The Problem with Christianity: Hell

well certainly, he allows hell, but i see it as less of a vengeful god casting away the sinners to burn for eternity for disobeying him, and more as god trying to save as many as he can from such a fate. i wish i could find in my bible here the story of where satan was cast from heaven so i could see if it said whether hell was god’s creation for satan or satan’s creation against god. (anyone know where this story is? i know i’ve read it before)

ANYWAYS, back to the topic at hand: god does certainly permit these things for the time being, but i think it’s more permitted as trials to help stregnthen our faith in him. and the day is coming when he’ll put a stop to it for good.

That certainly sounds better, but how many can He save? Why not everyone? The idea that God sends or allows people to go to Hell has difficitulties, but the idea that He’s somehow unable to keep people from ending up there has difficulties too.

aporia

Sure, but letting you get e-bola would be rather unfatherly too, right? That’s what I’m trying to say- God is loving, and God is fatherly, but even without talking about the metaphysical, we see examples in life of things that would seem to defy that. In other words, if a theist says that a loving God would never allow such a thing as hell, I think they’ve made the problem of evil harder for themselves.

what’s the word for someone who believes that god just started everything and sits back to watch it happen? i can’t think of it. but i think i’m that …to some extent. he certainly steps in a lot but not to completely wipe something out like cancer or something.

as for “why can’t he save everyone,” it’s because we have free will. we can choose to disobey him if we want, but we know the consequences for doing that.

you meant deism? the rough illustration is something like a watch-maker. u create the watch, then u let it go by itself, never again to interfere with what u’ve invented.

that’s it. deist. but like i said, to some extent. i dont think he drops down to interfere with big events but he can be a real help in the little things.

or for that matter, the little things that are part of the big things, but are overlooked.

my belief is, on the other hand, no big events are without divine intervention.

the popular question is why God lets ugly things happen without the concept of us living in a sinful world (so it’s not surprising that things got ugly), that if God lends a hand, that is purely out of grace and His own sovereignty. that’s my belief at least.

This mindset is what turned me off Christianity, and most religions. I just walked away and started investigating, and found most promoting faith were in it for power, presige, and wealth. My concerns are with the here and now and what to do regarding the mess. If there is a God, God is probably laughing at us.

The option is to live, and try to enjoy life regardless of the pitfalls. If you enjoyed Disneyland daily, you would soon be sick of it. There is much bad in the world, but there is much good, try to strive to be part of the good in the world, and do not give up. Eventually, there usually is a rainbow.

what nobody likes (including me but i just don’t think about it), is that according to christianity, if you’re concerned with getting a third option that best suits you when you die, then you’re being selfish. which you are, but it seems to be justified selfishness. it’s like that mindset of “setting some time out for yourself,” and how that isn’t selfish.

aspacia, i totally understand about people who promote faith as a means of raising themselves above other people, and there are some like that. the reason i’ve done so much philosophizing about why certain things are certain ways in christianity is because i don’t want to be one of those people. i try to be in it to help other people, not myself.

I have to agree with all of you here. Granted, at its depths I believe the calling of Christianity is extraordinary but I’m also practical enough to appreciate that it is beyond us and we’ll be lucky as sinners to just be "in the body"so to speak. Like you, I am also aware of all the corruption within religion.

Nothing wrong with just striving to be good people. I like the way it is described in Ecclesiastes 12:

Yes we can get caught up with details and debate and these experts and their books seem to be behind every corner. I guess it is our karmic obligation to retain our common sense in spite of them. :slight_smile:

So I see the conclusion of the matter as fearing the loss of our connection to something higher than ourselves and our attitudes and motivations should be in accordance with our continual awareness and respect for this connection as with the spirit of the commandments.

I guess if we are really like this, what in God or in man that has not become perverse could object?

Bravo, a good person, and right there are many who are good, but many who are in it for their own ego, money, etc. Keep the faith, and doing good works if this makes you and others happy.

