Thirst, apart from you, who seems to be the only one who has derived true satisfaction from the religious manifestations of your kin, nobody I see had in mind that this thread could be taken seriously.
This is why I am asking you know if you could seriously find religion fun, that is to say: recomforting and relaxing. I know that Jesus had dinner with his apostles too and spent time with children, but I fail to see the true meaning of religion in this.
How can religion be fun, when you are confronted seemingly again with your weak nature and bear the heavy burden of your sins ? Especially in Christianity, which is a religion of the Absolute by excelence, complacency and vane activities should be let aside, don’t you think ?, in the scope of educating the spirit towards a higher dimension of being.
I think religion can be fun. It drives humanity to be social. We strive to want to be apart of a group, and part of the attraction of any religion is that you are apart of a group.
I think this is becoming important today more than ever as towns and cities become larger, people grow more and more apart. “Church” (even your DR. S) brings people together. As thirst said he has fond memories of a church picnic. I have fond memories of camping trips I took as a mormon boy scout (there is a difference).
It’s the same thing. It’s not god that attracts most people to be in church. It’s the prospect of not being alone. (note: this is what drives most conversions)
My church experiences were nearly always “fun”. I went to church: I sang with joy, I learned, I thought, I was challenged, I laughed out loud… Yes, church can be fun. In fact, one could make the argument that not only could church be fun, but it should be.
Not to mention that Christ teaches us to become like children: innocent, happy, playful and a lot more…
I remember one specific time when a minister regaled us with the story of Peter walking out into the lake to walk on water with Jesus. I laughed gleefully as the minister pointed out Peter’s courageous act to get out into the water and then to lose his bravery as the wind scared him… Maybe you had to be there. But it was good times.
I’ve had a few good times at various church camps, but I could only take the preaching so long. After being told what to do and given excuses as to why to do it, not to mention having a few of my core beliefs bashed by the main speaker, I just wanted to leave. I became an atheist at one such camp, as well as liberating one friend of mine from the bondage of religion. Not that I followed him around telling him God didn’t exist. He didn’t take much prodding.
Religious groups have you change yourself to fit the group, behaviorally. You should be a member of a group if you can, but primarily a free human being.
They were more demonized then you’ll ever be, and should go f***
themselves.
Lo!
@Doctor.S:
… =/ I guess we know what the doctor’s prescription is.
Bah! Realy now, if a religion can give you hope for the future AND say that the world is gunnu end… then judge + forgive you at the same time, and teach you yet stop you from trying to learn, then i guess it can be fun sometimes to. It all depends. Some religions are healthy, some are un-healthy.
Which brings us to my next point:
Love and freindship is the only true religion.
Religion can be fun because it bundles certain activities that are generally fun. These include social gatherings, songs, parties, festivals, rituals, learning, growing, and meditating on certain metaphors that can make you feel better/stronger/more relaxed. It has a side benefit of making death seem less scary.
My contention is that all these fun things can and should be divorced from “religion” per se, because they can be generated, sustained and combined in myriad ways that don’t require faith, or the claim of faith, in various ancient scrolls written by men. If you believe in the fundamental divinely generated tenets of religions, fine. Do it and enjoy the fun that comes with it. But if you don’t believe in the claims of authority in fundamnetal religions rangeing from Greek Mythology to Modern Christianity, get your fun some other way, because there will be a lot more flexibility and you won’t be helping to perpetuate what I personally feel is a restrictive, flawed and potentially catastrophic vehicle for exactly the kinds of things Thirst points out.
I agree with Thirst inasmuch as it makes no sense to villify religion on the grounds of quality of life, in most cases. But I think it makes sense to villify it on other grounds, too many to mention here.
It really burns me down to read this. These are exactly the sort of misconceptions that have been pushing Christianity to the burlesque image that it embraces today: the illusion of a victorious church, attending the impression that all of us within it are actual Christians. The triumphant, monolithical image of Christianity which you toss around, my sirs, as a sort of assumed state of being, a joyful and elastic amusement, is a sad error.
