why do people believe in a god?

You’ll be punished in that you’ve learned nothing of the value of human life. Which means you’ll come back here to try again. If anything you’ll be put in a life where seeing the value of life will hit home more, you’d probably lose a child, to your own hand by accident.

edit:

in a way you could say that’s “like karma”, but my “karma” is driven by a creator of the universe, and doesn’t put people into class situations as reward, punishment for their life here on earth.

scythekain wrote:

We dont endure karma for reward/punishment, but rather for knowledge. We must learn from our actions. Your view of karma and mine arent that different. Did you get a chance to read any of that stuff?

And who would see to it that I lost that child , since if it was up to me , naturally I would rather not pay up for having previously killed one of your family ?

Maybe I,ll get away with it , which means no retribution for your family .

You mean a supreme being that created the world , which sustains all natural and karmic laws ?

Again, I’ll go back to the original question.

“Why do people believe in a god?”

Isn’t it difficult to properly answer this query? After all we can sit here and poke holes in God all day, but to no avail. For every person shouting “God does not exist” there is another replying “Prove it!”, and so forth. In any case, I can offer a few of my reasonings that come to mind.

Man creates God to justify his existence. This is one of the most basic reasons. Man cannot imagine himself on Earth without God to put him there. Furthermore, all of our actions are accounted for systematically. Whatever is good and great is of God, whatever is not is of man. We also deny “eternity” through our creation of God.

Man creates God to forgive. Often times, the religious see humanity as something that must be cleansed of itself. We are seen as “weak” or “flawed”. It is the actions that are birthed from this terrible humanity that require forgiveness. In other words, our sin. Whoever thinks this way is simply so disgusted with their “sinning” that they need something to forgive them.

Man creates God to answer. It’s natural for humans to try to come up with answers to the truths of life, such as a death and creation. With God, you have a hollow idea disguised as an answer. In other words, God inspires you to keep yourself busy and he’ll just tell you the answers when you die. This belief is a means to an end; a reason to avoid any further deep thought that would steal you from the herd.

My final point for now is that of the “herd”. Organised religion, to me, has always seemed like a tool to weaken humanity and rally it around as the leaders desire. My personal belief is that most organised religion was created by someone who so despised the “evil” part of humanity and the suffering of the world that they sought to wrap man in chains so he was simply too dumb and weak to realise such things. In the end, all organised religion does is tell you to believe in an invisible being and do whatever he says without question until you die. Seems like one big distraction, does it not?

Rhein wrote:

Regardless of the life you lead, there is something inside of all of us that lets us know the difference between good and bad. There is something in us that says “your not supposed to do this”, we may listen, we may not, we may have even got to the point to where we choose not even to hear this voice anymore, but its always there. This is ultimately why religion derives. There is an urge to do good, no matter how evil our worldly selves may be, which as a result even produces evil acts in religion as you have alluded. But this urge to do good is obviously a push towards something higher and better than ourselves.

To a certain degree, I would agree with this. It is human instinct to, most of the time, take the “good” road. However, for someone like myself, who chooses to recognise that good and evil are, in fact, mere adjectives to classify human actions, this is not so. I strive to be human; not good, evil, anything between, nor above or below. As long as I know my actions are influenced by my own morality (which was not imposed on me by religion) and contain my genuine will, that is what I consider pushing towards something higher and better than myself. To constantly strive for a select group of actions within human nature (as religious people do, at least they seem to) is essentially nonsensical and backwards to me. This is not to suggest that I’m going go commit what are considered evil acts, like murder, in order to “ascend”, but I do not call many things religion would consider “sinful” to be as such. For example, pre-marital sex-- I believe that such things as who you choose to have sex with and at what age you do so are entirely up to you. Certain religious needlessly restrict such a choice. That’s just one example, however.

Rhein wrote:

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with you. The problem is, how many people do you think are going to listen to this part of them selves that pushes them towards this higher ideal without religion? I would have to say not many, unless of course they have at least been introduced to a religion or see the rationale in doing good as opposed to performing selfishly. Which leads me to my next question, I know it will be difficult to answer with an open mind, but do you believe that your previous introduction to religion had an effect on your desire to simply be human, which could then be your pushing towards this higher ideal? I mean if you had not even had a inkling of an idea of God, there was no religion around you and inevitably wouldnt be able to affect your thoughts, would you still want to instead of doing whatever your worldly self wants to do, listen to that person inside of you and do what is considered in your mind to be right? I took it that when you said you would be pushing towards something higher than yourself you were referring to the concept that it is inevitable that this push is occuring. And if so, I definetely agree with that. But without any idea of religion, can this inevitable push be recognized as so?

