An All-Powerful “God” is an Expression of Man's Sin

The American Theologian John Dillenberger wrote:

“The general notion of the omnipotence and omniscience of God define power and knowing in ways that are actually analogous to what sinful man would like to be able to do and know…Sinful man would like to have all power to eliminate the problems that frustrate him and the world, and to know all things – past, present and future….The traditional conceptions of omnipotence and omniscience are among the clearest illustrations of the way in which man has made God in his own image, in the image of his sinful self.”

Does one see in the traditional view of God, the very expression of Man’s “sin”?

Dunamis

Man would like to have all power to eliminate the problems that frustrate him. He also knows from living in society that there are certain things people do that make the problems worse. Positing an omnipotent/omniscient God is his way of saying that the answers are there if we ask for them in the right way (prayer) and stop making things worse (repentance from sin). I suppose this makes more sense to many people than an impersonal universe where there is no one from whom we may ask for answers.

Well its all just toadyism of the worst kind. Suck up to the dominator and hope to benefit from some of his largesse

What then is the sin of man? That he is weak? That he is ignorant? Or might it be his deceit and his vanity?
For out of vanity he seeks to hide his weakness, and his ignorance. So he envisions a being who is the opposite, and opposite to an unparalleled extreme.

For all that is unacceptable within must be rejected or projected outwards. Even man has his Shadow. Even God has his rejected aspect in the form of the Devil.

Dunamis

Hmmm…starting to sound like Simone Weil in her analysis of “power.”

Yes, I believe this is a good example of the gradual success of the efforts of experts.

Do you not realize that each time you say something like this, YOU sound like an “expert”? What a shame to put such a good mind to waste. As Simone Wiel always says when I channel her, “Beware the transmigration of opinion, its sense always gets trapped in the nerves.”

Dunamis

I’d like to thank my friend Dan for this.
(copy and pasted, sorry for the spelling)

Sin?
Love yourself, love the root of your sin, which is your own desire, your soul, yourself.
I didnt chose to like to do the wrong thing, but when i want to do somthing “wrong”, and when its not realy hurting anyone,
i wont want to hurt anyone or myself.
No matter what you try to stop, what and who you are will be inside and outside of you,
just calm down, sin if you have to, learn from it, and cary on, your fear is paralizing your spiritual progress!
How did i learn? Through failure. How do you become “rightious”? Through hard work and “sin”.
Instantly forgive any sin that youve ever commited that you didnt realy want to commit,
this way the side that did not want the sin will be able to make peace with the sin instead of you
having hateful battles within yourself. All life id ever seen “sins”, and “God” isnt stopping that, is he?
So we have to stop that, by uniteing with every peace of our evil, then understanding it,
then changeing it to be what is most right.

During your darkest hours, and during your betrayul and your pain and your loveless agonizing nights,
you feal the most guilty at these times, because you want to solve the problems, but you cant,
so its easy for you to turn on yourself.
Does this help? No, never! Only love, understanding and effort will solve these weaknesses,
abuse merely makes them calased and insain.

You see why i hate religion now? They preach alot, and dont love their self even.
Alot of those strict-assed-cults scare you of your own weakness.
They can tell you its wrong, but they cant fix it for you, or realy help you fix it,
because they arent offering solutions, they are offering commands and opinions,
wich are basicly useless.

I disagree with this point. In vanity he envisions a being who is perfect? Doesn’t a perfect being only highlight the imperfections of the imperfect? Or am I missing your point here?

If there was no idea of an omnipotent and omniscient being, wouldn’t human vanity proclaim itself as the highest level of potential in the world?

Dunamis

When considering what words like omnipotence and omniscience it is normally done by our personality. This is truth created by Man. The inner meanings of these words can touch the inner man or his essence as the culmination of “being.” This is the truth of essence experienced emotionally that is beyond our literal comprehension…

Spiritual concepts are experienced as divine truth by the human essence. After a while the lawful degeneration of conscious understanding into the associative reason of the personality produces “experts” to impress the personalities of those around them.

If you have a better way of expressing this lawful degeneration of direct experiential understanding of the relativity of “being” into literal thought and idolatry, I’m open to read it.

