Freewill and sin.

I am (self)-studying the theology of Luther and the idea of predestination found in him and Calvin. I began by reading Luther’s translation of Theologia Germanica, a book that colored his later views. I loved the book but there are certain contradictions which I wanted to discuss with you. I’ll losely quote the Bible, not out of disrespect but because I believe that you will know right away the passages I refer to.

The question is Freewill.
The writer of TG is adamant that our creaturely powers are nothing, cannot help us to achieve a union with God. This follows Christian dogma of salvation by Faith. It agrees also with the writings of Paul especially Romans. In fact, I believe that the negation of freewill by Luther and Others was a great justice to the spirit of St Paul. The doctrine of predestination is plainly explained in the comparasion made with the story of Jacob and Esau. Don’t get me wrong, I believe that Paul is off the mark, but his views are considered those of God, so let’s go on.
His point is that no works can lead to a right relation with God. No righteousness can come from cricumscision, for example. As TG puts it, deeds are not contrary to God and do please him, but deeds cannot lead to salvation.
In Paul’s view the twins fate was separated before they had done any good or wrong in the world. It was not because Esau had done bad things that God had elected him to serve his brother and it was not because Jacob had been righteous that he was made lord over his brother. This was simply the sovereign election of the Lord. Again, I believe that Paul is wrong about this, however no christian is prepared to think this through.
Paul’s audience did though. They ask, if that is the case, why does God still blame them, judges them? Who can after all resist God’s will? In other words where is the sin? What is sin? How can one be responsible when one is incapacitated?
Define sin as you want but my own is that sin is rebellion, that sin is disobedience. Martin Buber even defines and separates the “wicked” from the “sinners”, and though I am aware of the incompleatness of my definition, it is here made because I believe that any definition of sin will include the aspect of rebellion and disobedience.
Now, working from that definition the problem is clear. Disobedience makes sense only where obedience is possible; where the fact that one is a sinner is due to the person choosing unwisely. Latter in Romans, but not that much latter, Paul quotes God again as upset for having waited a day for this stiff necked people. Now why is God waiting?
If He has made His election in the womb for whom is he waiting: Jacob or Esau? If the first, then how can Jacob resist His Grace/Love? If the second then why is God waiting on one he hated before he was even born?
That is the problem.
I believe that earlier hebrew writers took for granted the ability of man to choose right or wrong and that his obedience could make a difference in this life. After the exile and later during Rome’s occupation, such optimism was abandoned and a darker view came about in which the actions of man did not and could not compel the Deity. The question was-- Why do bad things happen to Israel, God’s chosen people, His servant? Because it must happen in God’s mysterious plans which no one may define. Who knows His ways?! Moses did, for example, but that was the days of positive conquest not of negative defeat and these defeats failed to re-inforce the assumptions of the ancients about the nature of God. The tensions grew until finally it split the old religion into camps.
It could be investigated, as Mark Smith did, about whether such unity ever existed. Perhaps there never was but there was no christianity either. Regardless of the diversity of cults within it, judaism or the religion of the hebrews remained a single religion with a core literature. But we move away from the point.
Sin makes sense only where freedom of the will is taken for granted. Moral liability is present where an action done was unnecessary. When an action was undetermined. If we take Pauls hard determinism at the womb, we may not offend the will or omnipotence of God but we render sin meaningless, God callous and His justice suspect.
In our justice system a person may be found innocent due to insanity. Insanity makes impossible free action. The person is morally unaccountable. How then can you have Judgement Day? The only one moraly liable would be God!
If we are indeed little better than pottery then we must look again at the worth of man. Man does not merit Heaven, but neither Hell. He enter one or the other based on the election made by God before the moral action of the creature.
So here we are, and my post is comming to an end which I hope becomes the beginning to a discussion of what can be defined as sin, if such concept can even exist. To eliminate these inconsistencies, I have looked at the history of a people and not at the dogma of a faith. But whatever your method does, it seems impossible to me that the inconsistency can be repelled without renouncing certain attributes or certain revelations.

sorry i really can’t read all of that but if i guess correctly, and you’re talking about free will and sin and how the two relate, (man i sure hope i’m right about all those assumptions), then i would suggest looking at raymond m. smullyan’s “Is God a Taoist?” it’s a conversation between a human and god about free will, morality, sin, and lots of other things.

here’s a link to it:

Is God a Taoist?

