The First Contact between a Christian and a Muslim (Part 1)

part I

You should have the bible to see the Evidences in front of your eyes…
100% sure>>>>> or Mind back…sorry money back.

Acknowledgment
I am an American raised from childhood in the Christian belief. Until I began my soul’s quest for God, I had taken many matters of importance for granted.
After discussions, reading, and rereading the manuscript of the present Muslim Christian Dialogue, I have gone over the quotations from the King James Version of the Holy Bible and the Holy Qur’an.
I finally announce my shahadah (testimony) publicly in English, then in Arabic: I bear witness that there is no deity except Allah, Who has no partner, and that Muhammad is His servant and messenger (a shhadu an la illaha illa Allah, wahdahu la sharikah lahu wa ashhadu anna Muhammadan 'abduhu wa rasulahu).
Through this very basic and simple testimony, I believe many people will submit to Allah in spirit and truth.
I hope that this short and easy to read booklet will be read worldwide and will attract many who are searching for a true belief where their minds may find rest and satisfaction.
Roy Earl Johnson

Note from the Author
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
This booklet has been written as the result of dialogues that I had with members of the Christian clergy and laity. The discussions were polite, pleasant, friendly, and constructive without the slightest intention of hurting the religious feeling of any Christian. It is provocative and a challenge to Christianity. It is indispensable for those looking for the truth and those studying Comparative religion.
C: Christian
M or m: Muslim
(pbuh): peace be upon him
(pbut): peace be upon them
(The latter two phrases are said by all pious Muslims after mentioning the name of a prophet. They will be assumed throughout this booklet).
H. M. Baagil, M. D.
January 1 984

Introduction
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
I am grateful to Allah for the opportunity to read the manuscript of Muslim Christian Dialogue and for being asked to write an introduction to this remarkably eye opening booklet. Anyone interested in comparative religion will find in this booklet many surprises that challenge what many once believed to be absolute truths.
This work by Dr. Hasan M. Baagil reflects his meticulous and painstaking effort to present his findings clearly, concisely, and thoroughly. As a result of his study of Christianity and the Bible over a four year period, Dr. Baagil, a dedicated Muslim, learned that Christians differ in their basic beliefs (i.e., the Trinity, the divinity of Jesus, etc.), that Church doctrine contradicts the Bible numerous times, and that the Bible even contradicts itself! His conversations with Christian clergy and laity during this period of study have provided the impetus for the Muslim Christian Dialogue.
The reader will be surprised to learn that, in the Bible, Jesus (pbuh) never claimed to be God; that he did not die on the cross; that the miracles performed by him were also performed by many other prophets and even by disbelievers; and that Jesus himself prophesied the advent of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon both of them. All of this plus much more is detailed from clear and concise passages of the Bible. The question that obviously must be raised after witnessing such clear contradictions is: Is the Bible God’s Word? The effort here by Dr. Baagil is not intended to deride Christian people, and certainly not to mock Jesus and his teachings, as Allah forbids such activities. The intent is only to point out that false charges, misrepresentations, and outright lies against Allah and His prophets are in themselves both deriding and mocking in nature.
Muslim Christian Dialogue also makes clear the Islamic view and shows how the Qur’an, revealed to the Prophet Muhammad some six hundred years after Jesus, peace be upon both of them, corrects the errors that crept (knowingly or unknowingly) into the message that Jesus brought. This booklet should prove to be a very valuable asset to Muslims and Christians, particularly given the interest in dialogues between the two faiths. God willing, it will be an effective tool for Muslims in our efforts to invite Christians to Islam. Conversely Christians should become more aware of what in fact the Bible says and what Jesus (pbuh) actually taught as a result of studying this booklet. Indeed, as a Muslim the hope is that non-Muslims will accept the truth and bear witness to the oneness of Allah and that Muhammad is His servant and messenger.
May Allah reward Dr. Baagil for his efforts to dispel darkness. May Allah’s peace be upon us all.
Muhammad A. Nubee

