About Trinity

No matter how much people put it, of one substance, of three entities… no matter how much the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one… they are not one.

God is love. Love must have the object of love. (something to that extend. assuming narcissicism isn’t love).

God loves His Son and the Holy Spirit. God and His Son are not one. Therefore God can love His Son.

What’s the definition of monotheistic religion and the definition of polytheistic religion again?

If Christianity’s to be considered a monotheistic religion, is it because the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are of the same essence, in comparison to like let’s say, Hindu, who have many gods and many different powers and essences?

No matter how much I look at it. I have a problem thinking that Christianity is a religion that worships only one God.

Hey, I mean, I’m a Christian. I’m a believer and all. But sometimes, there are really things that are somewhat difficult for me to perceive. I’ve no intentions for debate, just discussion. I really want to know about this.

Thanks to everyone who can contribute.

This is part III of the dialouge between a (M) Muslim and (C) a Christian.

The Doctrine of the Trinity
M. Do you still believe in the Trinity?
C. It is said in the First Epistle of John 5:7-8: “For there are three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth: the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and these three agree in one.”
M. That is in The King James Version, authorized in 1611, and formed the strongest evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity. But now this part, “the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one,” has been expunged in The Revised Standard Version of 1952 and 1971 and in many other Bibles, as it was a gloss that had encroached on the Greek text.
I John 5:7-8 in The New American Standard Bible says: “And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit and the water, and the blood, and the three are in agreement.” Also, in The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, used by the Jehovah’s Witnesses, you will find: “For there are three witness bearers: the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are in agreement.” I can understand if you don’t know that this important part has been removed, but I wonder why many ministers and preachers are not aware of this.
The Trinity is not biblical. The word “Trinity” is not even in the Bible or Bible dictionaries. It was never taught or mentioned by Jesus. There is no basis or proof in the Bible for its acceptance.
C. But in Matthew 28: 19 we still find: “… baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” This part has not been removed yet. Is this not a proof of the Trinity?
M. No. If three persons are sitting or eating together, does it mean that they form one person? No. The formulation of the Trinity by Athanasius, an Egyptian deacon from Alexandria, was accepted by the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD‹more than three centuries after Jesus had left. No doubt Roman paganism had an influence on this doctrine of a triune god. The Sabbath was shifted to Sunday and December 25, the birthday of their sun god Mithra, was introduced as Jesus’ birthday, although the Bible clearly predicted and forbade the decoration of Christmas trees in Jeremiah 10:2-5: “Thus saith the Lord: 'Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold, they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.”
As Christianity deviated far from the original teachings of Jesus, Allah sent His last prophet, Muhammad, as a revivalist to undo changes made by man: the Roman Julian calendar was introduced as the Christian era; Pork was allowed; circumcision was abolished by Paul (Galatians 5:2: “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
The Qur’an warns in Surah 5:73: Surely they are disbelievers, those who said: ‘Allah is one of the three in a Trinity.’ But there is none who has the right to be worshipped but one God (Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them. Do you still believe in the Trinity, which was never taught by Jesus?
C. But God and Jesus are one (John 14: 11): “Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me.”
M. Read John 17:21.
C. “That they [the disciples] all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they may also be one in us …”
M. It is clear here that God and Jesus are one, and that the disciples are one in Jesus and God. If Jesus is God because he is in God, why are the disciples then not God, as they are like Jesus, who is in God? If God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost form one unit‹the Trinity‹with the disciples included they should form a fifteen unit God.
C. But Jesus is God according to John 14:9: “… he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.”
M. Look at what comes before and after: (John 14:8): “Philip saith unto him: 'Lord, show us the Father, and it aufficeth us.”’ (John 14:9): “Jesus saith unto him: 'Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hast seen the Father; and how sayest thou then: Shew us the Father?”’
Jesus asked Philip how to show God to the disciples, which is impossible. You should believe in God by admiring His creation: the sun, the moon, all creation, and Jesus, who was created by God. He said in John 4:24: “God is a Spirit” and in John 5:37: “Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.” How can you see a spirit? What they saw was Jesus, not God. Paul said in I Timothy 6: 16: “… whom no man hath seen, nor can see.” So what you see is not God. The Qur’an says in Surah 5:103: “Vision comprehends Him not, but He comprehends (all) vision. He is the Subtle, the Aware.”
C. It is hard to deny what has been taught to us since childhood.
M. Maybe the following questions will give you a better understanding of the Trinity: What is the Holy Spirit?
C. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Ghost and is also God. We are taught that the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God. We are not allowed to say Three Gods, but One God.
M. Read Matthew 1:18.
C. “Now the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.”
M. Compare this with Luke 1:26-27.
C. “And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.”
M. In Jesus’ miraculous birth Matthew mentioned the Holy Ghost and Luke mentioned the angel Gabriel. What is the Holy Ghost?
C. That being the case, the Holy Ghost is the angel Gabriel.
M. Do you still believe in the Trinity now?
C. Then God is God and the Holy Ghost or the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel, and Jesus is …
M. Let me help you: Jesus is a prophet, the son of Mary.
C. How can you solve what we call a divine mystery?
M. We use the Qur’an as the standard to correct man made changes in previously revealed scriptures. If you believe in One God, and Jesus as a prophet, why don’t you go one step further and accept Muhammad as the last messenger? Recite after me the shahadah or witness (testimony), first in English and then in Arabic.
C. I bear witness that there is no deity except Allah, Who has no partner, and Muhammad is His servant and messenger. Ashhadu an la illaha illa Allahu wahdahu la sharikah lahu wa ashhadu anna Muhammadan abdahu wa rasuluhu.
But what about my great grandparents? I would like to stay with them. They were all Christians.
M. Abraham left his parents and great grandparents when the truth‹ Islam‹was revealed to him. Everyone is responsible for himself. Maybe the truth hadn’t come to your ancestors as clearly as it has to you. The Qur’an says in Surah 17:15: Whoever goes right, then, he goes right only for his own soul’s benefit. And whoever goes astray, then he goes astray only to his own loss. No laden soul can bear another’s load. And We never punish until We have sent an apostle (to give warnings). The Truth has come to you and it is up to you.
C. Can I accept both Islam and Christianity?
M. There is no force in religion. You can do what you want. But if YOU combine both faiths, it means you haven’t surrendered to Allah. You are still a disbeliever, as He states in Surah 4:150-152: Verily those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and wish to make distinction between Allah and His messengers [by believing in Allah and disbelieving in His messengers] saying: ‘We believe in some and reject others,’ and wish to take a way in between [this and] that: They are disbelievers in truth. And We have prepared for disbelievers a humiliating torment. To those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them [messengers], We shall give them their rewards, and Allah is Forgiving, Most Merciful. You may agree with me if we discuss some other issues.
C. Should we recite a confession (shahadah) before we are fully committed?
M. As soon as you reach adulthood and you are mentally competent, you are then committed whether you recite the shahadah or not. Allah created this world for a purpose. He has supplied you with the organs to differentiate between right and wrong. He has sent many prophets as warners. We are created to worship Him and to compete with each other in good deeds in this world.
Surah 3:191: … Our Lord! You have not created [all] this without purpose, Glory to You! … "
Surah 90:8-10: Have We not made for him [mankind] a pair of eyes? And a tongue and a pair of lips? And shown him the two ways [good and evil]?
Surah 51:56: And I created not the jinns and mankind except they should worship Me [alone]. (Every deed for the pleasure of Allah is worship.)
Surah 18:7: Verily! We have made that which is on earth as an adornment for it [the earth] in order that We may test them [mankind] as to which of them is better in deeds.