I loved the site you gave me. It reminded me of this Idealistic fellow. Check out his second book at this site and tell me if you think it relates.

class.uidaho.edu/mickelsen/T … %20Man.htm

Hi Omar

As I understand it we lack both the consciousness and will to avoid sin. This is why we need help from above. The natural question here is why bother. First consider the words of Father Sylvan:

Sin from this perspective is a mindset rather than an action. From this perspective, will is not the issue But it is something that we continually sink into and consider sin in relation to what we do rather than the awareness of what we are in relation to potential through re-birth.

Simone Weil has a wonderful way of describing sin:

The void is the space for attention to unite the higher and lower within us through the Holy Spirit. We lack the attention to keep it open so imagination fills it leading to sin which denies human evolutionary potential mentioned by Father Sylvan. Some call it “heaven.”

As I understand it we lack both the consciousness and will to avoid sin.
O- If God told you:“Thou shalt not kill”; killing here is safely believed to be a sin, would you say that you lack the consciousness and will to not kill? To simply obey God’s command? And if God knows your incapacity why would he even bother to issue the command to something not yet a man, little better than a beast who lacks the will to obey? Would you blame man also because he lacks wings that he should fly and then say:“Fly”?

Sin from this perspective is a mindset rather than an action. From this perspective, will is not the issue But it is something that we continually sink into and consider sin in relation to what we do rather than the awareness of what we are in relation to potential through re-birth.
O- Explain in plain language as if to a five yesr old.

Simone Weil has a wonderful way of describing sin:

Omar

You could kill a cow for food but could you murder one to get even for it giving you a dirty look? The psychological motive is the real sin.

Is the sin sexual attraction or lust? How many even know the difference?

I don’t know how to make it any clearer. What makes normal sexual attraction stimulate negative emotions and making its energies a slave to psychological lust? It is enough now just to realize that it happens within us.

This is what I mean by sin being a mindset. Sex is sex. It is either pleasant or neutral but it cannot be negative. The negativity is associated with egotistic emotional stimulation that drains the body of it. The sin of it is that it denies it the beneficial effect it has for our being.

First of all, it is not a matter of blame; it is a matter of lawful reactions similar to what is known as karma in the East.

Christ’s mission was to allow for Man to experience the Spirit and get out of the impossible situation of being dominated by sin at the expense of man’s conscious evolution or re-birth.

This is not blame but simply the karmic effects of “law” being nullified through objective “seeing” giving Man the possibility of outgrowing the human condition of being tied to abnormal fear and imagination

You could kill a cow for food but could you murder one to get even for it giving you a dirty look? The psychological motive is the real sin.
O- Killing a cow for for is a necessary act. Eating it’s flesh with cow milk is not. In my concept of sin, acts that are necessitated, such as killing for food, are not sin and are not rebellious. But when God says, Thou shalt not kill, such commandment is made in relation to an unnecessary kill, not to punish crime, not to defend the city, but a simple murder.

Quote:
Matthew 5: 27-28
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.>>>

Is the sin sexual attraction or lust? How many even know the difference?
O- I cannot say how many know the difference, but the importance of Jesus message for me here is that an outward act, an insincere act, like a politician’s handshake is not comparable to a total act of obedience, where the inner act mirrors the outward act, so that your “yes” will be yes and your “no” will be a no.
A man that is married and goes to “gentleman’s clubs” might as well be called an adulterer even if he never touches even one “G” string. Ask any married woman who is devoted to her husband.

Quote:
Would you blame man also because he lacks wings that he should fly and then say:“Fly”?

First of all, it is not a matter of blame
O- I disagree. According to Church dogma-- in fact in the main monotheist religions-- there shall be a day of judgement. A trial, just as I expect one would exist at Judgement Day, is a system of assigning blame.

it is a matter of lawful reactions similar to what is known as karma in the East.
O- Karma makes perfect sense within the Hindu system and is irrational in a Biblical sense. Hinduism offers no reward or punishment as it’s final goal, but an end to re incarnations and a perfect state of non-being in Nirvana. Am I incorrect here? Thus, this comparasion is ineffective, or at least moves away from my argument which has to do with Paul and not with Karma.

