“If someone believes their personal faith drives them to shout it from the mountaintops, ‘who are we to tell them they’re wrong’”
That type of behavior can create an echo or worse, an avalanche. I might hear all of this and you know, I’m trying to get some reading done.
Nothing wrong at all to shout whatever you want. Why do I have to put myself into an category with other people? For what? Comfort? I don’t condemn anyone, even a Satanist or atheist. There is power in your grace and strength in your silence.
Now that is wit. 
Hi Future Man
You ask:
I guess the basis of my belief is that the universe serves a purpose as a perpetual motion machine continually transforming substances. The universe consists of two great movements or directions like rivers of the three forces of the Trinity. The first direction is responsible for creation itself and is called involution. It is the division of unity into density and plurality. It is the movement away from the center.
Created things are formed by the reblending of these three forces but at slower rates of vibrations. Grouped together within a scope of these vibratory levels, created things exist together at a level of existence called a cosmos. God is a cosmos and within God their are six other cosmolological levels of existence one existing within the other like circles within circles and each comprised of created things.
God is pure consciousness. The second cosmos beginning within god is less conscious and its operations more mechanical. The third cosmos existing within the second would be less conscious and its operations more mechanical than the second. This division continues by involution down to the seventh cosmos or the microcosmos.
Evolution is the movement of forces manifesting in created things reblending into materiality forming a corresponding higher quality or vibratory rate so that it manifests as a created thing within a higher cosmos. It is the movement of diversity towards unity and the coarse to the fine Up to a certain point this process can occur mechanically and evolution occurs within a cosmos. Evolution that allows for a quality of life or created thing beginning at one cosmos to come to exist at the next higher which would be less mechanical and more conscious requires developing consciousness. This is the situation I believe Man to be in. We have the potential for conscious evolution that the higher mammals do not have. Where man existing on the earth in the fallen state exists as part of organic life the purpose of which is to serve the earth, I believe that Man also has the potential for a higher purpose normal for a higher cosmos. This purpose is to connect two levels of existence sometimes referred to as heaven and earth by means of the creation of a soul or re-birth in Christian terms.
This level of existence is not something we can know other than theoretically since we have no point of reference to experience. We can admit that we don’t know so the effort is centered on how to become open to the conscious impartial experience of life’s impressions without continually being taken by our normal habitual and mechanical reactions to them so as to gradually acquire a greater sustained consciousness.
What we see in the world of our earth are the lawful results of evolution and involution within the confines of the earth itself. What we call a miracle is the lawful results of one cosmos for some reason manifesting in another. So if you want to say that God can be experienced through the interactions of universal laws sustaining divine plan, I would agree to a point but this mechanical result is not a conscious intent. However, the earth is serving its purpose and though subjectively we may dislike its effects on us, it is reflecting objective justice in serving its necessary purpose which is the sustained transformation of substances in accordance with divine plan maintaining the universe itself of which the earth is just a part. Our mistake is that we overestimate our importance on earth. Our universal importance is a quality of re-birth which exists in us as a seed or potential. It leads to a change of “being”. This change of being is the concern of all the great teachings at their source and what separates them from normal secular psychology or religion which concerns itself only with adaptation within a level of being.
“im a soul reaver, god is infinite, i never die 
.”
quotes like that make me happy
god is gay in homosexuality we are all stupid.
most people are really good giving deep throat to their partners.
you don’t get back what you give.
hell is forever;heaven is only a wish.
aw fuk.
I don’t really have “faith.” To me, faith is belief in consitency with past experiences which are used as evidence. I think that in most cases faith doesn’t make sense, and is best used to predict the actions of an old friend. I believe in me. I sometimes see everyone else as a sort of extension of me; of who I might have been had my environment been different. Like we’re all aspects of one huge personality, but we can only see ourselves. Other times I just hate everyone around me. Other times I hate myself.
I have no consistency.
I have no faith.
nick a… wow… big words… so many…
honestly, my first impression is that you made it all up in order to make fun of any rational explanation of existence, religion and faith. you found a silly way to say a bunch of zany things that appear to cohere yet dont actually explain anything at all or lead to any sort of beliefs. but it would be rude of me to assume thats what you really meant since i probably just didnt fully understand.
well i could have told you that the universe started as a dot and turned into many little particles. how does that serve a purpose; what does it have to do with any possible purpose?
so if you are talking about elementary particles in string theory, we are imagining that at the big bang, you have very powerfully vibrating strings who slowly decrease their energy and turn into the normal strings we see today.
you are probably not talking about that, but some kind of abstract imagination of- wait! i may have thought the same thoughts:
a bacteria lives on our skin and knows nothing of what our body does. we live on a planet and we arrogantly assume that the planets and stars are mindless purposeless objects doing nothing as we go about our business.
a bacteria lives for a few days while we live for years. in his lifetime, if he saw what happened in our bodies, he would see a little bit of food digest, some oxygen move around and he would learn that this body he lives on is boring and does nothing. while he has taken over and destroyed hundreds of cells, this huge body he lives on has simply ingested a few chemicals. thats all he will ever see or understand.