Hm. I think I understand what you’re asking. Let me know if I’m answering correctly. lol

The other day I said to my friend “I wish I could go back in time and meet the men who wrote the various books of the Bible, that is, the true authors beyond any doubt.” My friend replied “I don’t care.” I questioned him as to why and he said “Because those who are able to escape the illusions of the text have done so. That’s natural selection at its finest.”

I’m not sure about natural selection, but I agree with him in a certain way. It seems like certain people simply have a stronger will to knowledge than others. I’m not quite sure what determines their willpower, however, so it is possible that this “push” is not inevitable for everyone. Could it be the existence of religion that propelled me to go against it and open myself to broader views and philosophies or was it simply within my individual capabilities which I chose to embrace?

In my opinion, religion has in no way affected my interest in being human, or being what is considered a philosopher. I have always been naturally inquisitive as to the many questions the world proposes and equally have I felt it is my duty to drag out the things that no one wants to talk about because either they lack the interest or fear it. The only contribution religion has made to my philosophical thought is to make me want to spread my messages to others even more in the hope that they may someday seek deeper thoughts as I did and hopefully abandon their religion. I realise that may be rather shameless, but I live without religion and I am happier than I have ever been in my life. (I was a Christian until the age of 12.)

Put simply, I’ve always naturally felt like I realised my own potential as a person and continue to do so. I merely want to offer people the door to the same openess. Aside from that, does the world not need someone to challenge society to review their beliefs? Even though I am utterly against organised religion (especially all forms of Christianity) I can respect the pious man who proves to me that his beliefs and religious morality were a choice and that they are genuinely maintained as long as they do not profess to be righteous or anything of the sort. So I suppose that is what compels me to be human, simply being sure that people truly believe what they believe…that they have purpose and do not suffer needlessly. For example, people who say “Life is so empty I need God to make it otherwise”, those are the self-harming people who need will and openess. I hope that I am an example to such people. Might be lofty, but oh well.

EDIT: And to answer the question of the inevitable push directly…I believe that every human is born with the will to truth and knowledge. As I said, whether out of fear or something else like upbringing (there are so many factors) people choose to settle for something easy and comforting like religion. Has it not become the sign of the majority to take the easy route? Thus is the explanation for why so little actually pursue the will. In my opinion, society these days (in America anyway) teaches the youth to be ignorant of philosophy and even hollow. Of course I can only reference my own school and city, in which teens who study philosophy like myself are extremely rare and even discouraged. (Usually discouraged by religious zealots, by the way.)

Rhein wrote:

First of all, I want to thank you for your sincere answer. You definetely answered correctly.

Your friend is probably saying more than he realizes, as I agree with him fully. We, as human beings are the result of evolution, and at the same strength are still evolving. This goes into a lot of other explanations that I just dont have time for right now, but if you’d like me to I will be happy to explain. Anyway, the reason why you have decided to take your own route, is because you have what can be referred to as initiative. Basically you’ve been through all the following you can take, rather believed that it was in a previous life; which for me is most plausible, or at some other time, and have realized that the best route is the route of self. This is why some people have that stronger will to knowledge, or most specifically to truth. It is believed that you have already done plenty of learning, and have done so under the influence of others beliefs as excepted in your perceptions. But it is through yourself that you must interpret and learn, so why take others beliefs as truth when you can find out for yourself through trial and error. Another question, why would you think that you, out of all these other people have derived to the point that you come to? I mean just as you alluded to in your post, your not quite sure what determines this will power, if the idea of previous lives are true, then you would be able to derive at this answer.

Also, your desire to help others as to propel them into deeper thought about the things they simply accept as truth is in no way shameless. I respect your desires, but might I suggest to keep your search for the truth strong as well, rather than to focus on enlightening others. Im not telling you to quit, but I can guarantee you that your perspective will inevitably change, as this is what life is all about; change. Your right, we do need people to challenge these beliefs, but what you will soon learn as I am sure you have probably already done so, is that you will be on a journey mostly on your own. This is because in the end, we must see things as they truly are for ourselves, noone can give this to you. There will be others close to you, and these people will help you, and you them. There will be those who are what could be considered as beneath you, and you will help some of them, those who are closest to you in growth, but the majority will sneer and despise you, for you are going against what they believe to be truth. Stay strong in your efforts my friend, continue to learn from yourself; for God, or the Infinite, or the Source, whatever you want to call it, is truly within all of us, and He is definetely the best teacher.