It makes me sick to read how people these days refute God just because He doesn’t come down and mows their lawn, or how they attempt do deconstruct Christ as if He were some Lego puppet, but it mostly annoys me to see how Christ is being pushed aside to make room for some chubby minister and his bed-time stories of people who lived and died a long time ago. Gentlemen, Christ lived a life of poverty and suffering, and whether you believe He was or was not God is your problem - but in order to declare yourself one of His followers, you need walk (or at least try to put yourself) in His sandals.
But being a Christian today has turned into a nothing, a buffoonery, something that everyone has access to without even having to squint. The Church is like grandpa sitting in his armchair, eating his soup and smiling benevolently while his grandbrats squash bugs in the yard. The triumphant Church, sitting in its earthly throne, has shouldered Christianity aside, in favour of a comfy, quiz-show like, recreation.
The grand error lies not in that the Church is advancing demographically (no, far from me this), but in that the Church has come to an internal halt, assuming for itself a static condition, subsisted by the fallacious idea that Truth in Christianity is a purpose, a being, overlooking the fact that Truth is actually being, walking, becoming.
Pondering firmly on what Christ said about He Himself being the Truth, the Absolute, then it becomes clear that a triumphant church cannot be in this world nothing more than a phantasy, that in this world we can only live within a struggling church.
Christianity isn’t entertainment for the masses - it concerns the individual and it addresses him entirely : “Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” Interaction within social life is, in this context, a challenge, and not an end in itself. It is wrong to look for Christianity in the harmony in which its adepts live - religion shapes itself in the heart, from which attitude emanates. Being thus like children in their innocence is something to look up to, but we screw up too often to be as uncaring and forgetful as children are.
Christ said: “My kingdom is not from this place” (liberal translation). He said this not as a reference to those times and places, but to as a universal statement. As soon as Christ’s kingdom comes to a deal with this world and becomes a kingdom of this world, Christianity has been pushed aside. When, conversely, Christianity is in and for Truth, then it is a kingdom in this world, but not of this world, meaning it is struggling.
Completely. They have you embrace something that is not a natural part of yourself, Have you believe things unjustified. But Thirst is right… It’s fun. It’s fun going to a convening of where everyone else in the room is hearing what you are hearing and embracing the same reality you are.
The quaker and buddhist meetings are boring. They just sit around meditating. Occasionaly a quaker stands up and starts spouting words… it’s a little disconcerting and ruins the silence.
mucios,
I don’t expect a lawn mowing, I do however expect a universal image of god, if we are to be expected to believe in his almighty power like these books would portray. Is the soul harvestor powerless to project a uniform, conformin image of himself to his masses?
And what is more likely, that god created man in his own image, or that man created god in his image?
I’m gonna guess with that statement you are either catholic, or a calvinist…
I see that you feel really strongly about this… as we have more and more things taken care of us by lower classes (either people or robots) we are destined to become more “comfy” and “quiz-show” like.
Care for a round of cranium? To see who can charade out Kindergarten?
I think you are unwilling to see the fact that people prefer being happy, than being depressed. The type of christ you believe in is a depressed old man, who shoulders the worlds sin… Not everyone likes going to a congregation to be depressed, get enough of that from reality.
Mucous, Jesus attended a wedding and probably had a good time. Jesus endorsed the fellowship of the disciples (he flat out encouraged it). In fact, it is doctrine to ‘rejoice in the lord’. There is no reason to think that Jesus wanted his disciples to starve, to not admire the beauty of god’s creations, etc.
Christ suffered so that we would not suffered. And while he asks us to follow in his footsteps, he does not ask us to abandon this earth. Jesus does not ask that you abandon your home but rather that you do not weep if you must abandon your home, he does not ask you to sit around and wait for the day of deliverance but rather to live a life of virtue, or righteousness. A life of perfection does not necessitate physical suffering as there can be plenty of spiritual suffering!
