistake.

Had Jesus worshipped the Devil, the Devil would’ve been greater than Jesus. Then Jesus yielded to temptation, and lost His authority over humans altogether. The Devil was given the power to rule the world until His second coming, where Jesus will claim His people and banish Satan and the non-believers to the depths of Hell.

The thing is that Jesus was sent to the Earth to provide salvation, and that only He could do such a thing, and only He was worthy enough. Had he gained the power of the world, salvation would not be achieved and Satan would be above God, for God failed.

In fact, Jesus would lose His power over everything, by gaining smaller power. I don’t think it was ever God’s idea to create a peaceful world, by granting human beings free will, even the will to stray away from goodness and all. In fact, Jesus urged His disciples to carry the cross that He carried. Meaning the journey will be harsh. His goal was more to the Kingdom of Heaven, moreso than the Kingdom of Earth.

I don’t think it was a mistake. God gave the Devil a chance to rule the Earth, it was a priviledge given by God. It’s funny that at any given time, the Devil offers the power to God back with a certain condition. For God gave Him the power, God too can take it back. But there’s a more beautiful plan for letting the Devil rule over the Earth, in God’s own sovereignty.

I think my answer is very vague, but I hope this gives a little insight to it.

I think Jesus did the right thing. Because if He did accept that, he could never enjoy it. Because if He had all that he knew that he would have to protect himself from everyone who didn’t have it all. To do so would mean “imprisoning” Himself under the guise of “protection”. I would have told Satan to screw off too. To me, it is common sense.
As I have said before " if everyone shared everything, everyone would truly have everything their hearts could want". can anyone prove this to be untrue? It would even benefit the rich, they would have more than they already do, and be able to enjoy it without fear of someone trying to take it from them. The problem is…They are not willing to accept the fact they are equals to the poor, NOT their gods. They must be superior.
We are not here to be gods over one another! That is what they cannot give up. Until they do, they are going to continue suffering the consequences of their actions. They will keep bashing their heads into walls, only difference is now they will know WHY their heads are hurting.

Hi Kvn

Thanks for the input. Though we do see it somewhat differently, I basically agree with what you said here:

There is an apparent division between heaven and earth. Yet in the Lord’s Prayer it says “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” So even though they are different, there seems to be a connection possible that doesn’t exist now but is a desired good.

IMO a great deal of harm has resulted from people mistakenly believing they know what this “will” means and strive to ignore this separation through secularization thinking they are creating heaven on earth and doing God’s will. This conception of God’s will is just egotism IMO and as such must change as do all natural cycles such as the tides on earth.

Hi David

I see you are an idealist. Respectfully, I cannot agree that it would ever be possible or even desired to share everything.

Take for example the question of sex. In order to take competition out sex for men all men will have to have equal access to all women. How as men do we share the women so that we all get an equal sample of different types so that no man feels denied?

Hopefully you can see that this would never work and only lead to women trying to castrate men for even thinking such a thing. :slight_smile:

Life on earth for collective mankind is a reflection of the collective level of “being” of man at which I believe the idealism you suggest is an impossibility. People strive for prestige and not for equality that denies prestige. Jesus’ mission was to raise the being of individuals open to the message for both their personal good in connection with the Kingdom, and the spiritual good in relation to man on earth. It would be useless for Jesus to strive for an impossible equality in secular life knowing full well it is normal for man’s “being”.

Hi Kvn

Thanks for the input. Though we do see it somewhat differently, I basically agree with what you said here:

There is an apparent division between heaven and earth. Yet in the Lord’s Prayer it says “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” So even though they are different, there seems to be a connection possible that doesn’t exist now but is a desired good.

IMO a great deal of harm has resulted from people mistakenly believing they know what this “will” means and strive to ignore this separation through secularization thinking they are creating heaven on earth and doing God’s will. This conception of God’s will is just egotism IMO and as such must change as do all natural cycles such as the tides on earth.

Hi David

I see you are an idealist. Respectfully, I cannot agree that it would ever be possible or even desired to share everything.

Take for example the question of sex. In order to take competition out sex for men all men will have to have equal access to all women. How as men do we share the women so that we all get an equal sample of different types so that no man feels denied?