[size=200]WoW[/size]

what the heck.

Trinity is never mentioned in the Bible, but so is child baptism.

However, the child baptism was practised by the Apostles and the early churches and were accepted and became a tradition. It remained so even until the Catholic churches in the 1400s.

There’s no proof for child baptism in the Bible, but there is nothing to disproof it. The same for Trinity. It’s inferences and terms that come out out of concepts and was accepted.

But back to my original question. So is Christianity monotheistic or polytheistic?

WOW YOUR ANNOYING!!!

WOW,

that looks amazingly similiar to the Mormon Brainwas… er missionary efforts.

I had a book that had remarkably similiar conversations, because the mormons don’t believe in trinity either. (neither do the JW’s btw, so if you tried that quote on me from their bible I’d just laugh.)

below are a few translations of the most “contraversial” piece of evidence in your mind, note all modern translations are going back to texts that predate the nicea council.

the precept of all is the same they establish the “godhood” of the “man-god” - yeshua.

(note: I think all religions are “maya”.)

What I find amusing is that the Islam religion believes in the Virgin birth which was a mistranslation from Hebrew to Greek to Aramiaic, then to English. The original Hebrew was “young maiden” (in Isaiah’s prophesy).

The other problem of course being that the jews originally believed in “elohim” and not “YHWH”. YHWH has many things in common with Allah for certain, like a bloodlust, and a hatred of other faiths. Elohim is a “plural” god(s) and is intertwined into the mythos of genesis with “YHWH” who is also called the YHWH el elohim meaning:

[size=117]Yahweh is god of gods. the high god. Higher than your god. etc.[/size]

Christianity is complex, like it’s judaistic roots. Judaism started out polytheistic than over (a period of time ?) it became monotheistic.

Christianity believes in one god, but they believe that one is three.

Basically the christian god has a multiple personality disorder.

I like to think that the Trinity is a metaphor. It helps to carry the idea.

Take, for example, the model of the atom. We know that the atom does not really look like the model does. We know that it does not even function as the model says it does. But the model helps us to carry the idea.

I strongly doubt that upon reaching heaven (or whatever form of spiritual enlightenment you prefer) that anyone will confront God and find him to exist in three persons as outlined by the doctrine of the Trinity. The Trinity is an attempt to understand God, so as to make it easier to worship Him. But anything we say of a God who is supposed to be beyond comprehension is effectively putting Him in a box.