The First Contact between a Christian and a Muslim
C. Why have there been in the last decade many discussions held between Christians and Muslims about their beliefs?
M. I think because we both have several things in common. We believe in the One Creator Who sent many Prophets and in Jesus as the Messiah as well as the Word of God who was denied by the Jews.
Our Holy Qur’an mentions in Surah 3:45:
[Remember] when the angels said: ‘O Mary! Verily Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word from Him, his name will be Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and in the hereafter, and of those who are near to Allah…’
Dialogues have been held everywhere in Europe, Canada, the United States, and Australia. Even the Vatican has participated: discussions were held between Vatican theologians and Egyptian Muslim scholars in Rome in 1970 and in Cairo in 1974 and 1978. Another series of discussions between Vatican theologians and Saudi Arabian Muslim scholars was held in Rome in 1974. Muslims have also been invited by many churches to present Islam.
C. If Christianity is nearly two thousand years old and Islam more than fourteen hundred years old, why were these discussions not held centuries ago?
M. For the last three to four centuries, many Asian and African countries that had been ruled by Muslims were colonized by Britain France, Holland, Belgium, Spain, and Portugal. Many Christian missionary and religious colonists tried to convert as many Muslims as they could by whatever means they had: giving medical treatment clothes, food, and jobs to the poor. However, only a few converted. A small part of the elite was converted to Christianity because of its belief that Christianity brought civilization and progress. They adopted this mistaken idea because they believed that western style progress was attained after the separation of church and state in Europe.
After the Second World War, many Muslims from Asian and African countries emigrated to the West as workers and professionals. This brought them into much closer contact with Christians. Also, students were active in introducing Islam.
C. Do you see other reasons why many dialogues are held nowadays even by their respective missions?
M. I think the gap between both is becoming smaller as each is more tolerant, although both are still competing for converts. I still remember my Christian teacher, who used to say: “Muhammad the imposter, the dreamer, the epileptic.” You now find fewer writers depicting Islam in such a manner.
We Muslims feel closer to the Christians than to the Jews and disbelievers, as the Qur’an prophesied in Surah 5:82: You will find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And you will find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: ‘Lo! We are Christians.’ This is because there are among them priests and monks (i.e., persons entirely devoted to the service of God, as were the Muslims), and because they are not proud." Some Christian denominations are making tremendous progress now by acknowledging for the first time in history that Muhammad descended from Ishmael through his second son Kedar. The Davis Dictionary of the Bible (1980), sponsored by the Board of Christian Education of the Presbyterian Church in the USA, writes under the word “Kedar”: “… A tribe descended from Ishmael (Gen. 25:13) … The people of Kedar were Pliny’s Cedrai, and from their tribe Mohammed ultimately arose.” The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia quotes the following from A. S. Fulton: “… Of the Ishmaelite tribes, Kedar must have been one of the most important and thus in later times the name came to be applied to all the wild tribes of the desert. It is through Kedar (“Keidar” in Arabic) that Muslim genealogists trace the descent of Mohammed from Ishmael.”
Also Smith’s Bible Dictionary prints the following: “Kedar (black). Second son of Ishmael (Gen. 25:13) … Mohammed traces his lineage to Abraham through the celebrated Koreish tribe, which sprang from Kedar. The Arabs in the Hejaz are called Beni Harb (men of war), and are Ishmaelites as of old, from their beginning. Palgrave says their language is as pure now as when the Koran was written (A.D. 610), having remained unchanged more than 1200 years; a fine proof of the permanency of Eastern Institutions.”
The biggest asset brought by Muslim immigrants to the West is not their manpower but Islam, which is now taking root here. Many mosques and Islamic centers have been established and many people have reverted to Islam. I prefer the word “reverted” and not “converted,” as everybody is born in submission to Allah‹Islam‹and so being a Muslim is the nature of every single individual. The parents or the community convert him to Judaism, Christianity, other faiths, or atheism.
