It seems to me that the majority of Christians in the world today are obsessed with numbers. If not numbers, then concrete evidence of a sinner’s salvation. It seems more valuable to get someone to “pray the prayer” and convert them than it is to teach them the Truth.
You can’t please a group of Christians by standing up in front of them and saying that you spoke with a non-believer and asked some hard questions, and had a good conversation, and are very excited to see them grow. You have to say that you converted them, or they are nearer to conversion than they were before.
Are there reasons (historical, social, etc.) for this behavior? Are there solutions?
It seems to me that Jesus called us to make disciples (someone who follows and learns) and not just millions of empty converts.
Well, you could please me that way. But yeah, isn’t it that way with any strongly held belief structure? I’m sure an organized group of atheists would like to hear about one of their members asking ‘hard questions’ to a believer, but would be much more enthusiastic to hear that the believer was actually converted to atheism.
Solution? Why is it a problem?
If all we were after is disciples, then millions of people would be left out in the cold, because they have not the capacity or interest to sit and learn. Go talk about philosophy, real philosophy, to the masses, then come back here and tell me how many of them give a crap. What you are calling an 'empty convert' is all we can hope for from the great majority of people, I should think.
That’s my point, I’m questioning whether any organized belief system should be pleased by simple conversion.
Because it makes for a generally “lukewarm” group of people.
The point I’m trying to make is that conversion is not enough. If someone can just convert to Christianity and then go on with their lives as they had before, then there is no value in converting them.
Perhaps what I’m trying to say is that there are no true converts, but that the Church pretends that there are. Or perhaps you must be a disciple before you can be a convert.
All that said, you seem to have quite an unappreciative attitude towards “the masses.”
Not at all, if anything, I have an unappreciative view of intellectualism. I've said before, though not to you, that religion is a lot driving a car- not everybody who chooses to drive is going to bother learning how to repair/build/race a car. And that's fine- the world is a big place, with lots of different roles to play. Likewise I think it's just fine for people to be [i]religious[/i] without being [i]religious scholars[/i]. In my last post, I was just pointing out that it's inevitable that most people will go this way, not that I think there's anything wrong with it.
As far as having a lukewarn crowd, yes, that is a problem. But I think that may be unavoidable if you believe that your system, your religion, is [i]for everyone[/i]. A scientist is free to come up with theories that only people with PhD's can comprehend, and illiterate hangers-on would really only be a pain in ass. But with Christianity, the understanding is that Jesus Christ is [i]the way[/i] among a host of harmful alternatives. So the preacher has no choice but to bring it to everybody, even people who don't have the time/ability/desire to understand all it's intricacies.
The only solution I could see to the problem that you're talking about would be to say something like "Unless you're[i] this [/i]smart, or [i]this[/i] charismatic, or [i]this [/i]devoted, you can't be a Christian," and that's clearly not what the message is about.
Very good observations. Obviously Christ’s message is not meant only for the educated, this is evidenced simply in his choice of disciples. Fishermen were not the brightest beings in Palestine during the time of Jesus, nor would I consider Matthew the tax collector to be a particularly wise man (though I could be wrong there). Luke shows promise, being a doctor.
The only solution I could see to the problem that you’re talking about would be to say something like “Unless you’re this smart, or this charismatic, or this devoted, you can’t be a Christian,” and that’s clearly not what the message is about.
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I’m not really trying to say that one needs to be educated or (ahem) “intellectual” to understand and carry out Jesus’s message. Jesus called the losers, the nobodies to follow Him, meaning that even the stupidest, most ignorant person in the world could become a disciple of Christ.
But therein lies the problem that you stated: if the message applies to all, then there will be people not as qualified “hanging on” and becoming “pains in the ass.” People would just jump on the bandwagon, even though they don’t understand.
What I’m trying to say has nothing to do with intellect, it has to do with motivation. That’s where the universality of the message of Jesus lies. Jesus even implies that it’s more difficult for a rich man (or educated perhaps) to enter the kingdom of heaven than for a beggar who hears the word of Truth.
We’re really arguing much the same point here, just from different angles.
My (refined) question is: Should the Church be less concerned with hearing the Truth and “accepting” it (conversion) and more concerned with learning how to live the Truth (discipleship)?
Only Luke was probably a follower of Paul, rather than Jesus. Besides, Paul seems to make a point about the Churches not being made up of the wise and learned. I don’t agree with you about fishermen not being bright, even if they are not widely educated there is no reason why they couldn’t have a clear, quick intellect and be “streetwise†as we say today. But I think we are missing the point, although having circled it for some time. I think it is quite obvious that the message of Christ, even if it was improbable to the Pharisees and Scribes, was of a more practical nature.
He went about telling them that the time of which prophecy spoke was at hand, was unfolding in front of them and the realm of God was in their midst. His miracles, even if they were explainable, were just signs that the time had come to trust. “Believe God and believe me…†he is reported to have said. It was this message that was the good news, and this message went on being the good news after pentecost, when Peter said that prophecy was happening, when Paul said that “…now is the time of Grace…†By all appearances, it became apparent to many that this was true, because the communities that were set up were welcomed and accepted.
What they had to understand was that God was in their midst and empowering all who put their faith in that fact to live a different life. It wasn’t a case of a strict or severe piety, but a question of love. In this family of God, anyone had a place and everyone had a purpose – even those who were crippled or ill, because they could experience the mercy of God manifested in the care of fellow believers.
The rich man has too much to lose, that is why it is hard for him to enter this new kingdom. He is like a rich man wanting to enter the city by the small door at night – he wants to bring his trappings (camel) with him, but they won’t fit through the door. The beggar enters as he is.
The church should be more concerned with living the message that God is in us and doing the work of redemption. We should be more concerned with being a limb on the “Body of Christ†doing what we can to complete Christ’s mission to save the world from the hell that ‘Mammon’ is making it into.
As I read the Convert were given the FREE gift of holy spirit, then they went on their way with their bibles. Set FREE by truth and the holy spirit. Not made slaves of people who consider themselves superior to in learning to them. Did they spend the the rest of their lives going to see Paul give a sermon every week? I don’t think so. I think the Holy Spirit took it from there and God became their teacher. Of course, when millions are following a lie, living it, preaching it, making good money from it, and loving it, there is not much of an incentive to actually search for the truth. Why? To expose your profitable, powerful lie? I am confused I guess. It happens when you start looking at peoples actions instead of relying on what they are saying. Also, they seem to be following satan as they are trying to convince the people they feel are inferior to them to follow and worship them instead of worshiping and following God. Something I would not DARE do if I truly “believed” in God.
But if I thought it was all a hoax? Who is going to stop me? I could use that book to influence millions into doing what I say is right and wrong. I could be “god” to all those inferior people. And I would get away with it too IF there WAS no God. J.I.
