Circumcision

Hi religious folks!

I’m posting a topic about circumcision in Mundane that is more extensive. However, I would like to know your stance on it and what the exact reason for it is from a religious perspective.

Also, if god created us then why are we cutting off a piece of his design? That seems like a bit of an insult.

“Seems an insult” is just one interpretation. A little creativity and you can come up with a lot of reasons. One might be that God created the foreskin for the part it would play in the covenant of circumcision. Another argues that it was adam’s fall from grace that led to this incompleteness as a punishment. Another might argue it’s god’s way of keeping us chaste, after sodom and gemorrah.

I argue it’s relatively harmless procedure that involves non-essential tissues which when removed conform to an overwhelming societal norm, and that the conforming is the lesser of two evils at this point. Plus, the effect is now reversible, and will continue to become more reversible with nanotech’s organic applications. The lines blur between what is essential and not…hair, fingernails, moles, etc., are removed routinely, and parents reserve the right to decide if children should immolate their bangs at a young age; liver, eyes, tongue, testicles…these are functional, essential things that should not be tampered with YET. Foreskin, like clitoris, falls somewhere in the middle, but to my mind, clitoris is similar to the head of the penis, not merely the skin around the head, and as such, it is essential. The removal wouldn’t diminish orgasm, it would remove the possibility of orgasm, which is altogether different.

In sum, it is either a beautiful meaningful covenant with God or it’s a dimwitted, barbaric practice, like cinnabons, pro sports and traffic jams, which in addition to being barbaric, are harmful. I’d rather discuss something that matters, like abortion or death penalty, and even then, only by a small margin.

My parents didn’t circumcise me until I was around 6 years old because my mom, being a doctor, had been hearing that it was unnecessary. But apparently I wasn’t good at cleaning under the foreskin and I kept getting infections down there. So they had it cut off.

I want my foreskin back.

“Foreskin, like clitoris, falls somewhere in the middle…”

I think that it’s the lower middle!

Gamer, I think that although you enumerated the various reasons for the procedure very well I would like to understand it all a little bit better. What exactly is the “covenant with god” in this case? What agreement is the baby making?

Also, you mention the reduction of sexual desire. Seeing as how the Indians had their religion before the Jews it makes me wonder if it’s not just another mindless borrowed ritual. Of course, I am not the best person to ask here.

Also, I think that you are glossing over the whole effect on the physiology of the penis and exaggerating the scope and efficiency of plastic surgery, not to mention the cost. The head of the penis is a mucous membrane, not dissimilar from vaginal skin, I suppose. It is meant to exist in a moist environment.

The circumcised penis has a callous on it, that you can’t get rid of. I sincerely doubt that plastic surgery can simulate the exact nature of the foreskin. I know that attempts to create a penis for sex change operations can result in grotesque rotting, as blood vessels do not always perfectly link up. That’s an adult risk though and embarked upon with some level of choice. Meanwhile, why should any male have to get an operation to resolve what was done to them as a baby. Finally, the cost of said operation, even if it was perfect, would not be manageable by many men. Perhaps the Judeo/Christian league ought to get some money together before I start a class action suit.

This is an important issue because we become conditioned to “having things done to us” from birth and perhaps that’s the root cause of many a dysfunction. It’s a multi-level intrusion into our lives, and by whom.

That’s a good question.

aporia,

That’s an odd story. I wonder if your parents caved in to anxiety about it. At that age, if I didn’t clean up correctly, then my mom would do it for me.

I spent years cleaning the asses of retarded people. I imagine that cleaning my kid’s penis would be a small task.

Sorry to hear about the foreskin.

The covenant is between the jew and God, made on behalf of the baby. I think it dates back to Mt Sinai when the Torah included a law about circumcision. It’s a hoke (sounds like hoax) much like not eating pork is a hoke, meaning it doens’t have a logical explanation or one that humans can understand, much like Abraham slaying Isaac. It’s just a show of faith and submission.

I think the burden of proof is on you when you say it has any effect on the psyche or any real effect on the way we experience sex. You can look at it in a darwinian way, that our mind evolved to be religious, and the foreskin will be phased out in this perpetual bloody way. I don’t really care. I think it’s funny. I think people who focus on it have too much time on their hands. Ultimately it’s a religious issue, and there are more worthy debates out there… say not blowing people up. Birth control. Gay marriage. Things like that. But if you can reverse it great! I thinks it’s wrong, like I think most religious things are wrongheaded. But in my opinion it’s not a big deal. And I guess opinion counts and mine is the majority…it’d be really hard to prove that babies care a whit.