This is also a proof that Islam is not spreading by the sword but simply by propagation on the part of Muslim individuals or groups. We don’t have special missions organized as in Christian missions.
The world population has increased 136 percent from 1934 through 1984, Christianity with 47 percent and Islam with 235 percent. These figures can be checked in The Plain Truth, February 1984, in its fiftieth anniversary issue, quoting from The World Almanac and Book of Facts 1935, and The Reader’s Digest Almanac and Yearbook 1983.
C. If all three religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, claim to emanate from the One and same Creator, why do they differ?
M. All prophets from Adam to Muhammad were sent with the same message: man’s total submission to Allah. In Arabic, this submission is called “Islam,” which also means peace, peace between the Creator and His creatures. Unlike the names Judaism and Christianity, the name Islam was given by Allah Himself, as mentioned in Surah 5:3: This day I have perfected your religion for you and completed My favor on you, and have chosen for you Islam as your way of life. Neither “Judaism” nor “Christianity” is found in the Bible or in a Bible dictionary. No Israelite prophet said the word “Judaism.” Jesus never claimed to establish Christianity and never called himself a Christian. The word “Christian” is mentioned only three times in the New Testament and first by pagans and Jews in Antioch about 43 A.D., long after Jesus had left this earth. Read in Acts 11:26: “… And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.”
Later by King Agrippa II to Paul in Acts 26:28: “Then Agrippa said unto Paul” Almost thou persuades" me to be a Christian.’ ’
So the name Christian was first given by foes rather than friends. And finally by Peter in his letter to comfort the faithful in I Peter 4: 16: "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed… "
The first Muslim on earth was not Muhammad but Abraham, who submitted totally to Allah. But Islam as a way of life had been revealed to other prophets prior to Abraham, such as Adam and Noah. Then Islam follows as the way of life for all humanity.
C. How could Abraham be a Muslim? It is known that he was a Jew.
M. A Jew? Who told you that?
C. We are taught that, so it must be confirmed by the Bible.
M. Can you show me where in the Bible it says that he was a Jew? If you can’t find it quickly, let me help you. Read Genesis 11:31.
C. “And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son’s son, and Sarai his daughter in-law, his son Abram’s wife, and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran and dwelt there.”
M. So Abraham who was born in Ur of Chaldees could not have been a Jew. First because Ur of Chaldees was in Mesopotamia, which is now a part of Iraq. He was then more an Arab than a Jew. Secondly the name “Jew” came after the existence of Judah, the great grandson of Abraham (see chart on page 4). Read further, Genesis 12:4 and 5.
C. " … and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran… and into the land of Canaan they came.
M. So Abraham emigrated to Canaan at the age of seventy five and the Bible clearly mentioned that he was there a stranger m Genesis 17:8: “And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.” Read now Genesis 14:13.
C. "And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew… " M. How can you call Abraham a Jew if the Bible itself calls him a Hebrew which means a man from the other side of the Euphrates. It also means pertaining to Eber, a descendant of Shem. Read now in Genesis 32:28 what happened to the name of Jacob after wrestling with an angel.
C. “And he said: ‘Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.’”
M. So Abraham was a Hebrew. The descendants of Jacob were Israelites consisting of the twelve tribes. Judah was nicknamed “Jew” so that only Judah’s descendants were called Jews originally. To know who Moses really was, read Exodus 6:16-20.
C. “And these are the names of the sons of Levi according to their generations; Ghershon, and Kohath, and Merari… And the sons of Kohath: Amram… And Amram took him Jochebed his father’s sister to wife; and she bore him Aaron and Moses.”
M. So Moses was not a Jew, because he was not descended from Judah, but a Levite. Moses was the “law giver” (Torah is law) to the children of Israel.
C. How can you explain that?
M. Because we are using the Holy Qur’an as standard. You can explain the Bible and correct the Jewish and Christian prejudice with the context of the Qur’an. It is the last revealed book and has never been corrupted or adulterated. Its contents has been guaranteed by Allah in Surah 2:2: This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt… and also in Surah 15:9: No doubt We have sent down the Qur’an and surely We will guard it (from corruption). This verse is a challenge to mankind. It is a clear fact that more than fourteen hundred years have passed and not a single word of this Qur’an has been changed although disbelievers tried their utmost to change it, but they failed miserably in their efforts. As it is mentioned in this Holy Verse: “We will guard this Book” by Allah, He has guarded it.