the only thing we ever see or understand is that planets go in a circle around stars, and stars smash atoms together. perhaps the stars smash atoms in order to metabolize a gigantic organism and the planets orbit the stars in order to circulate the seemingly invisible electromagnetic product of this metabolism.
and so there you have your varying degrees of vibratory levels! we are number three, bacteria is number four, the atoms and electrons in the bacteria are number five and the quarks and leptons inside those atoms are number six!! stars and planets are number two and god the creator is number one. what could possibly make you believe this? what ideas come to light upon considering this idea?
so at the point of creation, the separate vibratory levels were set, static? stationary? like god or whoever zapped into being level number one, two five and 6? we know that he did as of the big bang. it would actually make more sense to say that he made level 6, the leptons and quarks first. then they made atoms, slightly more conscious with more decisions to be made (which atom should i make… hm lets put 8 electrons in orbit! i like that! krypton GO!) and then bacteria was even more evolved etc.
but the evolution from quarks to humans is a very smoothly sliding scale, surely not divided exactly into only 6 levels of vibration. perhaps im taking my somewhat tongue in cheek interpretation a little too far.
so the un-evolved man’s initial purpose (or the monkeys purpose, or the mouse’s or whoever is above bacteria) was to serve the earth? and now that we have become real smart we can interact with and connect with the next higher level of vibration?
what do you call a miracle? jesus turning a beat wedding reception into a miraclous bash with water into wine or the miracle of babies coming out of utureses? or do you mean tripping balls when you sit still listening to a sitar for 10 hours straight thinking about your own belly button?
but what is to be accomplished by transforming substances. and more importantly, what about your experience on earth has led you to believe that your purpose is to somehow transform something into an apparently ambiguous higher vibratory level? can a higher vibratory level be obtained by learning more about the universe and its objects [who are the next level?] and scientifically, legitimately helping them to accomplish whatever their, as of yet undiscovered, goals may be?
or is our goal listening to some prophet who claims he has, or has been claimed to have, the blessing of the higher vibratory level?
rebirth as in going to heaven as a result of our supposedly divine cracker eating or rebirth as in “creating our influence again” in the form of our influence on the higher vibratory level? ie, we are born knowing that we will help our family and neighborhood, but are born again when we use the super planetary ray to help the sun metabolize hydrogen for the solar finger (think hard, that DID make sense).
ok, so you DO want us to listen to those jerks. by treating our neighbor like ourselves (which is the only thing they all have in common), we can do our greater good. as i have said before, we can reharmonize the omnisoul. by treating our neighbor like ourselves, we will be doing our part in the cosmic ballet.
just like our body hopes that electrons will orbit protons in order for us to continue our material existence, the super body that contains us all hopes that each human treats its neighbor like themselves so that it may continue in its super existence.
why should i care about super body? what makes you think super body has communicated with us? i think the very fact that being selfish causes pain and being selfless causes happiness is the one and only reason why we should believe that selfishness is bad and selflessness is good. i find that it suffices to believe that some force, higher vibratory level or god himself has given us this emotional stimulus, and this emotional stimulus should be the only thing that determines our behavior.
and if you look at this huge overarching concept (the emotional response that you receive upon dedication of your excess resources) it is the one and only thing that can possible ever begin to give you a slight peek at what our purpose is. if you ask yourself what your purpose is, you have to truncate that into a slightly smaller question: what do i do with my extra resources? what do i do with my money, free time or simple ability to help somebody?
if you keep it all to yourself, youll feel empty. if you put smiles on other faces youll feel good. i think this is true in all cases. wait! before you tell me im wrong, there is a line to be drawn between extra resources and needed resources. if you donate resources that you need, youll feel like a tool. if you keep resources you dont need, youll feel selfish. i know i would, maybe im crazy.
and that is the one and only window we have to the next higher vibratory level. our emotional response to our decisions regarding our excess resources.
the question that you quoted was actually aimed at believers in organized religion. why does jesus want you to eat his unleavened body bread? why does god want you to kneel down five times a day when you could be working on your excess products? if you took those prayer breaks and dedicated them to creating excess resources and then donated them to the local poor, i truly think that you will FEEL better than you would if you prayed in that time.
what kind of god wants us to do something that doesnt feel good in lieu of something that does feel good. more importantly, how in the crap hell damn does he expect me to BELIEVE that he wants me to do the thing that doesnt feel good in lieu of the thing that does feel good? he wants me to believe rich priests wielding golden chalices who made decisions hundreds of years ago while murdering infidels and inquisiting heretics? come on.
Hi Future Man
I didn’t make it up. I am just presenting my understanding of ideas that have helped me a great deal. I had always felt that there was something unnatural about this apparent accepted split between religion and science. Over the years I discovered that this is really an ancient question and each side has dug itself in to such a degree that this split only appears normal.
The idea of purpose becomes more comprehensible if you consider the universe as a living machine. Its purpose reflected by material transformation is continual experience. While it is true IMO that God as "One"or unity is love, unity itself without experience slowly begins to limit potential as expressed in creation, diversity, and God’s wisdom which is the expression of the relationship between the fractioning of the “one”
But such an idea is to large for our normal conceptions so consider it from the bottom up or from dimensions.