I am just very cynical as the “faith” has often been used as a tool to control me. No, not my ex, ding dong, my mother.

Smiles,

aspacia

Smiles, my students were presenting their etymology research for Fahrenheit 451’s vocabulary and significant terms. Today, two students, one a son of a preacher presented on Ecclesiastics, Darwin, etc. Most of the students, Catholic, Hispanics did not know this was part of the Bible. LOL. They learned something, and the student was very informative regarding his interpretation. Great fun.

I know someone is going to call me blashphemous, or whatever. But I believe we are all God. Or we are all the eternal energy of the universe. I mean, even if you say we are God’s creations, then how could we ever be seperate or deviate from it? That just doesn’t make sense.

I think we’re all God playing a game called life, that we’ve played over and over and over throughout all eternity (eternal means beyond time, ie. there is only a present, only an eternal now). But in order to entertain ourselves, we create this world, this world of matter, the world where we can conceptualize and manifest things into physical existence. And when we die, we revert back to this conciousness. Good and Evil are not at odds with each other, they support each other. It’s the coincidence of opposites, and if you truly understand that black relies on white, and they are really two sides of the same coin, you can bring this understanding of the paradox to explain everything in life. Ie. you cannot experience life without death, ie. you cannot know beauty unless you know the ugly, etc etc. all down the line. Our world is made up of little tiny yes’s and little tiny no’s, and these are ONE. We are all one, with the illusion that we are seperate, and when we die, we revert back to the cosmic conciousness, and we laugh, we lost everything, and we lost nothing, we cry and we rejoice, we hate it and we love it. These things are not at odds with each other, they are the very essence of being itself.

Anyway, that’s my take.

perhaps we slightly intersect with god, in which case we could be connected to him at that intersection but we are not god. (i don’t necessarily believe this, i’m just throwing it out)

Hum, if you consider that in Christianity and Judaism we are made in God’s image and in Christianity, God gave us the only son, this doesn’t sound too far fetched, except we are not ominpotent omnipresent.

Blaspehmy, no, you are thinking, very good.

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Ah, but the now continually changes, is dynamic continually in flux, there is no real eternal now for humans, at least IMO, but we all have our opinions.

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Sorry, I do not understand. Please clarify.

Yes, agree with this.

Hum, interesting, thanks for your insight.

Smiles,

aspacia

Sorry, I know I often make the mistake of being radically unclear in my philosophical explanations, forgetting what makes sense to me is not going to make sense to anyone else, unless it is clearly defined. I know I’m not the only one here who does this. =D

Anyway, in response to being made in God’s image, I still don’t see how that makes us seperate from God. I still don’t see how that we can be individuals, seperate from God and at the same time be connected to him. This is to say, that these spirit beings, or souls are created if you will, and they are eternally those souls, that they never revert back to unity. So, the problem I have is not with the seperateness, but the eternal seperation (not disconnection from God) of a seperate soul. Does this make sense? I think that things can become seperate in a sense, but they always revert back to unity. In fact, the seperation is a mere perception, but the unity is always underlying it.

That is why I can’t see how God can create anything and not see it as an illusion. Am I the only one this makes sense to? It’s not an illusion in the sense that it isn’t “real”, but it’s an illusion in the sense that it isn’t the “ultimate realness”. Hrmm, that sounds confusing, but I would liken it to us and atoms. It seems to us that we are all different, that all things and events have different courses, objectives and etc., which is true in a certain sense. But underlying the so called “make-up” of the physical matter, you find everything is made up of atoms. These atoms are simply aranged in a vastly amazing and wondorous pattern, but at the same time they are still atoms. The arrangement causes the difference, but not the actual makeup.