On the contrary, all the other holy books (Torah, Psalms, Gospels etc.) have been adulterated in the form of additions, deletions or alterations from the original.
C. What does the Qur’an say about Abraham and Moses that you can deduce from the Bible?
M. In Surah 3:65:
O people of the Scripture [Jews and Christians]! Why do you dispute about Abraham, while the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have you then no sense?
And in Surah 3:67:
Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true Muslim (worshiper of none but Allah alone) and he joined none in worship with Allah.
In Surah 2:140:
Or say you that Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the twelve sons of Jacob were Jews or Christians? Say (of Muhammad), ‘Do you know better or does Allah? And who is more unjust than he who conceals the testimony he has from Allah?’ And Allah is not unaware of what you do. Of course they were not Jews or Christians, as the name “Jews” came after Judah and the name “Christians” came long after Jesus had left.
C. It feels strange to hear the name Allah. Why don’t you say “God” if you speak English?
M. Yes, indeed, the name “Allah” seems to be strange to non-Muslims, but this name has been used by all prophets since Adam until Muhammad. It is a contraction of the two Arabic words AIlah, i.e., The God. By dropping the letter “I,” you will find the word Allah. According to its position in an Arabic sentence, it can have the form “Allaha,” which is close to the Hebrew name of the Creator, i.e. “Eloha.” But the Jews are using wrongly the plural form “Elohim,” which denotes more than one God. The word “Allaha” sounds closer to the Aramaic word for God used by Jesus, namely, “Alaha” (see Encyclopedia Britannica 1980 under “Allah” and “Elohim”). So while the name “Allah” is strange to non-Muslims, it is not strange to all prophets from Adam to Muhammad, as they propagated in principle the same Islam‹total submission‹and the word “Allah” denotes the personal name of the Supreme Being. It is not subject to plurality or gender, so there is no such thing as “Allahs,” or a male or female “Allah,” as is the case with Gods or God and Goddess. It is confusing to use the word God, as many English speaking Christians consider Jesus as God. Even the word “Creator” is also confusing, as many Christians maintain that Jesus created the world. Not only the name “Allah” is strange, but also the way Muslims worship Allah with ablution, bowing, kneeling, prostration and fasting is strange to non-Muslims, but not strange to all of the prophets. While ablution (washing of face, arms, feet, and moistening of the hair) prior to worship is not done by modern Christians, it is required of Muslims and previous prophets, as seen in the following biblical passages: Exodus 40:31-32: “And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet thereat; When they went into the tent of the congregation, and when they came near unto the altar, they washed; as the Lord commanded Moses.” Although Paul made many changes in Jesus’ teaching, he was faithful in respect to ablution, as seen in Acts 21:26: “Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple’…” Muslim women perform their prayer with their head covered, as in I Corinthians 11:5-6, 13: “But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonourerh her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered… Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered” Muslims worship with bowing, kneeling, prostration, and without shoes 1 , as was done by previous prophets: Psalms 95:6: “O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the Lord our maker”; Joshua 5: 14: "And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship’‘; I Kings 18:42: “And Elijah went up to the top of Carmel; and he cast himself down upon the earth, and put his face between his knees”; Numbers 20:6: “… and they [Moses and Aaron] fell upon their faces: and the glory of the Lord appeared upon them”; Genesis 17:3: “And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying …”, and Exodus 3:5 and Acts 7:33: “And he [God] said [to Moses], 'Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.”’
A Christian will be very surprised to learn that the pilgrimage (hajj), which consists of Muslims circumambulating around the sacred stone (i.e., the Ka’bah) in Makkah, had been performed by many prophets, even by Israelite prophets.
C. I never read anything about the pilgrimage or the sacred stone (i.e., Ka’bah) in the Bible.
M. This has been mentioned clearly several times but is usually overlooked by those who read the Bible. For example:

1. Jacob, on his way to Padan aram, saw a vision and built the next morning a pillar of stone which he called Beth EI, i.e. the House of the Lord (Genesis 28:18-19).
2. Years later the same Prophet, Jacob, was ordered by Allah to go to Bethel (Genesis 35:4, 14-15). Jacob removed all of the strange gods prior to going there. Later, Prophet Muhammad also removed all idols around the sacred stone (i.e., Ka’bah in Makkah).
3. Another pillar was built by Jacob and his father-in-law, Laban, (Genesis 31:45-49): “And Jacob took a stone, and set it up for a pillar. And Jacob said unto his brethren: ‘Gather stones.’ And they took stones, and made a heap; and they did eat there upon the heap. And Laban called it Jegar sahadutha, but Jacob called it Galeed … and Mizpah, for he said: 'The Lord watch between me and thee …”’
4. Jephthah and Ammon had a war against each other. Jephthah swore to the Lord in Mizpah of Gilead to sacrifice his only daughter if he won. He did win, and burnt his daughter there alive as an offering to the Lord (Judges 11:29-39).
5. Four hundred thousand swordsmen from the eleven tribes of Israel swore before the Lord in Mizpeh to exterminate the tribes of Benjamin (Judges 20 and 21).
6. The children of Israel, under Samuel, swore in Mizpeh to destroy their idols if they won against the Philistines (I Samuel 7).
7. The whole nation of Israel assembled in Mizpeh when Samuel was appointed king of Israel (I Samuel 10).
   It is obvious now that there is no Mizpah left in the world, except the oldest one in the Holy City of Makkah built by Abraham and his son Ishmael, from whom later Prophet Muhammad arose. Muslims are really the followers of all prophets. I can tell you other things about Muslims, Islam and Muhammad in the Bible, but why should you know this if you are not looking for the truth?
   C. I am sure of my own belief as a Christian but I would also like to know more about both religions. I sometimes feel ridiculed as a Christian after reading books written by Muslims.
   M. Did it affect you in your religious life?
   C. Yes. I am not going to Church as regularly as before. I have been secretly reading books written by Muslims. I have asked several Muslims to explain matters that were not clear to me, but have not yet been satisfied. I am looking for a belief that I can rely on, that can give me peace of mind, that is scientifically acceptable, and one that I don’t have to believe in blindly.
   M. I appreciate your sentiments. However, as we are not allowed to force people to become Muslim, I want to be sure that you are really interested in learning the truth before I continue.
   C. You mean that I can believe what I want and that nobody can force me to believe in something else?
   M. Yes, for the Qur’an says that there is no compulsion in religion.
   C. Then why are Muslims calling other people to accept Islam?
   M. As Christians ask the Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah, we Muslims ask the Christians, as well as Jews and all mankind, to accept Muhammad as the seal of the prophets. Our Prophet Muhammad said: “Convey my message, even one ayah (verse of the Holy Qur’an).”
   Also, Isaiah mentioned in chapter 21:13: “The burden upon Arabia,” which means the responsibility of the Muslim Arabs, to spread Islam. Isaiah mentioned this after he saw in a vision a chariot of asses and a chariot of camels (21:7): “And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels; and he hearkened diligently with much heed.”
   The chariot of asses turned out to be Jesus, who entered Jerusalem (John 12: 14; Matthew 21: 5). Who then was the chariot of camels? It could not be other than Muhammad, who came about six hundred years after the advent of Jesus. If this is not accepted, then this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.
   C. Your explanation stimulates me to review the Bible more carefully. I would like to have more discussions with you.
   M. Yes, if you are successful in this world, it doesn’t mean that you will be successful in the hereafter. The hereafter is much better and more lasting than this life. People are now becoming more materialistic and secular. Let’s meet some more and discuss the differences frankly and without prejudice. Islam is based on reason, and you should not just accept it. Even your Bible says: “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (I Thessalonians 5:21).
   C. You mentioned just now a “chariot of camels” from Isaiah and drew the conclusion that it was Muhammad. Is he then prophesied in the Bible?
   M. Sure.
   C. In the Old or New Testament?
   M. In both. But you cannot recognize him in the Bible as long as you don’t believe in the oneness of God. As long as you still believe in the Trinity, the divinity of Jesus, the divine son ship of Jesus, and the doctrines of Original Sin and Atonement. All of these were made by men. Jesus prophesied that people would worship him uselessly and believe in doctrines made by men: “But in vain they do worship me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men” (Matthew 15:9).
   End Of Part I

