WOW Islam

Hi WOW,

I used to do some private research on Islam in my school days. I was quite taken with the Sufi branch for a while. Right now, you have several topics on the board on the topic of Islam, and I would like to discuss some points here, of you would.

First problem, in the muslim religion, how is man saved?

Second issue: The Bible.

Who do you include as a prophet of the Old Teatament? You mention several iniquitous passages in scripture, are many of those by people we respect as religous progenitors? (I set aside those for whom we should cover their shame.)

The difference between inspiration and revelation. For the Moslems I have read, the Bible is inspired: even of Issa, who was a revelation, the writings were only inspired; while the Koran was a revelation, like the Messiah. (What IS the function of a Messiah in Islam? Perhaps you can tell me.) Christ was the seal of the Saints while Mohammed was seal of the Prophets for them.

I don’t like discussing these things on the board, because there are athiests who will only mock at this. Let’s not discuss too deeply in public here.

Cordially,
mrn

Hi mrn

my pleasure to answer your questions with all my respect.
Firstly, I would say that your research on Islam is NOT completed or in other words, it wasn’t so clear to get your information.
If you are still doing your research about ISLAM, you should obtain the information from the source….so where is the source located?

the answer is Bacca the old name of Macca, Saudi Arabia where Islam has been started approx… 1426 year ago… is the source of the information you are looking for!!!

To Answer your Questions.

1- In Muslim Religion, how is man Saved?

Answer, simply, THE LAST DAY. Muslims believe that in the end God will judge humans for their terrestrial actions. Those who have done well will enter Paradise where they will have everlasting bliss. Others will be doomed to hell.
The judgment will first separate between believers and disbelievers. Disbelievers will be thrown into the fire to dwell therein eternally. Their goodness is already rewarded in this world.
Believers will then be tried according to their actions. Those whose balance of good deeds weigh in their favour will be admitted into Paradise. Of the others God will forgive some and admit them to Paradise. Some he will purify after punishment. Eventually all believers will enter Paradise for their final abode.
The Qur’an is clear that none shall bear the sins of another. Each will carry his own burden. But God is merciful, and will forgive as He pleases.
How does one overcome the burden of sin? First, there is the sin that God will not forgive. That is the sin called shirk, the sin of associating another object of worship along with God. Second, there is the sin that God may forgive. That is everything else but shirk, the one unforgivable sin. Third, there is the sin that God will forgive. That is the sin which was followed by sincere repentance. One who repents after having sinned is like one who has not sinned. For example, entering Islam is a mark of sincere repentance from one’s past life. At that moment all of one’s previous sins are forgiven.
But how can one be perfect enough to please God? The answer is that we cannot be perfect, but God is easy to please. He only requires that we try our best. Ultimately it is not one’s deeds that gets one into Paradise but the grace of God.

I wish this is simply clear….

2- who do you include as prophet of the old testament?

Answer,

Muslims believe that every people received a messenger from God telling them to worship Allah alone and to shun false gods. Twenty-five such prophets are mentioned by name in the Qur’an. Most of them have been identified as prophets who are mentioned in the Bible. Among them are names like Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. Each prophet taught God’s will for the people at the time. The last of all the prophets is Muhammad, on whom be peace. His message will have universal relevance until the last day.
Muslims recognise that Jesus, on whom be peace, was born of a virgin, that he worked miracles, and that he remains alive. We believe that an attempt was made on his life, but God foiled the plans of the enemy and rescued Jesus while the enemy thought they had him. God raised Jesus to Himself, and will send him into the world once again before the Last Day.
Jesus was the Messiah, a prophet of God and his righteous servant. Many took Jesus for the Son of God, and even God himself. Some thought that Jesus’s mother also deserves worship. But the Qur’an restores the teachings of Jesus, who said: ““Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So worship him. This is a straight path”” (Qur’an 3:51).
Some saw his virginal conception as a proof of his divinity. But God replies that he shapes everyone in the wombs as he wants (3:7). Moreover, Jesus is like Adam (3:59). Neither had a father. Both were created by the All-Powerful God. When he intends create a thing he only says to it: ““Be!”” and it is (3:47).
On the Day of Judgement Jesus will deny those who worshipped him; he will clarify that he preached only that which God authorized him to preach: ““Worship Allah, my Lord and yours”” (4:159; 5:110).

3- The difference between inspiration and revelation. For the Moslems I have read, the Bible is inspired: even of Issa, who was a revelation, the writings were only inspired; while the Koran was a revelation, like the Messiah. (What IS the function of a Messiah in Islam? Perhaps you can tell me.) Christ was the seal of the Saints while Mohammed was seal of the Prophets for them.

Answer:
Muslims believe that God has revealed his saving message to all of humankind over time. Four such messages are known by the names Torah, Psalms, Gospel, and Qur’an.
The Qur’an is the last of the revealed books. As such, it occupies a unique position as the record of God’s final testament for humankind. God promised to preserve this book from error for all time. Indeed, no one disputes that the Qur’an as we now have it is essentially as it was fourteen hundred years ago.
Because of the Qur’an’s unique historical position, for the believer it acts as a control on the other scriptures; where any of the other scriptures differ from the Qur’an such differences could have arisen through human error in the process of transmission.
On the other hand, the previous scriptures were left to humans to guard as best they could. Over time mistakes arose, commentaries were mixed with the text, and even deliberate changes were made.
The Gospel was true as preached by Jesus, but over time some of his words went unrecorded, and eventually forgotten. Moreover, incorrect teachings came to be associated with his name. The Qur’an is now here to restore his true teachings.