Late edit: An orgasm is already too good. If it felt any better down there I don’t think I would function in a healthy way. It’s already 100 times better than the second best feeling, how greedy do you wanna get?

That’s like saying the I have to prove that the removal of thumbs would affect tool use. Hey, most of us don’t even use tools. What about the little toe? What’s that for? The before and after effect is too difficult to tell if you are missing something from birth.

I find it to be an extreme irony that the word for these baseless rules is called a hoax! That’s great, and I commend you for having the honesty to give that bit of information up. I know that you see a joke coming from a mile away.

Personally, I admire Jews for a variety of things but mainly for their ethics. So, can we get some Jewish scholars to amend the Talmud to instruct doctors to leave the goyims’ collective penis alone? Let’s not start.

That would be the answer right there Ad . It is an insult ,and if we follow the reasoning of the Jewish orthodoxy we will see this easily .

First of all here is what the Jews would say regarding the matter , as you will see , its all about cleanliness ;

" The foreskin is composed of an outer layer that is keratinized, , as is skin generally, and an inner layer that is a mucosal surface.

The inner layer lines a ‘preputial sac’, which becomes a repository for shed cells, secretions and urinary residue that accumulates . It is also a hospitable environment for the growth of bacteria and other microorganisms.

{ From link below }

circinfo.net/#infection

If god created the world , and man is sinful , and seperated himself from god , then it makes sense that he should start over again as a beast and not a divinity . God seeing this would have thought , " well I cant just leave them there to get on with it , I,ll have to instruct them , advise them how best to avoid the illness and disease they have incurred in themselves by falling from grace.

So he would naturally have given men certain laws to help would,nt he ?
But because we have evolved what use are these laws now?
Should Jews still stone people to death for doing work on the sabbath ?
Of course not.

You and I may not agree with the idea of mans fall from grace , but the Jews do , so following their line of thinking , we uncover flaws in their reasoning .

Death from being unclean was probably high since medicine was not very advanced at the time this law of circumcision came about .

But as you know early folks were,nt too smart since they never had the knowledge or technology .

Common folk did,nt have soaps and cosmetics , showers , more than likely they were not so bothered about showering every day .

But Healthy people are fit to work more days in the year , healthy people are alive to make up the numbers in a specific group ,more importantly , fight , and pay taxes . Again , think of the early Jewish authority , and their gameplan in light of how best to apply
" the art of war " .

How can israel pose a threat if all the men are dying of disease and ill health ?

These were times when people fought all the constantly , a sign of weakness in political and military affairs and no mercy was expected from neighbouring kings . Everyone was out for themselves .

If you like Circumcision was early mans safeguard against potential disease . A lazy way of keeping clean ! A tradition at best and not a divine rule .

What Jews have failed to realize is that they were supposed to move on , a good few years ago .They , as religious folk , have never realized that if there is a god , then surely technology must be part of his plan .

So now we have hot jet powered showers , water heaters , soaps of all descriptions , anti funghal and virus solutions . Your average man now is clean , washed , has clean clothes on every day that smell ok .

Every man should now know that he should wash his entire body thoroughly . This includes his penis . With this done , of course risk of infection is very very low .

But will Jews prefer to embrace this attitude and see the sense in whats being said here ?

Not likely , same as the catholic church , they find it hard to move on , they believe that the longer they stick to something the more devout an idea it will become , like the worship of relics in the medieval period that more than likely never were the bones of a dead saint in the first place .

Psychological trickery . Its all about enforcing the the belief in an exalted position, which was important down through the ages , because if men did,nt feel proud and in some way special , they would,nt fight to the death for you against enemies , and the ability to pose a threat to others has always been of utmost importance .

This way of thinking still hides itself under the commerce and trade of this age .

Not to over do it, but please answer my secular questions about the topic in mundane.

Work-related,I hope

Yes, though I had a few laughs while doing it.

What is your take on the topic?

I think circumcision is practical if you live in the desert and have limited access to water in which to wash yourself. Like many of the diet restrictions and Maternal lineage, it has lost it’s purpose.