Please ask for part II. if you are interested.
thanks.

I’m going to sign on as a disinterested party.

WOW, and what happens to Christians who invite Muslims to Christianity in, for example Saudi Arabia?

Sorry, I have read much of the Qur’an and dismiss it just as I do the Bible. Also, the Qur’an totally opposes the Torah, the Isaac and Ishmael message.

I guess you know what you can do with this propaganda, and all the nutcases who behead the kafir and infidels.

Submit to Sharia law? Never!

A Deist, Feminist, Goy ZIONIST!!!

clarityandresolve.com/:

A totally “I HATE ISLAMOFACISIAST GUY,” but he know this: So much for an Islamic love fest. Now here are a few other sites, and these are just a few:
israelnationalnews.com/
homelandsecurityus.com/
pmw.org.il/

BTW: I also read Al Jazeera, Al Ahram, Arab News, and others, have had numerous correspondences from their reporters who cannot acknowledge that some of the Middle-Eastern problems are because of the medieval mind-set.

Sorry moderators, this is one issue I am really peeved about, especailly since Gaza is melting down and the Arabs are blaming Israel, after they rampaged, burned down synagogues, etc.

Read DEPKA File for insight. Chuckle, Lebanon is cracking down on Hizbollah.

Before other go on a rampage remember, I know Samuels, etc., in the Bible. I have discounted the Bible too.

• 3 Indonesian Christian school girls beheaded

  • dozens killed in triple jihad attacks in India
  • And one more peaceful inner struggle occurrence before I tune this madness out with some Boston Bruins hockey: four killed in God’s name in Algeria

  Rebels, believed to be members of al Qaeda-aligned Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat (GSPC), cut the throat of an injured soldier after firing on him at an ambush late on Wednesday in Skikda province, some 500 km (310 miles) east of the capital, Algiers, national dailies, including Liberte and El Khabar, said.

  Two civilians were killed two hours later when their car drove over a bomb planted by the same militants, who apparently targeted a military convoy, newspapers said.

  In a separate attack, rebels slit the throat of a 70-year-old shepherd in the neighbouring province of Batna.

Don’t you just love how al-Reuters can somehow describe the vicious murder of civilians and call their murderers “militants” or “rebels” in the same sentence? Class act.

I was busy today, and didn’t even think about a computer for most of the day, so these are just a few of the poignant Religion of Peace vignettes I caught—all happening several thousands of miles away from each other. In the cause of Islam. Allah is sure to be pleased with his socipathic flunkies.

aspacia

Yea, calm down…
this is a philosophy way of understanding religion topic.

you are talking about humans errors who understand Islam in different way. Even if they are Muslims…

I’m really sorry about your people in Isreal. again I am talking about Islam religion itself, NOT Politics,

Or we can discuss what is the bloody history we had here in America.

God Bless the whole world and Amarica.

Yes, “had” is the prime word, while “have” would be the word for the muslim world.