Hopefully you can see that this would never work and only lead to women trying to castrate men for even thinking such a thing. :slight_smile:

Life on earth for collective mankind is a reflection of the collective level of “being” of man at which I believe the idealism you suggest is an impossibility. People strive for prestige and not for equality that denies prestige. Jesus’ mission was to raise the being of individuals open to the message for both their personal good in connection with the Kingdom, and the spiritual good in relation to man on earth. It would be useless for Jesus to strive for an impossible equality in secular life knowing full well it is normal for man’s “being”.

the life of christ is all a lie
letters and numbers show
his name is really 666 so
christians are mislead by
a evil soceity trying to keep
secrets that won’t last long
the god trinity would leave
man left only to be gay because
in the past they believed in the lies
all the info you need is right under
your nose jesus always made mistakes
if someone is blind help them without
“special” effort and tickets to heaven
where 9 out of 10 evryone sins and isn’t
forgiven so hell might as well always be busy
not only that humankind itself dosen’t need
any help with lying to itself already done
false education and a lying religion
you people can be convinced any way you want
but hey i’m not afraid to go to hell but “god”
has to pay his own price sooner or later
like being wiped from our memories ,
there is no such thing as good we all need
imperfection,lies, and payments even
though neither of them are “true” there is
no such thing as truth because all that’s going to happen
is were gona get sen’t back for lsearching for nothing
42 isn’t a answer it’s just a number and if your going
to walk down 42 roads might as well make another you idiots.

seriously whats so great about 42? it dosen’t explain anything
it dosen’t have a reason for being what it is just like us humanity
is only useful for flesh purposes like on the matrix that part is true
no the architect isn’t god a eternal idiot more like it if that suits
your beliefs we are also good for spreading the wordvirus a fake
belief able to manifest ones path in life im trapped in it because i was
convinced easily by liars who i wish were banished off this very planet
because im nothing more than a tool to them.

so i sin
you sin
they sin
we sin
nobody cares
because nobody is really there.

Nick,

As others have indicated, I think the problem with your question from the get-go was the assumption that Jesus (as the New Testament portrays him) was looking to establish “world peace”.

Interestingly enough, it is such a worldly messianism that most of the Jews were undoubtedly looking for - someone to expell the Romans, and further, to establish the earthly supremecy of the Jewish people and the cult of the Temple in Jerusalem, and through this, to usher in an aeon of world peace and plenty.

(…and now, time for a tangent…) :slight_smile:

To be fair, such expectations are hardly unsurprising, given what one finds in the Jewish Bible (Tanakh/Old Testament for Christians).

There is, IMHO, a lot in the Old Testament which is just plain ugly - including a sense of entitlement for Israel, and something of a different standard of justice for Jews vs. “the rest of us” (goyim/gentiles/“the nations”). Keep in mind, much of the so called “lofty, ahead of it’s time” moral content of the Tanakh is directed toward fellow Israelites - a reality which is made clear in later Talmudic commentaries, in which it is obvious that the culture which gave rise to these books had a clear notion of “us vs. them” and “them” did not have the same rights as “us”. Of course this isn’t just a “Jewish thing” - you find it in most tribal cultures, and you still find shades of it today, even here in the west (ex. for some reason, the lives of our countrymen are more precious, etc.)

And it’s that ugly “me-first-ism” which was in large part glorified in popular messianic expectation.

This is why I tend to buy into the notion that Jesus was heavily exposed (perhaps quite directly, given the pagan cities which he lived so close to in Northern Israel - and given his family trade, he would have likely ended up employed and amongst said “heathen”) to classical philosophy and culture, and it had an influence upon him. Many who are not Christians feel some need of an exotic theory to explain what they know by their gut (that Jesus was somehow on a fundamentally different wavelength than most of his fellow Jews, at least in Palestine) - theories like he must have “traveled to India” or the like. In so doing, they manifest a lack of awareness of the profound thinkers and philosophical/mystical tradition which was native to the Empire in which Jesus lived and died.

Jesus was (at least in his thought) a clearly hellenized Jew, much like Philo Judaeus, the great Alexandrian scholar and biblical exegete (who was btw. a contemporary of Jesus.) There were actually many such Jews throughout the Greco-Roman world (particularly in Egypt), especially as one got further away from Palestine.