You have to understand that those individuals being so propelled to believe in a particular religion, are for lack of a better word ignorant of truth beyond their limited views. They will claim they have the truth, and claim they are righteous, when they are acting in direct dissention to whats right.

Your right about the will to truth and knowledge, but as I alluded to earlier, we are all at different stages in our evolution. Few individuals will be more advanced, most individuals will be around the same stage, or in the vast middle of advancement, and another small amount will be very far less advanced. The more advanced are “older souls” while the less advanced are “newer souls” who havent had the plethora of lifetime experiences as of yet. I dont believe it to be fear or upbringing to propel people to religion or other less satisfying truth seeking possiblities, but it is their level of growth instead.

The idea of “old souls” is somewhat plausible in that certain things come to me more naturally than others, whether it be a simple academic skill or knowledge of what are considered more advanced philosophies, especially for my age. Nonethless I’ve never seriously pondered it, as I assume that this is one of the truths I will learn in death. (Hopefully. o_O) For now, I stand by my “individual experiences” theory, because it is the only logical thing I can prove at this point. That is, the point I have arrived at now is based mostly on my experiences in my life. In specific reference to me, it would mostly be my suffering that brought me to this point. Of course it could be the same for everyone. Personally, I believe that suffering can bring us further, assuming that we choose to learn from it.

I agree with what you said about being alone in the end. A wise man once said “In the end, one only experiences oneself.” And of course I know that although I can help others and they can help me, it is up to oneself to shape their lives and beliefs. Hence why I said I want to show people the door; it is there choice to open it or not.

Rhein wrote:

How great it would be to know these truths in death, but how much more wonderful it would be to know them as truth in life, more importantly everlasting life. There is reason to your growing as a soul. Life is ever changing, and death in itself is also a change. You can go beyond the normal death of these less advanced souls, and take your place amongst those who have grown to this position before you. This is where the concept of heaven derives, when you become enlightened, you are in heaven. Strive for it my friend, you will get there. Simply have the desire to.

I have no problem with the idea of karma in general, but when you throw up nonsense idea that people are rewarded by caste and position in life and whether or not they believe in god, (regardless of their actions, for instance the suicide bomber, yes you said he’d be punished shortly before saying he’d being in a higher caste in his next life.) I have to draw the line of reason.

I would disagree with that… I think we are alone all of the time. The state of being alone, is artificial though, we are trapped within our own consciousness only to be set free in dreams. During our waking hours, we sometimes let others touch our consciousness, and become apart of our lives. I think many people avoid this part of humanity because they know the end result is that they will change.

You cannot avoid changing when you let others in your life. Their consciousness merges with your own.

We leave and live the world alone by choice. We learn nothing by doing so though. Only by merging ourselves with others do we fully gain the knowledge of empathy required.

Hello Rhein,

Thank you for your rather simplistic answers to the question, but I believe you are very much influenced by the idea that “primitive” man was an untamed barbarian and brutish, or at best childlike or crude. The idea of early mankind being like us, albeit without our technology which was already developing, is widespread. The fact that language was developed, that tools were designed and monuments erected by a supposed untamed “creature” that finally became us is completely ridiculous.

There is enough history and archaeology to suggest that the barbarian and brute is not the “primitive” but the fallen homo sapiens. That is, the result of a fallen civilisation. In the event of civilisations declining, culture becomes ridiculed, religion becomes a caricature, social standards decline, people die through lack of hygiene, and behaviour becomes extremely vulgar – much like today. To compare early man with such behaviour is just not in keeping with what we witness him developing.

Religion is an inherent component of mankind. Of course, not necessarily in the way we have come to know it in our age, but then again, our age is waning. Our sentience has a very real source, although it is very mysterious. It has nothing to do with the kind of “religion” you are describing, where gods are “things”, or “superhuman” and behave befitting to mankind. The ineffable source of our sentience has something about it similar to a collective awareness, though it is without language and is expressed in the language of the varying cultures of the world, accordingly with varying images and symbols.

Taking the biblical account, the manifestations of the Ineffable are often “for the people”, drawing them away from idolatry and other forms of the adoration of power. If we include the teaching of Jesus as a natural development of biblical awareness, “believers” were drawn towards their own abilities to redeem a world suffering under decadence and misuse of power. Faith is the key - as small as it may be, it can move mountains of suffering and turmoil. The realm of God is in the midst of mankind who are created in his image – that is, created aware and able to be as creative as the architect of life.