Now how these atoms are arranged is a totally different story, because it’s obviously not a result of blind force. But I don’t believe it’s an act of God, simply commanding this stupid, unintelligent “stuff”, matter, or atoms (the name is irrelevant really) into form. Because you see, when you have this analogy that there is a supreme ruler, commanding things into being, there is always the question of “what is the method of creation”, how did God become God, and it’s interminable. I am more likened to the Chinese definition of Nature, or Ultimate Reality (call it God if you want), that nature is so of itself. This could be likened to the fact that while you may have control over certain motor functions, analogous thought, etc. you are not organizing the operation of your nervous system, or the functioning of your brain, etc. It is self-regulating. In other words, it requires no operator. I dunno if this makes any sense to anyone else, but it’s the only thing that makes sense to me. Let me know if I should clarify anything…

Oh and I never said that life was everlasting, or that a form holds together forever. I said that Being is eternal. And I think as we all know, all things that are made (all forms) come apart eventually. I was simply stating that past is a memory, and future is an expectation. There’s no way where you can say past or future exists, simply because in the past, it was Now, and the future will be a Now. Time is always Now.

Makes perfect sense. We all make the mistake of expressing something that makes perfect sense to ourselves, and when the other doesn’t understand we feel a little isolated, a little lonely in our understanding. But we have patience because there is always more. Our picture is not yet complete. Always another angle. A whole picture. When we are able to express Truth from any angle, from the angle that the other will understand, it doesn’t matter, that is when we truly ‘get it’.

When we truly get it, anyone will be able to understand what we are saying, and we will be able to describe that Truth in a myriad of ways. We ourselves will see it in every place we look, inside or outside, in the smallest flower or in the eyes of another, we will see it in the billboard advertisement, in poetry, in another’s writing, in the moon and the sun…there is no place that we will not see it. There is no one way to describe the Way.

A

Im bakeing a theory that maybe God is not an insolant ideot…
:smiley: :smiley: :smiley:
nice choice of words huh?

Heheh, but seriously now:
Is there a verse that sais you will have eternal pain in gehena? or is it about being gone forever? does it say heaven is eternal pleasure? or a spirit realm for angels?
Dont listen to a catholic preists half quotes, do your own research and teach yourslef! i know of one guy who does tons of bible study on his own and is not a member of any religion. I see him as very virtuios and sain to, unlike overly religious people id seen before him.

I theorize that when God eledgedly created us,
pain was meant to help us know what was bad,
because it tells us if we are being harmed.
Then we have compassion, so we dont want others to have pain either.

With this in mind, hell would be futile.
God would be a vile mundane ideot to send people to hell and sit there watching them have eternal pain, it is useless and stupid! But lets guess that God is so smart that he can make dna, and hes not a moron so he doesnt like to torture…

Let me tell you somthing,
charity and compassion is not part of evolution or natural selection.
justice and equality are human values.
Nature and the food chain doesnt realy have these,
but humans do.

If God is humain and wise, then he knows that for peace and harmony to exist there must be justice and mercy and charity, but if God is animalistic then he does not want justice or mercy or compassion, he wants the preditors and the paracites to win.
Bible morals paint a picture of decency (usualy) and you all know how humble and kind Jesus was.
So, id guess that once things get unfair, its nolonger rightious or holy…

Either God is rightious and holy, or he is not.
I cant prove much of anything, but there is no scientific proof of hell and i personaly have not yet had reason to believe in it or fear it.

All this nonsense about heaven and hell is absolute rubbish. Assuming that we survive the death of the body, which I do happen to believe, the same thing will happen to all of us. Since we will, presumably, then find out a lot more, if not all, of the truth it matters not one iota what we have believed. It just might matter what we have done!!

HEY, YOU!
I love you for saying that! if i was there i try to be your freind!
“Avocet” is a good person i bet!

For me i sais: religion and beliefe and opinion are all besides the point. The only thing that realy matters is life itself, if your not alive then you cant think or feal, so use all of your thoughts and fealings to protect and preserve life!
Think about it, if there was no humans alive then there would be no religions around either.