If a male child has issues with the foreskin, i.e. too tight,unable to keep it clean,etc. remove it. If not, leave the poor little blighter’s wang alone.

I couldn’t believe that 80% of Americans had it done and 6% in the UK! Enough already.

Wow… Shy, I’m guessing you were implying this but could it be that the Hebrews, being a desert people, imposed circumcision as a practical measure and then theologized it as a covenant between God and the Israelites?

That sounds like a hoax to me!

Saying it’s like removing thumbs? What a dumb analogy, 2 B X-pected from a lesobian jew. Let’s get some things strate=

There are a number of classifications for kinds of tissues/organs. Well I guess tissue versus organ is 1 of them, so forget that. But on the spectrum of body parts thumbs are more important then forskin, and hair and fingernails are less important then foreskin. They groiw back, too. However, certain changes to the body take place at birth that are permanent, like vaccines. Maybe the vaccine makes life better, or maybe it gets in the way of the nature of the body. You have to chose your battles. I’m glad I didn’t have my thums removed at berth. But my 4-skin, who cares? Think about this: a man has a better chance at finding a mate if he has circumcision. There a lot of women who want a cut man, and many of them are from a higher substrate of genetics. Sure some woman don’t care, but there are more women that want a cut man only than want an uncut man only, ergo, there is some survival value in getting your kid cut and I think that’s why it caught on for secular society. It’s an attempt to fit in, and if you cut your kid you increase his chance of accpetance and passing HIS jeans along, and he’d thank you fer that if only he could talk. I hear some infants CAN talk, like in that movie Look Who’s Taling 2. I know it’s just a story, asshole, but there are scientests who say its real. The same ones who say Chrits is a known fact/.

Well geez Rage, I’m not sure that I’m willing to give up the protective tip of my penis just for peer pressure, but then no one asked me, and you can bet that any little Adlerian won’t have to worry about it. I’m not letting anybody get him if I’m lucky enough to have him show up.

I think I’m going to side with the Euros on this one, but hey, nobody here’s about to join the Aryan Nation over it.

I admire your resovle. But when nobody asks li’l adner to the prom, don’t blame me. blame the tip. don’t you even know what tips stands for?

To Insure Proper Service.

So I guess that means he’ll get proper service. From his hand.

We will move little Adler to England away from the religious fanatics and their kids. It gonna be ok.

Adler honey, cleary you don’t understand evolution OR barbarism. According to you, ANYTHING that has evolved is there for a reason (foreskin) that HELPS and is BENEFICIAL and should not be ALTERED, because that would be BARBARIC. This is very similar thinking to dogmatic religion. Evolution is NOT scripture or liturgy. Nor is it always beneficial, since many distinct forces are evolving simultaneously and sometimes wind up at cross purposes. Finally, evolution is not limited to bodily tissue. Societies, ideas, customs…all evolve in similar ways to our bodies, and for the same reason. An often ephemeral survival value.

Religions, which I find fallacious and damaging, also arose via evolution, and whether the beliefs and customs have survival value today is debatable. I wouldn’t rule it out. Same goes for circumcision. Most women in my cultural group would not have wanted a man who was uncut, nor would they tolerate having a son who’s father insisted he was uncut. Is this a testament to the shallow conformity of most people today? Yes. But does evolution favor such conformity right now? Apparently so.

Barbarism is relative. You have no moral high ground when you attack circumcision, clitoris removal, or maiming of any kind. No more than a praying mantis who eats the head of her mate. What you do have is merely the right to exert your opinion and fight against something you feel is aesthetically displeasing – this concept of cutting something from an unconsenting baby. But you do so at your peril, because there are powerful forces behind these practices. Also, you risk wasting an inordinate amount of time…fueled by the questionable percept that it matters at all, fueled by FAITH that this tiny piece of skin matters one iota.

A much more appealing battle is the one Sam Harris wages. It’s a broad attack against forces that rob us of reality and life. Circumcision, in contrast, seems tiny in comparison. Also, one might attack education for “circumcizing” excellence by forcing students into narrow roles and institutions, robbing many of them of their greater potentials. Certainly you’re circumsizing your childs natural human potential for religious faith by telling him from a very young age that it’s all malarkey. He has no say in this, yet you do it wholeheartedly.