The term “God” is more a description than a name. The only name we have is more a programmatic declaration than a name: “I am” or “I will be”. This is in keeping with the mysterious awareness that is ineffable. The same word is used for Unity, or One. The fact that we have lost our roots in the Semitic origins of our religion shows why we assume that God is “a hollow idea” with which we cannot reconnect. Our times are too fast and too decadent to allow us time to find the spiritual practice that would help us find the awareness we need. Instead, we spout off platitudes, assuming that we are the pinnacle of humanity, whereas humanity has long past, and we are just the dregs left over.

Shalom

scythekain wrote:

These are my words…

How is that nonsense?

I never said anything about whether or not they believe in God specifically and the results karmically. Considering the individual who grows up in a family who are atheist, but are very selfless, they will most likely have more reward in the next life than the one who believes in God, and is selfish. A belief in a specific God is not needed, it is the sacrifice for ones particular God that I was considering; its the intent.

The caste and position issue is as plausible and sound as it can get. I mean there is no other way one can explain the myriad of postions individuals are placed in life, other than simple chaos, and if you know anything about life and nature, you know that all things are in correct order with the laws of nature. You mentioned previously about the possibility of individuals being able to choose their position or incarnation for the next life, why would people choose to be in a lower caste system, or to live amongst theives and murderers? Why would people choose to be placed in positions where they would later be raped? The only explanation is that they dont choose, but rather are positioned in relation to previous karma, its the only concept that works. I dont understand why you have such a difficult time seeing that.

This wasnt my quote, the original quote in context is…

I agree with you partly, for this is directly the paradox at hand we are discussing. We “believe” we are alone. We identify with this limited perspective of consciousness, and dont necessarily realize that we are simply a part of the whole, encompassing all.

When I say that one is alone in the end, I mean that nearing the end of the journey one must begin to seek and find for himself. That the beliefs he might have once shared with friends, family, and others with similar views will inevitably diminish, and one will derive to his own beliefs. In this way he is now alone, for he doesnt share the same concepts and thoughts as he once did with others. This is only temporary however, as all life positions are, and when one truly derives to the end, he realizes and understands that “he” was never alone, for “he” was only a fabrication that felt independent from the rest, when truly “he” was and now more importantly is all. Now one could argue that consciousness in itself is alone, but the only perception of this can be obtained from the pinnacle consciousness of the source, and considering that I believe the source is infinite, there is no pinnacle, and therefore no perceived loneliness.

how?

because they’re rewarded at all.

You never answered the first time so again , who would see to it that I lost that child , since if it was up to me , naturally I would rather not pay up for having previously killed one of your family?

Who will put me there ?

scythekain wrote:

So good intent means nothing to you, laws of nature reflect that differently.

There is no good intent in self destruction and the destruction of others, regardless of whether or not you believe in god when you commit the act.

and what laws of nature?

the dogmatic Hindu Caste system that keeps people in their place?

Assuming that this kind of Karmic retribution exists (which I don’t think it does, it’s nothing more than cosmic revenge), it would have to have some sort of cosmic intelligence behind it, and one would hope that it would be a benevolent intelligence and not like the ones described by most religions.

That’s the mystery. We could say “god puts you in this life and all lives”.

But what does that mean? what does god mean?

Is god the creator of the universe? or the sacrificial lamb?

What are we aspiring to become through our life recycling program?

perhaps the answer is in the last place we’ll look.

scythekain wrote:

The good intent derives from the belief that this is what their God wishes them to do. They know not of any other perspective, and therefore should not be punished accordingly.

These laws are just what they are, the laws of nature. I cant really explain them further, but I would also like to comment on what you wrote further to DoL.

It isnt cosmic revenge, its due retribution. I mean you cant evaluate this retribution from your subjective perspective. When something is done by an individual, a balance is disturbed. A cause is created, and an effect must take place. This effect invariably must produce another effect toward the individual who created the cause in order to restore this balance. Karma does this with perfection. There is perfect and beautiful justice in karma, not the justice we believe to be justice, which is subjectively flawed. You should be able to rest in the knowing that nothing you do can go unrecompensed by karma, as it is used in order to restore perfect balance, and beyond that its truly just!

No karmic retribution ? , yet you say in reply to me asking what should happen to someone should they kill another for no good reason ;

But then when I ask which power shall see to it that this justice is done you say ;

Whats the difference between cosmic revenge and karmic retribution ?

If cosmic revenge has no deities involved , how is justice enforced ?

Again, which creator , a creator that made heaven and earth and governs universal affairs ? A paper mache creator , what ?