This first stage actually has no dimensions or “zero” dimensions and is called a “point”. It must be seen as a “limit” for the idea to be built on. For example a series of points stretching out into infinity is a line or the first dimension. At each of these points comprising a line you can extend a line out from at right angles into infinity. The resulting figure is a plane or surface and the addition of the second dimension. At right angles to each of these points on the two dimensional surface, lines can be stretched out into infinity creating a cube, three dimensional space, the third dimension.
However, existence is in “time” and occurs within the space of the fourth dimension. Taking all the points on the cube and extending them out into infinity creates a figure within a quality of space beyond our comprehension.
The point though is a “limit” so existence in time is the eternal recurrence of this limit. Time, from this perspective, is defined as the repetition of “now.” A person’s life for example is not just one point but a continuum of points in eternal recurrence within the fifth dimension or eternity.
However, there are an infinite possible eternities and their possible actualizations occur in the sixth dimension which includes all possibilities. God’s potential is then actualized in the sixth dimension that contains the space to include all possibilities and their recurrence. This "space"is not something we can comprehend other than through a dead three dimensional analogy or artistic emotional expression. The universal cycles depicted as the “Breath of Brahma” conjures this type of feeling.
This is reasonable. Have you studied Pythagoras at all in relation to vibration and string theory? His ideas are now beginning to become appreciated by modern science. I’ll include a reference so that you know I’m not making this up.
open-site.org/Science/Physics/Mo … ng_Theory/
I agree. We’ve lost the conception of how small we are in relation to the universe which is why IMO we’ve become blind to the big picture and the potentials for Man within it. From this perspective we are like bacteria limited to three dimensional conceptions. The experience of time is also relative. What may appear as an eternity for us can be an instant for a higher form of life with a far greater life span.
For example: time in Buddhist cosmology is measured in kalpas. Originally, a kalpa was considered to be 4,320,000 years. Buddhist scholars expanded it with a metaphor: rub a one-mile cube of rock once every hundred years with a piece of silk, until the rock is worn away – and a kalpa still hasn’t passed! During a kalpa, the world comes into being, exists, is destroyed, and a period of emptiness ensues. Then it all starts again. This gives an indication of how small we are in relation to time and universal perspective.
We differ here. As I see it, the highest cosmos has the highest vibration and its life force manifests in the finest density of matter. This would be light and the intent for its creation is expressed in Genesis 1 as “Let there be light.” Particles themselves visible to our senses and tools for observation are composed of still finer particles and still finer ones originating within higher cosmological levels. A life form then can include within it the materiality of several cosmological levels depending on its origin. That is why labeling now is misleading.
Actually it is quite reasonable when you read charts on it. Science appreciates vibration but stops where it is no longer measurable. This point as I see it is this great quantum question. But just so you know I’m not making up this idea of vibration. You can read a bit on it here:
altreligion.about.com/library/te … alion9.htm
I believe in the living layered universe far beyond what I’ve described since it makes sense and my own experiments and experiences with self awareness have proven to me that I have the capacity to include both what observes and what is observed within myself. This is the beginning of inner cosmological awareness which seeks to reconcile “As above, so below.”
Human purpose then must include understanding the nature of life and purpose of human life. If this were understood and the human condition were seen for what it is, it would be natural for people to help one another awaken to it and stop the maddness since human life itself would be appreciated within a higher context natural of our potential. We cannot do it so life continues as it is accept for the minority that have begun to smell the coffee indicating the awakening of whatever degree to human potential.
Hi Bessy,
Define my faith?
I have faith in Murphy’s law, in the sun rising on the horizon (even if I can’t see it), in the fact that I will one day breathe my last breath, and that there is a purpose to life and in the love of my wife…
I have faith in the perspectives I gain from reading the Bible, in the calling of believers to be redeemers in this world, in the blessing that comes from doing the will of God…
I have faith in the fact that I make many mistakes that I don’t even notice, and that some of those I notice I will try to ignore…
There are so many things, I could be here all night … 
Peace!
(I’m off to watch Harry Potter…!)
Hi Bob,
Nice honest answer.
faith (fāth)
n.
My original intent was about one’s religious faith, but as you can see, we don’t hit that one 'til #4.
Lately, I have gotten more out of Eastern philosophies for my day-to-day than from the Bible. I have seen so much hypocrisy in so many Christians that I have lost that glimpse of communal spirit that I once knew. I have turned away from organized religion because I see nothing but negativity and strife. Bob, give me one page in the Bible that does it for you. One page above all others that feeds you for your love of God. It will be hard to choose one, but if you had to, which one would it be?
(Okay, I will give you a book. Which book in the Bible takes you home?)
Me? I have faith in love, my friends, my music, my children, that there is a purpose in life… and that I have much to learn and far too many wounds to heal. I trust those who ask questions and am very suspicious of those who seem to know too much. The more you know, the more you realize that you really know nothing at all. You spend a lifetime of experiences, but it would take a thousand lifetimes to get a small fraction of it. And again… I ramble, Bob.
“Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers.” - Voltaire (1694-1778)
Hi Bessy,
You really have me there, I have been in this for so long and so many things have collected in this old grey head of mine. I too am not unaware of eastern philosophies and wisdom, which really helps me analyse my own roots. The story of Elijahs running away to Horeb and being confronted by God has always been powerful with me. Although it is a bit long and probably not yet ready for the printer, have a read of this:
In the days of Jesus, people were hoping that a man with the spirit of Elijah would free them from oppression. They wanted to see the occupying forces in the country thrown out. Israel should return to the old days again. Some people saw John the Baptist as an apparition of Elijah. We can read in the Bible, that some people believed that Jesus called out to Elijah from the cross.
Elijah as a figure of hope, as a custodian of religious life, as a liberator and charismatic leader – Elijah seems to have set emotions off throughout history. There are stories and songs that reveal him to be all of these things in the hopes of religious people throughout the millennia. It seems that believers of all era’s had to have this kind of hero.
But this story, like many in the Old Testament, is quite uncomfortable. This kind of hero can’t be accepted without criticism. We Christians need the dimension of Christ in order to get the valuable assets out of this story. There are things that contradict our ethical view, our estimation of Christ and his Gospel.
Elijah must be one of the most dedicated to the faith in the one God and his claim on Israel. He combated the opposition to the faith and even executed adversaries with his own hands. Surely here we antagonise the peaceful message of Christ? Wasn’t the most violent that Christ got, when he drove the moneylenders from the Temple? And didn’t he call us to love our enemies?
We read that Elijah ran before his adversary, humiliating him. He feels like in heaven, his deeds confirmed by God himself. But suddenly there is a break – and in our chapter, despite the past rapture, he has reached his limit. He’s clapped out. It’s like a hangover. He had his peak and finds himself suddenly in a deep trough. He sees no escape. The adversaries, Ahav and Izebel are too powerful, he is afraid. He feels he’s been left by himself, he’s resigned.
Maybe we in the are no longer possessed by revenge like in the days of Elijah, but we hear enough to be sure that it hasn’t disappeared. The more open we have dealing with the world, the more the Globalisation grips the poorer countries, the less Borders there are, the more we are confronted with the reality of revenge. How often have we heard the call for an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth? And, hand on heart, the thought that someone could take revenge on our country fills us with as much fear as Elijah is feeling in our chapter. Perhaps we’re not running for our lives, but we would try to bring everything in safety.
Back to our story – with all due respect to Elijah’s situation, could it be that it is the fate of the overzealous to reach such a point, where they are so low that they just want to die? Could it be that it is an overwhelming fact, that the higher you climb, the deeper you fall? A point when the physical and mental health falters. You reach low tide. The candle is burnt out. Enough! Perhaps it is just the overzealous that know these moments all too well.
It is possible that such people suddenly realise what has kept their zealousness glowing hot – the thought that they are better than everybody else, ‘better than my Fathers’? The idea, the hope that we could ‘finally’ change things, ‘finally’ bring something sensible about, can take over. It can be like a voice in our ear, driving us on, building up arrogance and conceit – and not the love of God.
But Elijah must accept in the end: ‘for I am not better than my fathers.’ The puffed-up and fraying are brought to the point where they are bust and exhausted and confess: ‘I can’t do it after all!’ We have dreamt that the world was waiting just for us – but it wasn’t so. Even if it was an honourable assignment, even if we wanted to spread the word, pass on the love of God and embrace the whole world… at some time we have to sober up and land on both feet.
Neither the world, nor God allows themselves to be pressed into our schemes. God may even become fleeting and lost to us, eluding our attempts to abduct him. What remains is an overconfidence and an ambition to ‘finally’ do everything better. We believe we are being driven by the Spirit of God – but we are driven along different paths. Paths full of bodies and injured – perhaps even more than we had imagined. And our victories along the way fade against the recognition of the fact: ‘I am not better than my fathers.’
Why is ‘God’s warrior’ so resigned? Why is he scared? If God is for him, can anyone be against him? But it is this assuredness that he has lost. Perhaps because his ambition became so big, but his God became so small?
But… he’s a man of God! He’s a Prophet’ Isn’t he the mouth of God? I think Elijah is asking himself quietly the same thing. Am I? And I believe that it is a blessing in disguise, whether for him or for us, to ask like that. It is beneficial to have so much doubt about us and our calling, so that God can get a word in. Otherwise He must wait and it can only come when we are on the floor – done in and twitching nervously, perhaps even depressive. With some of us, that is the only time he can get his word in!
On the other hand, you can understand people like Elijah. There are situations when ‘reforms’ are just too weak, when hard-talk is needed, harsh criticism to change unbearable circumstances - or when deeds speak louder than words. Weren’t there historical situations when people like Elijah were called to the front, when a miscarriage of justice had to be put right? What would have happened to Europe sixty years ago, if there hadn’t been those willing to do something? Aren’t there occasions when someone has to ‘rough up’?
The Church has stood in the middle of such historical developments, indecisive. The Church has shown itself resistant to reform, not conscious of a need for change but driven by ambition and zealousness. We need to meet the challenge of the future and not long for days since past. Perhaps the search for answers makes us tired. We have tried to provide answers over decades, and have had a certain success. But all of a sudden we notice that the answers are no longer suitable for younger generations. We need answers to the questions of the day and not search for the questions that suit our answers! There are those of yesteryear in the church too.