Man says: “‘Truth before God is essence; truth’ before man is personality”, thereby manifesting personality.

Nick says: “‘Truth before God is essence; truth’ before man is personality”, thereby manifesting Truth.

Go figure.

Dunamis

Dunamis, it is because truth is relative. Haven’t you heard the expression: “this is your truth” and all our truths are equal? This is the truth of the cave and normally the best we can know. The truths of God to be experienced requires not being dominated by the personality. This is relatively rare and non-essential to the expert.

Do you imagine that your “truth” is not dominated by your personality? Because from way over here, it seems your personality is coming through in full megahertz clarity. To me it seems like arrogance to speak of the Cave, and not have Compassion be the single and most overriding tone in your voice.

Dunamis

Dunamis

Sure, I admit to being what St. Paul referred to as the “wretched man” where personality is dominant. But this doesn’t mean that I cannot admit to the fact that concepts like omnipotence and omniscience are beyond its limitations and just try to be open in front of them rather than humanizing God.

“Sure, I admit to being what St. Paul referred to as the “wretched man” where personality is dominant.”

Have you ever considered that the solution for the “wretched man” state is Compassion, and not Gnosis?

Dunamis

Dunamis

The wretched man by definition is a plurality in opposition to himself. As such we are only capable of selective justified compassion which, if anything, only serves to further the inner divisions of the “wretched man.”

Blah, blah, blah, blah.

When I begin to hear compassion in your voice, I will begin to listen to you. All else is just intellectualization under another name. Compassion is not “justified”, selectively or otherwise.

Dunamis

I’m the one admitting selective compassion. Yet where is yours in the presence of this poor misguided soul?

Dunamis,

I am interested in this, why is it that you consider compassion a solution for the “wretched man” state?

Nick: “I’m the one admitting selective compassion. Yet where is yours in the presence of this poor misguided soul?”

I am exercising it as best as I can. I have compassion for your need to hypostate your wretchedness. I hear and realize that need in myself, and see that need in others. I am pointing, as best as I can, to another way of seeing things, the sense that wretchedness is alleviated through others. In my mind you are neither misguided nor deceived, because you steer your own boat, as we all do. Only the degree and the dimension of your suffering is your choosing. Make your pleasure and your path, and I will reflect, as best as I can, what I see back onto you so you can see whatever you will.

Dunamis

Noel,

Honestly I don’t know. There is a sense in which the simplicity of it attracts me. It seems to mark the experience that I have personally had when in the presence of those who seemed to be genuinely spiritual – or unwretched – many of whom where not trying to be “spiritual” at all. Besides it being a common denominator of my experience of others, it coincides with some rather elemental Buddhist teachings, the idea that “unwretchedness” is right there before us. Compassion, more than any other noun seem to connote connectivity, a connectivity that appears broken in a state of “wretchedness”. There is something to wretchedness, that despite, or rather because of, its harshness of view upon the self, is truly only concerned with the Self, no matter its disclaimers. There is something about compassion that immediately decenters concerns, and connects in one movement. It is my experience that with myself, and with those who suffer, that these are people disproportionately concerned with themselves – if only to lament on their condition. There is something that is strikingly unhealthy about this. Wretchedness seems relieved by connectedness. Compassion, coupled with another Buddhist principle, non-attachment, seems to describe in very elemental terms, a simple recipe for a path that is immediately and always before you, but also difficult to walk. I think walking that path does not even allow for wretchedness, as if there is no room for it. I’m not a Buddhist, but Compassion does seem like a very good word for the kinds of things that I have found important in living, something I am always a better person for.

Dunamis

Dunamis

To an extent I agree. This is how I understand Buddhism and its conception of re-birth. The Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path change karma effecting the Buddhist conception of re-birth.

However, The anxiety and quickness of life in the west causes a certain suppression resulting in escapism which defeats its purpose.

That is why I am more drawn to esoteric Christianity which has as its goal the transformation of suffering as opposed to its avoidance.

From this perspective it is not a matter of the sense of wretchedness being alleviated but plurality becoming reconciled, transformed in the direction of inner unity through the invited presence of the holy spirit.