[size=200]WoW[/size]

Thanks, WoW, for the respose. Here’s another topic I have questions on:

Isn’t the Koran a little ambiguous? It is poetry and much of it is written in poetic language. Who decides the meaning of the passages? Everyman? A hierarchy? Back when I was reading the book I found some rather creative ways of interpreting the text so that it did not conflict with Christianity.

Regards,
mrn

Hi mrn

Islam urges people to read and learn on every occasion. The verses of the Qur’an command, advise, warn, and encourage people to observe the phenomena of nature, the succession of day and night, the movements of stars, the sun, moon, and other heavenly bodies. Muslims are urged to look into everything in the universe, to travel, investigate, explore and understand them, the better to appreciate and be thankful for all the wonders and beauty of God’s creations. The first revelation to Muhammad showed how much Islam cares about knowledge.

“Read, in the name of your Lord, Who created…” [96:1]

Learning is obligatory for both men and women. Moreover, education is not restricted to religious issues; it includes all fields of knowledge, including biology, physics, and technology. Scholars have the highest status in Islam, second only to that accorded to prophets.

Almost from the very beginnings of the Islamic state Muslims began to study and to master a number of fields of so-called secular learning, beginning with linguistics and architecture, but very quickly extending to mathematics, physics, astronomy, geography, medicine, chemistry and philosophy. They translated and synthesized the known works of the ancient world, from Greece, Persia, India, even China. Before long they were criticizing, improving and expanding on that knowledge. Centuries before the European Renaissance there were Muslim ‘Rennaissance’ men, men who were simultaneously explorers, scientists, philosophers, physicians and poets, like Ibn Sina (Avicenna), Umar Khayyam, and others.
Qur’an can be well explained by Qur’an itself. Qur’an can be explained by Sunna also which means the teaching of prophet Muhammad and his scholars who came after him. Qur’an can be explained by scientists in all different field of knowledge.

Testimony of an Intellectual

Recently, the leading intellectual in the Catholic Church - a man by the name of Hans - studied the Qur’an and gave his opinion of what he had read. This man has been around for some time, and he is highly respected in the Catholic Church, and after careful scrutiny, he reported his findings, concluding, “God has spoken to man through the man, Muhammad.” Again this is a conclusion arrived at by a non-Muslim source - the very leading intellectual of the Catholic Church himself!
I do not think that the Pope agrees with him, but nonetheless, the opinion of such a noted, reputed public figure must carry some weight in defense of the Muslim position. He must be applauded for facing the reality that the Qur’an is not something which can be easily pushed aside and that, in fact God is the source of these words.
As is evident from the aforementioned information, all of the possibilities have been exhausted, so the chance of finding another possibility of dismissing the Qur’an is nonexistent.

[size=200]WoW[/size]

First, your last post does not adequately respond to the question I asked in my last post. I am disappointed. Who interprets the Koran? The mass of scholars? What authority do they have and what prevents them from erring? Can I interpret the Koran? Don’t tell me that there are no issues over differing interpretations!

As for this so-called “the leading Catholic intellectual” named Hans, is this Hans Kung? He’s a liberal who was popular in the 80’s when the Church was having discipline problems. I enjoyed his Does God Exist?, though. But for leading intellectuals in Catholicism you might try some more orthodox thinkers.

mrn

Hi
I think you have told me this:

I don’t like discussing these things on the board, because there are athiests who will only mock at this. Let’s not discuss too deeply in public here.

And i don’t want you to be disappointed.

do you want Details.

by the way, the prophet and Qur’an can’t do mistakes, and i’m agree with you people can…
I’m celebrating Eid al fiter these days which comes after one month of fasting Rammdan…

plz… if you don’t mind give me some time to finish Eid and then I’ll be back.

useful link, please give it a visit to see some interesting things.

islamtomorrow.com/articles/a … agains.htm

Plz notics this:
Don’t surf and read all websites with the word Islam
. Don’t accept information without checking the source
. Don’t accept answers without references (daleel, proofs)
. Don’t accept any answer just because someone says it is in the Quran or Hadeeth (if it is really there, then the person should give you the exact references)

[size=200]WoW[/size]

I read your IslamTomorrow page.

One aspect I thought I understood from my readings was the Muslims accepted all religions as roads to God. There is a Sufi saying of God saying of religion: “I have created you different; vie with one another in good works.” That’s the Islam I learned about and respected.

Now as to converting Catholic priests, we need all we can keep – “lay off”. It is my belief that Christianity is in some ways a higher religion then Islam. Ishmael, to whose decendants the Koran was revealed, was the child of a slave, while Judaism and later Christianity were descended from Isaac, the free child. So Islam seems to me to be the religion of servitude for those who will not accept God freely. Which is why Muslims are making inroads into religiously lax Europe today, but they don’t when Christianity is strong.