This can cause a crisis - perhaps at a very unsuitable time in our lives. Perhaps Elijah is in such a crisis. Possibly he cried out to God: “Not now! I can’t use depression! Must it happen now? I need all of my strength to cope with the situation. The new dangers must be averted, the adversaries are collecting themselves. The new age must begin, a next period of life. Convalescence must set in. There are so many reasons not to have a crisis now!â€
The story goes on…
5 He lay down and slept under a juniper tree; and, behold, an angel touched him, and said to him, Arise and eat.
6 He looked, and, behold, there was at his head a cake baked on the coals, and a jar of water. He ate and drink, and laid him down again.
7 The angel of the LORD came again the second time, and touched him, and said, Arise and eat, because the journey is too great for you.
8 He arose, and ate and drink, and went in the strength of that food forty days and forty nights to Chorev the Mount of God.
9 He came there to a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said to him, What are you doing here, Elijah?
At last Elijah finds rest. Sleep a little – relax! Easier said than done! We need a place away from the main track, perhaps a day’s journey away. A change of scene, different air, a quiet chamber, a hideaway, a refuge.
Sleep is a gift that we seldom appreciate. We need sleep – the limbs, the muscles, the brain needs a break. We must regenerate, we need to be bestowed strength in quiet, so that our thoughts can sort themselves. We need a time of reflection, and then to be released from the things that have occupied us for so long. We need a break, and sleep gives us that.
But we also need someone who wakes us every now and then, and says: ‘Arise and eat!’ A messenger, an angel must come. Who knows what form they have? Wives, husbands, children, friends, colleagues. Someone who follows us and says: ‘Arise and eat!’ Refreshment is on the agenda, a present, a hug, a few words, a look that says: ‘I’m here!’
I don’t know what you need, perhaps not a cake baked on coals, and a jar of water, but eating and drinking is important. It can mean the rebinding to the things with elementary importance in life. A re-rooting in the things that give sustenance, that we may have forgotten for a while. Eat, sleep and rest again.
Do you rest enough? Or do you oust rest because it is unbearable? It mustn’t be absolutely quiet, not ‘dead silence’ but it should be rest – however you find it. Supplanting rest can mean that you don’t sleep – not until you’ve sweated too much and can’t stay on your legs. But then you need a lot more sleep than if you find rest regularly.
And hopefully there is the angel, who comes and refreshes us again. But even more – we need a direction and the tip that we haven’t reached our goal. Don’t give up, go on. I need these angels. I need to receive if I am to give. We need to listen to the angels that God sends us, or even become messengers in turn.
How often it is that tiredness pairs with disorientation and bears resignation! May God always send us the messengers that can strengthen us enough to be able to pull ourselves together and set off for the objective. But the fulfilment of our wishes isn’t our objective – it is the encounter with God.
There we find the refuge we have searched for. We are not made to hide in the holes of this world when we are called to be sons and daughters of God. Don’t let this calling be taken away from you. Christ empowers us to be children of God and his brother and sister. He is the refuge we have been looking for, because we won’t get lost there or fall ‘in the pit’ as the psalms oft state - and there are so many pitfalls in this world. If we heed the message of stories like this, we may avoid them.
Elijah is strengthened and shown the way – to Chorev (or Horeb) the Mount of God. He goes in a straight line, purposefully towards the encounter – because he needs it. He needs a word, assuredness, and to regain confidence. Where do we find such an encounter? Where do we find words, assuredness and confidence? Where is our Mount Chorev? Where God encounter us? God comes to Elijah in his sleep – Elijah doesn’t make elaborate preparation. He doesn’t use elaborate words or strike a pose, or open a book. He heads for his encounter and it happens.
Jesus too tells us that we can enter into this encounter in the realm of God in all situations of life – because God is always in the equation. Paul quotes that we are to ‘seek the Lord, if perhaps we may feel after Him and find, —though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us, for in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring.’
And yet we all have a Mount Chorev, whether it is the quiet chamber, a park bench, a wood, a church or chapel. We need to get off the carousel for a while, we need to find our balance again, the centre of our being. God wants to be this centre for us in a world where we are influenced by so many opinions and conditions. He says ‘Come unto me, all ye labouring and burdened ones, and I will give you rest, take up my yoke upon you, and learn from me, because I am meek and humble in heart, and ye shall find rest to your souls, for my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.’
And so Elijah reaches his encounter but to his dismay, he must hear how God asks him: ‘What are you doing here, Elijah?’
10 Elijah said, I have been very jealous for the LORD, the God of Armies; for the children of Yisra’el have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and slain your prophets with the sword: and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
11 He said, Go forth, and stand on the mountain before the LORD. Behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore the mountains, and broke in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
12 and after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
13 It was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entrance of the cave. Behold, there came a voice to him, and said, What are you doing here, Elijah?