I want you to see these links to understand what is the real Islam says about Terrorism?

islamdoor.com/Terror.htm

themodernreligion.com/terror/terrorism.htm

Had,Have

You are correct, I do become peeved when individuals prosthetize their faith. Also, I am a goy, and not Jewish.

Besides, there are huge contradictions in the Qur’an, Bible, Torah. Besides, they all three cannot be correct.

Mohammed was a merchant, married a smart businesswomen, then had visions. God spoke to Noah, and he built an ark? Jesus was from the working class and had visions. Moses managed to free his people (actually, evidence of this cannot be found except in the Bible) and had visions. The desert heat can fry the brain.

Also, I am well aware of the bloody, vicious history of Christianity, what the early Spanish, French and English military and colonists did to the Native Americans. I am also ware of what the Native Americans did to each other and the settlers. That is, the tribes hated each other more than the Whites and often sided with the Whites against the opposing tribes.

Besides, Christian and Jewish theologians are much more open regarding the tenets of their faith than Islamic theologians. Still have no response from an actual theologian, only lay-people, like noetician, who appears to actually understand the tenets of her Shia faith.

WOW, I perused your links. The first one some recently have been advocating, but I never hear them condem the attacks upon Israell, all Israelis are a legitimate target, and frankly totally dismissed the second one:
"
2. Americans, don’t let this tragedy be in vain. Wake up and realise that you cannot ignore the injustices your government commits abroad. The American government is hated for many reasons - it is time to consider these and make changes. "

Take a good look at the Middle-East, the crimes that Muslims commit against each other, what their Muslim leaders do to their people, how many public beheadings a week in Saudi Arabia? etc. This is not our doing, it is part of a medieval, mind-set. Remember, we have been pressuring the Middle-East to reform. Also, we did not step-in when the Iraqi leaders opted for Sharia law.

My point is that the USA government leaders are not any worse that 95% of the other nations in the world and often, they are much better. Also, I am no fan of King George. Look at the mess in Zimbabwe, did we create that, no. The idiot expelled the Whites, often killing and beating them, and what was Africa’s bread basket, is now about to starve.

Now, go to Saudi Arabia and preach regarding Christianity and see what happens, better yet, Iran. Try being a Jew in the many Middle-Eastern countries. Islam is often very intolerant of other faiths and if its followers do not outright murder those of another faith, they tax them or expell them from the land. How many Buddhists, Christians, or Jews play with body parts of their enemy. Yes, I have seen the vile videos of the Arabs play with body parts, impaling individuals, etc. Currently, more Palestinians are being killed by each other than the Israelis, especially in Gaza. Look at the huge outrcry, when U.S. soldiers torched the body of dead insurgents (necessary in the desert as they were bloating and flies were swarming and getting into the soldier rations) Oh, but no recollection of the civlian contractors killed, torched and hung for public display. What hypocrisy. Islam is no better than any other faith.

Look at what happens to those who criticize Islam in the West. They suffer death threats or are assasinated. Remember Theo Van Gogh, how about the female politician in the Netherlands who is still in hiding.

I have read much more regarding this hypocricy, being so thin skinned regarding a faith causes one to pause and think regarding the major problems of this faith.

Also, if not political WOW, why did you post the second link which is nothing but anti US propaganda.

There are two sides to every issue. There are many extremist Christians and Jews, but I do not currenlty see them perpetrating the violence that I see in the Middle-East and in many Western Muslim communities. That is they may be abusive to their wives and children, but do not do so in the name of their faith. In contrast, this commonly occurs in Islam.

Thankfully, we have many Muslims in the West who do oppose the traditional Islamic mind-set, and believe that the Middle-East is a mess, but I seldom hear them accept the possibility that many of the problems stem from the literal interpretation of the Qur’an, which appears to be the problem.