Such Jews had a vision which kept much of the popular mythology/narrative and ritual associated with Judaism, but gave it a universalist/metaphysical underpinning which came from the Hellenes. Christianity, particularly the popular form which endured, is very much the fruit of that marriage. Part of that marriage involved a heavily allegorized/selective reading of the Tanakh - to the point that the allegorized interpretation was vastly more important than any literal reading. While we unfortunately have nothing that Jesus may have wrote, we do see this in the likes of Philo Judaeus and his biblical exegesis.

Unfortunately, this “hellenic-Judaism” fizzeled and died out with the destruction of the Temple and the final crushing of Jewish uprisings in Palestine in the early second century. Afterward, the Jews became more insular, and less interested in this sort of intellectual synthesis - thus why Philo is a historical figure, but not at all regarded as a Rabbinical authority by modern “Orthodox” Judaism (which is in reality the Judaism of the xenophobic Palestinian Rabbis, further soured by the suffering and defeat they and their fellow Jews were handed by the Romans.)

I think these factors are probably why to this day, there is a huge chasm between Christianity and Judaism - it is more than any set of doctrinal particulars, by a fundamental difference in perspective/ethos. Though many Christians are not conscious of this, they are essentially “hellenizers” - thus when they read things like the “cursing Psalms”, rife with maledictions and all sorts of brutality, they can give them an enobled meaning… hence why monks were able to chant these without blinking. The same goes for a lot of the “Zionist” hopes and eschatological expectations reflected in the Tanakh (though sadly, some “Christians” have degenerated in this regard, and identify themselves as “Zionists”, based on a relatively modern eschatology - these are the religious base of the American neo-con movement.)

Hi Porch Guy

I can visualize you sitting outside on the porch smoking a pipe and thinking of all these things. :slight_smile:

Quite true. It has become fashionable to define Jesus as the Prince of Peace in the context of secular life. I was hoping that by posting the idea in this striking fashion, it might introduce an additional wrinkle indicating Jesus’ mission not being world peace but instead re-birth into a higher quality of “being.”.

I agree with a lot of your “tangent.”

Just as Christianity degenerated into Christendom, I believe that the essence of Judaism degenerated as well. A lot of the Old Testament I consider to be karma with a face on it and this face became a personal God.

Though Christianity is connected to Judaism, I believe its roots are much more ancient and believe as suggested by St.Augustine:

IMO, Christ descended from above into the essence of Jesus gave life to the essence of the religion. Instead of defend Jesus as a hellenized Jew, I see him as being what the hellensitic tradition was searching for. In this sense he was beyond the tradition since his essence included the essence of many traditions. The essence of Christianity became more than philosophy but a living truth capable of aiding man’s conscious evolution. Of course as this essence gradually filtered into society, it lost its esoteric potency and began serving the function of a moral policeman for the sake of secular life. Christianity taken as a whole for me has Christianity at the top followed by gradual degenerations into sects.

Your ideas remind me a bit of what I’ve been reading concerning Simone Weil and her conversion from Judaism to Christianity. She realized the degenerating effect of the literal mind on Judaism and Christianity and its search for"power" so chose to remain a Christian on the outside of Christendom appreciating Christianity as advocating the need to abandon power for the sake of re-birth.

I’ve found esoteric Christianity to be open to all these ideas such as what was brought by Philo Judaeus, Plato, and the rest. For example Philo Judaeus suggests:

“God was without attributes and so high above everything earthly that intermediate beings had to interact between Man and God. These beings he called logos, and they were to be found in the spiritual world of ideas.”

This is cosmological and suggests levels of being between God and man that can be revealed through contemplation. Much New Age philosophy just considers the flattering conception that man as virtually God. Becoming open to the vast difference between levels of existence and inner space is ignored. It is no wonder then that the idea of help from above from within this vast inner space appears so strange.

But I would have to agree that both Christianity and Judaism have suffered because of this natural tendency to conceptualize their depth to support our egotism.

What can I tell ya Porch guy, we’re in a mess. :slight_smile:

This topic confuses me. If you folks believe that Jesus was real, and was really what he is popularly reported to be, then how could he have made a mistake? Also, how can you even attempt to second guess him?

What I am reading is the work of people that don’t believe but enjoy saying that they do. How am I wrong here?

adler…

could be also people believe jesus was a man, not a god.

I can buy that, but then what about the devil part?