Our words are crude, God is simply too big for us (by “us” I refer to those who subscribe to a God who is beyond comprehension, such as Christians, Muslims, etc.) and we will never be able to speak of him in any objective terms and truly express what he is like and how he exists.

Just my two cents.
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What makes you say that “Trinity” is purely an idea or a metaphor? That it’s not really one God, or three persons of the same substance. How can you say that it’s not?

The short answer, Christianity is monotheistic and God loves His creations (which aren’t Himself). Though He still does love Himself to the degree that people love themselves. And we do love ourselves. My argument for that: we don’t want to die because that will seperate us from what we define ourselves with.

Sorry if this is at all repetitive, I didn’t read the crazy long quotation from wow.

This may be an odd way to put it but I see an example as this: A man and a woman having a child, hence, they have become one to form another being that is of themselves. They are all separate but as one.

Trinity is such a bugger. haha. I feel sad because analogies are supposed to help us understand, instead, I think it’s screwing our brains for this kinda case. No analogy is close, no analogy is near, and if we’re being helped by analogies that can’t be right, we might be just getting ourselves into an area of our own understanding, which might just be wrong altogether.

Based on various discussions I previously had, the conclusion for Christianity to be monotheistic is this: three beings, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, is made of one essence: omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, etc. that are basically the “make-up” of a God. As in, if you’re God, then you must be eternal, you must be love, you must be omnipotent, etc.

So Christianity is monotheistic because it worships one God, and God is defined with its characteristics and attributes, which all shared by the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Bah. Monotheistic because in practice, it worships that the God(s) as only ONE, in the sense that they “cannot be” separated, or are in total unity. It’s totally different from the concept of worship of other polytheistic religions.

The more we try to make three into one, or the more we try to make one into three, i think the more we’re screwing it up. hmm.

There’s an interesting tidbit i just learnt. The way the Hebrews (or Greeks? sorry I can’t remember) says one can be two different ways: one for absolutely one, like one pencil. Or one for like, one bundle of pencils. Strange enough as it is, in Hebrew (damn I can’t remember really), when you say one God, it refers to the way you say one bundle of pencil.

You just answered your own question. I"m not denying that God could exist as a Trinity, but I’m saying that there is also the possibility that He exists in a form that we cannot comprehend, and therefore the Trinity is our human way of describing Him. It’s not that it’s sinful to view God as Triune, it’s the best we can do. It helps us carry the idea.

Personally, I’ve never been convinced having the right to call one’s self a “monotheist” was ever a big deal, since almost any religion I can think of could in some wise be construed as such.

• The Hindus believe ultimatly that the deity (Brahman) is one, and that all the various gods and lesser beings (including you and I) come from this. Depending on what form of Hindusim one looks at, there is also the teaching of Ishwara (sp?) - that there is a supreme personal manifestation of God, a “personal Lord”, which is either Vishnu or Shiva depending on which Hindus you ask. But even this supreme “personal Lord” doesn’t stop there from being a whole assortment of “lesser gods”.

• Ditto with what I can gather from the ancient Egyptian religion…Ra always seems to be a constant at the top, but there are still a whole bunch of other gods just slightly below him.

• And the same is true with what are often called the “Abrahamic religions”; Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. While they all claim there to be “one God”, this doesn’t stop them from believing there are all sorts of different types of angels/jinn (good and bad), exalted saints, etc., who frankly fill the same strata that the lesser gods of other “pagan” religions do. The same was true, btw. of the Canaanites who were the enemies of the ancient Israelites; while they had an assortment of lesser gods they worshipped, they gave a nod to the notion of there being a supreme “king” amongst the gods, who they called (along with the Israelites) “El”.

Thus, claiming this or that religion is “monotheistic” vs. being “polytheistic” is often just a bunch of hot air. The big emphasis of the so called “monotheistic” religions is not as much a theoretical difference as it is a practical one - who should be venerated/worshipped, to what degree(s), and how. For example if you carefully read the Old Testament/Tanakh, what YHWH is portrayed as wanting is that no one be worshipped before Him, and that the Israelites avoid the worship of “strange gods” (who the Jews believed to be either fantasies of their worshippers, or as seems to be more the case, not exactly what their worshippers thought them to be - in the Torah for example, it says that the heathen offer sacrifices to “demons”.) However in other places, it’s pretty clear that YHWH is portrayed as somehow surrounded by lesser, but still powerful beings.

On a theoretical level, what distinguishes the various major religions, is what they classify as being eternal and divine. In pantheistic religions (like Hinduism), ultimatly everything is part of the divinity. In Islam, only a single, manifest individual (Allah) is understood to be such. In Christianity, three hypostases (often translated “persons”, but this is something of a simplification) are said to be such. Normative Judaism, certainly as it currently exists, would agree with Islam (though it gets murkier if you get into things like Kabbalah/esoteric Judaism, which is arguably pantheistic and certainly emminationist.)

Even this is somewhat of a generalisation. Even at the time of Jesus it is not entirely clear as to whether most Jews would have wholly believed in the OT writings, i.e. whether even then it could be regarded as entirely monotheistic.

Jon F

She was pretty hot in the Matrix, but I don’t see what this has to do with religion.