Christ’s mission was to allow for Man to experience the Spirit and get out of the impossible situation of being dominated by sin at the expense of man’s conscious evolution or re-birth.
O- Not according to Paul. In his view, ands let’s remember that his view in Romans is part of the Word of God, so that when we say “his view”, a christian would say “God’s view”, Jesus is the lamb, the offering of offerings so that throught him and his cleansing blood we attain what was lost in Adam. Jesus is the intermediary, but the central act in his life, to Paul, is not his first 32 years of life. To him, as it was also for Mel Gibson, it is his death that define the faith, and in the early church, men like Mel were the rule. Yours is a gnostic view.

This is not blame but simply the karmic effects of “law” being nullified through objective “seeing” giving Man the possibility of outgrowing the human condition of being tied to abnormal fear and imagination.
O- Your view again does not answer Paul’s letter. What is man’s claim to growth? Why do the wicked prosper while the righteous suffer? Does God hardens the hearts of the sinners and gives grace to those He elects, like a potter shapes some pots for destruction and others for actual use?

Omar

I’m not your usual Christian. In fact I’ve come to believe that Christianity does not exist in public but has become man made Christianity or “Christendom.” I don’t believe in a personal God. We are too distant. However I do believe in help from a quality of consciousness in between man and God known as the “Son” in the image of God.

Sin only exists in relation to our aim. If the aim is towards awakening, a strip club can either be a help or hindrance. If a man professing Christian interests in awakening goes to a strip club for the purpose of lusting and egotistic sexual expression, this is contradictory since the creative energies needed for this aim are drained from him through feeding of negative emotion.

However, for someone a bit more advanced, sitting in a strip club for the purpose of self knowledge as it relates to a sexually charged atmosphere is a useful exercise.

So for me it is not the outer action that is important but our inner presence. Moral people could be offended by this attitude but for me it is just common sense because the quality of our life is really our being in which its outer expression is put into perspective.

As I understand it this is just evolution. The cycle when help from above appears for the purpose of conscious evolution lasts just so long and then it is the end of an eon. After a while the cycle repeats. For that which can continue or at least be free enough to continue, then evolution is still a possibility. Nothing stays the same. Everything in the universe is either serving the process of evolution or involution. If an individual manifestation of human being does not evolve, then it involves where the Spirit can no longer help. This is not moral judgment but the objective value of facets of human being in terms of evolution.

Esoteric Christianity is not Gnosticism but that is another issue. Jesus as the lamb of God and the nature and quality of his sacrifice refers to God’s will manifesting on earth as the laws of nature which have adapted to hold man attached to it through imagination and meaningless fear.

Growth of being is re-birth. It is the central purpose of Christianity that Jesus openly referred to. Life on earth is meaningless so why is it surprising that all sorts of apparent absurdities continually occur? As I understand it, the essence of man exists within this absurdity as a seed or potential of something more worthy of the name “Man.” Seeds grow or die determined by various conditions even described in the Bible:

I know it appears cold but the bottom line IMO is that we are mistaken to believe that the earth is here to serve the purpose of man. Rather Man exists in the physical body on earth primarily to serve the purposes of the earth. It is due to conscious help from above that we can realize it and outgrow it.

Idealism is the anti-christ!!! Practical law is the only sain truth!
HUZZAH! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

omg, the first reply was a joke sort of,
but now i did what i was ashamed of and didnt want to do!
I uploaded a quote from one of my most recent texts!!!
:frowning: :frowning: :frowning: :frowning: :frowning: :frowning:
Ok, what i am inspired to write after i pray^
please dont take offence at this!
Please dont hate me, please,
and if you do hate me and judge me,
i will not hate you and judge you in return.

now ill get the details about the quoted ‘inspired’ writing.
(forgive typos, im dyslexic!!!)

Origonaly in .rtf format,
please forgive my error, i did not want to make a mastake!

“sin” here was refered to in the sence of burdon,
and it is highlighted that God wanted us to stop hurting ourselves and others.
It is practical instead of ideal, forgiving instead of judgemental.
Humans need freinds, and having human freinds is good for you,
but the theory here is that God’s promised rulership in the future,
though the majority of modern humans dont “want” it,
will be a liboration from “sin” which was actauly a lack of guidance and understanding, which would mean myracles and mass education, EXACTLY like Jesus’s few years on earth, but global!