Responses to Islam:, and I have much more.

mostmerciful.com/reply-ans-islam.htm
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/a … 003891.php
answering-islam.org/Quran/index.html

November 11, 2004
Low profile for German Qur’an challenger

This is the groundbreaking scholar who famously postulated that the Qur’an’s virgins of paradise were really white raisins. From Reuters, with thanks to Nicolei:

PARIS (Reuters) - When a Muslim radical murdered the Dutch director Theo van Gogh for a film criticising Islam, Christoph Luxenberg saw his name ripple through Internet forums 1,000 times and immediately knew why.

"The safety of experts on Islam is topical again," he said -- in a surprisingly detached tone for the author of a critique of the Koran who fears it could one day spark similar anger.

Van Gogh, murdered last week for a film slamming Muslim treatment of women, set out to be provocative. But such is the apprehension among critics of Islam that even an obscure German professor of ancient Semitic languages keeps a very low profile.

"Christoph Luxenberg" is a pseudonym. The professor hides his work from his own students -- even those who recommend it to him, not knowing he is its author. He gives interviews by phone and offers little hint of who he really is or where he lives.

This has served Luxenberg well over the past four years, when his book "The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran" was only available in dense academic German. But he doesn’t know what to expect when an English translation appears next year.

"I fear a strong reaction in the Islamic world," he told Reuters late on Wednesday by telephone. "My Muslim friends tell me that many people will jump on this book."

The fate of Islamic reformers in the Arab world is sobering.

In the 1990s in Egypt, the writer Faraq Foda was gunned down for criticising fundamentalists and Cairo University professor Nasr Hamid Abu Zaid was forced to divorce his wife and flee abroad for examining the Koran in its historical context.

Luxenberg thinks the academic nature of his work sets him apart from Salman Rushdie, the British writer threatened with death in 1989 by fundamentalists insulted by his novel "The Satanic Verses", which toys with the idea that the Koran is not infallibly divine.

But although he originally thought he could publish under his own name, Muslim friends warned him not to. He said van Gogh’s murder "confirms how right they were"....

His thesis that the Koran had Aramaic forerunners, possibly Christian writings, also challenges the tradition that the Koran was dictated in Arabic to Mohammad by the Angel Gabriel and consists of the actual and unchangeable words of God.

"If you challenge that, quite a few things fall apart, so the Muslims don’t want to accept this," Luxenberg said, adding that liberal Muslims had encouraged him to continue his work.

"My work does not question the Koran, only the traditional exegesis of the Koran -- what men have read into it."

"I’m not afraid," he continued. "I know what I’m doing is serious and I’m not doing it to destroy Islam. But it would do Islam good if Muslims could discuss it freely. That would help them progress in so many ways."

Indeed. But many would rather see him dead first. Christianity has engaged in and profited from the explorations of scholars like Luxenberg; why not Islam? This imperviousness to self-reflection and self-criticism is disheartening: I myself (though I do not mean to compare myself to Luxenberg as a scholar) have yet to see a Muslim engage my own work constructively and discuss the questions I have raised from Islamic texts. Instead, I am smeared as an “Islamophobe” and derided as ignorant (I can think of three Muslim spokesmen who have done this just this week). It’s an easy charge to make, but without any direct refutation of what I have written, it is empty. Even if that were an accurate characterization of me, my questions remain: where is moderate Islam? How can moderate Muslims refute the radical exegesis of the Qur’an and Sunnah? If an exposition of moderate Islam does not address or answer radical exegeses, is it really of any value to quash Islamic extremism? If the answer lies in a simple rejection of Qur’anic literalism, how can non-literalists make that rejection stick, and keep their children from being recruited by jihadists by means of literalism?

If it is ignorant to ask those questions, call me Dumbo – but the 800-pound gorilla in the living room remains: no moderate Muslim has adequately answered them.

And Christoph Luxenberg, one of the brightest scholars of this generation, must work under an assumed name and fear for his life – in the heart of Europe.

aspacia ducks at the stones are thrown. It is called the courage of your convictions, and frankly, my conviction is that much of humanity’s problems stem from religion.

so…what is the point of this thread cause i didn’t catch it?