Poor Elijah! He has he has strived for the King of Hosts, but he is alone in a hole without any gathering. Alone and in danger. The altars have been thrown down, and the prophets slain and he finds God asking him ‘What are you doing here, Elijah?’ What kind of a question is that? Doesn’t He know? It is as though God has holed himself up long before Elijah arrived. Must Elijah explain?
Do we sometimes forget ourselves when we complain to God? He encourages us to speak it straight out, the Psalms are full of clear attempts to impeach God, but don’t we sometimes go too far? We sometimes “use vain repetitions like the nations,†thinking that in our much speaking we shall be heard – we babble! “I have been very jealous for the LORD,†we say, “and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away†Don’t you know what this world is like? I’m the only survivor and sat here alone in a hole!
Elijah has lost his perspective, he has no overview of the situation. He sees himself alone in the fight against the godless and evil – left alone by the God for whom he was jealous. You can hear accusation in his voice. “I don’t know you anymore! Up until now you were on my side! Where has my assuredness gone?â€
Perhaps it’s true that Elijah doesn’t know his God anymore. And perhaps that is why it had to come to this encounter on Mount Chorev. “Recognise your God!†is the motto of this meeting. Do you know God? Have you heard the story that Jesus told about servants of God who were driven off or slain by the people who called themselves the ‘eyeball’ of God. And isn’t the tragedy at the beginning of Christianity the fact that one of Israel’s best was sacrificed by the leaders of Israel to the Romans to maintain law and order?
The fascinating thing about the Bible is that despite these stories, God remains the one who yearns after his people, wooing them, not finding any pleasure in the death of the godless. He is the one pursuing reconciliation, looking out for the prodigal son, opening his arms to take in the ‘home comers’. That is the ‘good news’ that makes an Elijah remorseful because he has recognised what his true motivation was. But he didn’t die under the Juniper tree, but was brought to this summit.
Recognise your God! Go out and stand before the Lord your God! Would we have the courage to do that? What could happen to us when the Lord passes by? What dangers lurk between the rocks – dangers for our thought constructions, that we have carefully erected. Dangers for our beliefs, with which we have explained away our doubts. Beliefs that we have possibly spread with zeal and passion, perhaps with a hint of accusation against the ‘unbelievers’?
The great and strong wind symbolises a strong spirit that can even tear the mountains, and break the rocks in pieces. The wind can pulverise the hardest boulder. Maybe we could use that kind of a God to ‘finally’ bring movement into a dormant Christianity – Elijah had wished himself that kind of a God too. He should blow throughout the land and sweep away his opponents – but the Lord was not in the wind.
The earthquake symbolises the gigantic creative forces at the beginning of time, but also the force of justice that was active during the deluge. Supposedly cleansing forces that took the ground away from the opponents of God in the story of Noe, sweeping them into the fissures. But God is not in the earthquake.
I don’t know how long it took until Elijah realised that God had in fact passed by. I would have probably stood petrified and waited to it became dark. Thankfully we have this story to put us right. When will we come to accept that the small, the still and the gentle are often the signs of God that we readily overlook? When will we hear the still and gentle message of our God – and may this message guide us. Can we allow that?
It reminds me of a favourite quote: “Not by a force, nor by power, but—by My Spirit, said the Lord of Hosts.†(Zech. 4:6) And I feel that this is the message that is often hidden below the enthusiasm of the zealous. The word Host means armies – that means that the Lord of heavenly Armies doesn’t want to rule by a force, nor by power, but—by His Spirit. The Spirit of mercifulness “Who is forgiving all thine iniquities, Who is healing all thy diseases, Who is redeeming from destruction thy life, Who is crowning thee—kindness and mercies, Who is satisfying with good thy desire, Renew itself as an eagle doth thy youth.†(Ps. 103)
I feel that we Christians need to realise that our live are very often far different to this message. But He goes out so that we may follow.
What are you doing here, Elijah? What are you doing here, Christian? What power do you hope to conjure up here in the hole where you are hiding? A power to satisfy your ambitions? But we can’t mix our ambitions with the ‘Will of God’ – it is far different and comes from without, not from within.
And the Lord was not in the wind, not in the earthquake and not in the fire. And then came a still small whisper. That is consolation for those who recognise the tragedy of Mankind and suffer under the distress of the world, those who do not use force - the merciful, the peacemakers, the poor – because they learn that the underlying principle of this world is not as it seems – not in force, nor in power, but in the merciful spirit of God.
Shalom
Hi Bob,
Did you write your signature? Every couple needs to read this because this, my friend, is the only thing that makes a longterm marriage long term.
I enjoyed your stories, but most especially can relate to the stillness and quiet that you speak of… the man who says the least in a room makes more of an impact than one who rants and raves. This, of course can be translated to the ILP issues lately - the act of turning away from the heated moment and living in a state of grace is the best way to be a missionary to any religion. To see beyond oneself, to me, is what my faith is built on knowing there is more than what we can actually see in the day-to-day. Like musical notes, it is not so much the drone of one or many notes making the music but the space in between the notes. We live our lives trying to find those happy moments only to realize that many of them were appreciated because of the stillness and boredom that came before- waiting and yearning for them to appear. You are clearly a biblical man who has given this a great deal of thought, but I ask you - does your quiet faith work for the Jew or the Buddhist? What if these God fearing good people never find Christ? What if they live the life that Christ wants them to, but don’t articulate it as Christ. Does one have to be a Christian to be Christlike? Or is it closed to the non-believer - this trip to the Kingdom of Heaven forever and ever? Is everyone else doomed? I love the writings of Christ - as I love all of the biblical stories passed down through generations. But it is the exclusiveness that I seriously question. I question it so deeply that it turns me away from anything Christian and I am on my way back to the East where all people seem to be included. Explain this to me.