Also, isn’t there something seriously wrong with the Mohammedian world today? From hating Judiasm, to suicide bombers, to absolutist governments? What happened to Islamic humanism, as there can be Christian humanism?

Hope you have a blessed holiday.

mrn

it is nice to know all of that about Islam. Where can I find more on Islamic History?

The UCLA research library?

My apologies to the Muslim world. Tonight on a news program there was a discussion with a few Iraqis on the American war there. From the responses of the group, I now see there are Islamic humanists. (I should not have doubted.) I’ve also heard there is an underground literature movement in Iran. Further, I remember reading an item on how many books there are in Persian which are not translated into English compared to how many are translated from English – showing there is a live literary culture there – perhaps broader than ours.

So my apologies – there is humanism in Islamic countries. The question then might be why their states, and many persons, seem less “liberal” than in the West. (Not that we don’t have extremists ourselves.)

mrn

“From the responses of the group, I now see there are Islamic humanists. (I should not have doubted.)”

Yes and I feel for them, however, they are still members to a religion that commands brutality and murder. That as I have said before is like being a member of the Nazi Chess Culb. You might say, " I just enjoy chess and am not really a Nazi, so I hope that’s ok," but it’s not ok because you give your tacit approval to Nazism. That’s not kosher.

Those “humanists” are only half way there by my account, or half way back if you want to be cynical.

I think i just got banned from an Islam forum,
now i think islam is bullshit!

what was it called again?? “Harram”?
that shit were you cant even listen to music or talk to the oposite sex?
This 1 guy was talkin about a girl he met over the net,
and she was having problems with an abusive bf,
and then he asked if there were any “sisters” were she lived that would help her, you know, that whole asking-people-of-your-faith-to-actualy-help-someone shit that never realy works.
Modz closed his topic and just was cold as shit about it!

Now im REEEAL turned off to islam!
I think its just another one of those ancient, un-enlightened, repressive, un-natural, conformist, peace-of-shit religions that mind control people instead of teaching them somthing that is logical.

Someone tell me wuts up, cause it looked like crap to me!

(Is that like the Nazis who reportedly stole art? Yes, they were “cultured” weren’t they. I see your point.)

Do you mean the religion itself, or certain contemporary commentators by “brutality and murder”? I think it is only a very few Islamists who believe in suicide-bombing. If you mean harsh punishments in the sharia <sp?> law, it is from a brutal and barbaric time in history when tough laws made sense. They lack a Pope to tell them that capital punishment is no longer a viable alternative.

But some Muslims might say that it doesn’t matter what forms a religion is clothed in, it is all experience of and submission to God. And there is no longer a reason to kill over that. (Liberal states are no longer religion-based.) I’m sure that Islam too can be compatible with a liberal society.

I wrote the above and thought about it. Now i’m thinking how, on the other hand, the Islam I know is also about bringing the Kingdom of God on earth in a political form – with God’s laws. I haven’t read enough of the Koran to know if sharia law is actually codified in the that book or if like post-Vatican II changes, they were done later. I wonder if the more humanist of the Moslems will let other religions share in the peace of God on earth.

mrn

When the leader of the religion was a person that was a warrior he killed people. The texts are lined with thoughts about killing and stealing. In light of that I have no idea how one can remain a peace oriented member of the religion. That would mean that you are going against the prime example set by the founder.

It’s an example of denial and being part of the Nazi Chess Club.

Sufi’s face the same dualism Master Eckhart faced. On the one hand they have found sufficient spiritual enlightenment through Islam. On the other hand most muslims despise them, because they are not following Islam “correctly”.

The duality is that true spiritual enlightenment can only occur with free will. Religions like Islam, Catholicism, Most christianity, Mormonism, Buddhism (the zen variety is less so.), etc, all enslave the spirit and your will.

I saw a show about Sufi on TV a few weeks ago and thought that it looked like a decent version of the religion. However, a few years ago I read a small book by modern Sufis that detailed their love for humanity, however, they kept mentioning that the love was for believers. That creates the question of what is done to non-believers.

Anyway, I would like to read more about them.

I saw a show about Sufi on TV a few weeks ago and thought that it looked like a decent version of the religion. However, a few years ago I read a small book by modern Sufis that detailed their love for humanity, however, they kept mentioning that the love was for believers. That creates the question of what is done to non-believers.

Anyway, I would like to read more about them.

That’s exactly the dualism I’m talking about.

you should delete one of your double posts.

I double posted as a tribute to dualism.

WoW:

Moses worshipped “to be” not “Allah” which if anything would be a derivative of EL. (middle eastern high god of persia before mohammed came around)

YHVH = The one who makes things be.

Allah = High god.

Jesus’ god = “father in heaven”, “father of all”. He never taught to refer to god as Adonai, Allah, YHVH, El, Elohim, or any of the other names attributed to god in the area. He taught to call god father.

Abba. (while that rhymes with allah the two words are from two different languages and mean completely different things.)

Noah worshipped either Elohim or YHVH depending on which of the two flood stories you want to believe.