Hi Bessy,
No I didn’t, but that it appeals to me explains 28 happy years
On the other hand, the empty vessel makes the most noise, whereas the full one has more weight. I think that this is also the biggest problem with Christianity today. There are the loud groups trying to convert everyone and getting peoples backs up, and the quiet ones getting on with their task of loving redemption. It’s just that too many people confuse the two.
I appreciate the picture you’re painting, but I think that what is really missing for many people is a true social commitment, working hard for a goal and then having the satisfaction of reaching it. That is when happiness has quality. It is like the tiredness after a worthwhile task, it is something that gives you a refreshing sleep and a feeling of expectancy when you wake up. Many people haven’t experienced this since childhood.
I think that my faith can work for anyone. I try to get to the spiritual element of faith, and find it all over the place. It doesn’t matter whether you follow Christ or whether you walk the Tao, even the supposed clash of the cultures of Islam and Christianity have enough spirituality in common. You see, it isn’t the outward shell that carries the goodness, it is the fruit inside. I don’t know who is doomed. I have seen people who were lost, dying in hopelessness and bitterness, rejecting every kind word or deed. Perhaps they were doomed, but who am I to know? Would it make a difference to the way I would treat them?
I have travelled around looking at people in the world and I have found that you can see poverty in the eyes of people (this I picked up from an Egyptologist) and it seems to not depend on what belief they have or whether they own a lot or a little, but whether they have enough and whether they have hope. I believe that someone who has a Tao, a path that he can walk, cannot be poor - regardless of how much money he has in his pocket. But there are people who have multiple houses, cars, boats, partners and whatever – and because they haven’t enough, they are poor. “What use is it to own the whole world and lose your soul?â€
In the end it is all about faith, hope and love. Faith to set one foot before the other, the hope of having a goal to head for, and the feeling of being loved, wanted and life having a purpose.
The Bible is ambivalent about the fate of the “wickedâ€. There are a lot of warnings and threats, but no outright damnation. The exclusiveness of Christ is about his mission, not about the fate of others. I think that it would be “Christian†to act like the Samaritan and try to be the neighbour of anyone on the side of the road. Jesus praises people other than Jews for their presentation of faith, and wishes he could find the same at home. I feel the same sometimes.
Shalom
Then your faith is that of my own. I do seem to get those loud Christian zealots confused with the good guys even if they speak the same language. Beautiful, Bob. I just wish everyone felt this - what a lovely world it would be. Hey, what a lovely ILP it would be, eh?
Happy Holidays.
My faith is the faith in somethingness. My faith is in the faith of my inseperability with the entire natural universe. It’s easy to think that we are seperate from everything, but I know the one-ness is inherent in all of us. It’s like taking an organism, and thinking it’s seperate, but that organism relies on the environment it lives in, relies on the food and water supply, and that is a condition of the temperature from the sun, and the gravity it relies on to keep everything in tact, is a product of the solar system, and the solar system remaining stable is a product of the galaxy, which ends up being a product of the universe. If you actually look carefully, you can see the inseperability of these things. You can’t have one without the other. It’s like taking the universe, and asking, which part do you prefer? The Sun? the earth? the gravitational pull? Which part of your body do you prefer? The brain? the stomach? the heart? These things are one. That is what gives me faith.
My faith and peace comes from meditation and peace of mind. Because if I’m talking to you, but I never listen, how am I ever going to hear anything you have to say. In the same way, if I’m talking to myself all the time, then I never have anything to think about except thoughts. My peace comes from going out of my mind at least once a day. Because if I don’t go out of my mind, I feel like a rough and rigid bridge, that because it has no give, no craziness in it, is going to be blown down in the first hurricane.
My faith comes from not taking life too seriously. From stepping back and asking myself “remember the important things in life, family, friendship, love”. My faith comes from knowing whatever happens, even in death, my wife and I cannot be seperated, because we will always exist somewhere in this crazy existence, because nothing can truly be seperated from it. If the universe started with the potential for love, that was a quality inherent in the seed, and that will always be there, and this is where we will always reside, in that beautiful potential for expression. Most importantly I gain faith and peace from stopping trying to figure things out, and living life instead of philosophizing about it. I mean, if you’re always searching, looking, seeking, to the future, you’re never going to be in the present. And I’ve realized the future is probably going to contain more of the present, so I have learned to love Now. I have learned to stop looking for miracles, and realizing the miracle is right in front of my eyes, and has been here all along. Life isn’t about the destination, it’s about the journey.
And during this time of thanksgiving, I suppose I ought to give thanks to where most of my faith and understanding has come from. Because I know even if I don’t have the greatest personal teachers in my life, I can always turn to the teachings and insights of Buddha, Lao Tzu, Chuang Tze, Christ, Alan Watts, Sri Ramana, Thich Nhat Hanh, and so many others. Most of all I’ve realized, as quoted in my signature, if you don’t get it from yourself, where will you get it?
I’ve learned that the mystery of life is not a problem to be solved, but a reality to be experienced. That’s my faith. =)
Very nice, t.
Bessy
My faith is in God. 
my faith is in a lot of things, unfortunately. but i believe that no religion has it right. i like christianity because i think they definitely have their hearts in the right place (most of them). and i call myself christian for two reasons: one) because where i am, it’s predominantly christian and i want my ideas respected, and two) because i like christianity and i want my way of thinking (which tends to be more tolerant and acceptive of other’s viewpoints than stereotypical christianity) to be seen and recognized as christian by others, and to be seen by other christians as a way to live. after all, “you must be the change you wish to see in the world.”
im going to have to say arg caveman no! im going to say that the fact that time moves along its ‘x’ - ‘y’ axis at a relatively constant speed (relative to your observer, relatively), i just refuse to imagine that it is physically in the same category as up left and forward.
imagine you made a universe out of physical particles, little dots or little waves on a fabric. those dots can move in three dimensions so that we can eat food and poop out of different holes without having to cut our bodies in half (obscure reference high five). those particles can “:MOVE:” in three dimensions. your particles will move up left and forward and the definition of the word move will only make sense if you consider the concept of time. you dont need the concept of ‘up’ to understand moving left. time is an overarching concept that is not a ‘dimension.’ general relativity went too far.
im sorry its a huge pet peeve.
in a really cool movie called “Waking Life”, one of the random philosophy speakers mentions an ancient pseudo-christian religion that preached that at the year 50AD, a DEMIURGE, or some angel dude whos not quite god but almost, FROZE TIME right before jesus came back for the reckoning. and ever since then, we have been experiencing subsequent frozen moments of time. and before 50AD, there was a completely different crazy manifestation of time that we can only dream of, and it was totally different than the subsequent separate moments that we THINK we are smoothly transitioning through. wow dude man.
extra awesome dimensions are quite awesome. but why? why do you think that any of that stuff exists?
oh
depending on what origin? what defines which cosmological levels a life form can include. why do you believe this?
i like the sound of that! sign me up, as long as its cheaper than scientology.
what experiments?
ok i am now reading your whole link no matter how drunk it forces me to get, The Kybalion:
i dont like the word ‘probably’ here
BOOYA zero point field x3. i know that shit like the back of my hand (except for the math). science stupidly assumes that further exploration of the zero point field wont neatly wrap everything up in a completely intuitive package. thats why they dont know. i know.
i can see that. if you multiply certain units of matter by the speed of light squared you get a certain amount of units of energy each time. there is a direct correlation between the value of a ‘protons worth’ of matter and a ‘protons worth’ of energy. they are interchangeable. why is energy ‘higher’ than matter? is it because the huge field of energy that surrounds us all is a mysterious thing of which we know very little? refer to my previous paragraph.
teachings with a capital T
sigh
the thing goes on to talk about telepathy with a few big distracting words. i dont count that stuff out at all! i totally believe its possible (not the stuff on tv).
however, as i read that part i noticed what might be the appeal of this particular religion. the connectivity of various states of being. “everything vibrates” “if you vibrate a spinning top really fast it will make noise like a vibrating string and then light like a vibrating electron” and therefore the idea of matter and sound and light are all combined into one. and then, out of nowhere, boom zap all of our mental states are also vibratory and interchangeable in the same way.
the site segued away from the physics of the spinning top straight into telepathy and the connectedness of our minds without any reason at all.
i knew that! it has nothing to do with the laws of physics! this guys just said the word vibration on the same website he describes physics using the word vibration and the two separate concepts are supposed to be the same concept? why didnt he just say that emotional states are manipulatable and reproducible just like physical objects we are familiar with? why did he need the big fancy metaphor? because i already knew emotional states are just as explainable as the laws of physics, its intuitive; what i didnt know is that some jerk is saying that my emotions are directly related to the physics of the universe.
they arent directly related to the physics of the universe, they just follow the same law. when i say the same law i mean that they follow laws: thats the law. sad happens when bad things from outside affect you and you are afraid of what your life will be like now that it happened, electron goes towards proton when their charges are opposite. they are both exactly predictable, but its not immediately apparent that they are. and they really arent.
but when somebody says he figured it all out and hes got a big ol Solution with your name on it and it seems to make sense to you in a way that the competitors dont, because of his fancy descriptions of physical phenomena and you just cant imagine why he would lie to you (i cant), it becomes very easy to believe what some hack says about stuff you dont know anything about (see: most future man posts in the natural sciences board)
oh NO WAY!!! you got miracles!!! holy crap dude why didnt you say so!!! oh boy thank god you found these guys, i totally thought there was no such thing as miracles. praise thee O ambiguous one!
so, uh, what miracles is the writer refering to?