I’ll leave it at that… the point was as much like what Gamer pointed out. We should not villify the church based on quality of living–it is not necessary that you should lose out on living a fruitful life–but rather that you question the church on the other aspects. Does corrupt doctrine like you mentioned exist? Yes. Is it prevalent in Christianity today? Yes. Does this mean that it is impossible to live a fruitful life as a Christian? No, not at all. But you made many valid objections to the apostacy of today’s Christianity to which I say: well done!
Pardon my delusion, but in reading the primary post in this thread, I thought it made a rather ambiguous claim to “religion”, in a general context, not necessarily per se, Christianity? Or am I wrong?
I digress. My experiences have been more personal, as I do not mold well to social engagements of large groups of people.
I spent time learning from a Taoist monk, and to my rudimentary mindset, learning is of great fun, so I definitely enjoyed myself during those times. It taught me what I was not, which is vastly important, in my opinion.
It was most certainly the most remarkable lessons on life and what is of value to any life. Luckily, there was no indoctrination, rituals, or forced nature to anything I was given the opportunity to explore with him, which made the entire scenario very natural.
Mucius, I love your way of thinking, but…heey!..loosen up a bit, will you? Apart from your elfish-like language, you seem to take yourself far too seriously, which isn’t becoming. No offence, brother, but you sound like one of those Lord of the Rings characters,or hey, maybe it’s Braveheart
Thirst4metal touches the intimate nature of Christianity when he sais:
. While your frowned, jealous God is more like Jupiter Tonans and, sorry to say it, has nothing to do with the Christian God you allegedly worship. Do you think Heaven will be a sort of Akademos’s Garden, where some frowned, bearded philosophers will talk their heads off. NO, my dear! Heaven will be a picnic-I daresay in the most mundane sense. No, I’m wrong -Heaven CAN BE a picnic, right from this world. Why do you think Christ wants us to be like children? Because He want us to be forever smiling ,trustful and innocent. He doesn’t torture us…nor wants us to suffer. Suffering derives from our human condition, not from the will of God.
Christianity is rather this: grandpa sitting in an armchair, caressing his grandchildren,rather than the frowned self-whipping quaker. Christianity is happiness, fun, smiling and play and in no way
, as you say.
Christianity is all about learning to melt-down paradoxes into sheer living. That is: be wise like the serpents and innocuous like the doves or I came not to bring peace ,but sabre…between father and son etc but, at the same time, be peaceful, as my Father . Excuse the rigour of the quotes…thirst4metal surely doesn’t have this problem The idea is, anyway, that existence, as it is, is a pile of dung. Christ urges us to grow a rose out of it.It may be impossible, but not by the other-worldly, Christian reason.
Wrong.You make out of Christianity some sort of stoical doctrine, which bans fun and the simple pleasures of life,and, even more grotesque, is adressed only to the individual, who probably ought to love in a cave. No.Christianty is anything BUT this. We gain salvation only in and as part of the community we live in. This is the great challenge: to live righteously among your peers, not in some God-forsaken cave.
It seems that you are worried about the fate of contemporary Christianity. You should. But to derive from the fact that too many alledged-Christians missunderstand their religion the conclusion that the Church is stained is too much.Why? Because Christ is the vine and we are the sprouts. The whole teandric(from theos and andros ) community, that is Christ’s body ,which is the Church cannot be wrong in its whole. Of course, this doesn’t mean there aren’t particular members of the Church who are wrong- it just means that Christianity is in no danger to become decadent, like any other mundane institution, because, as you say,
, only this is not whole without
So, rejoice and have fun: Christ is waiting to receive you on his knees. :slight_smile: I know you are a gentleman, so I hope you' won't take my response personally. Cheers!
My God is not frowned, it’s just His way of saying hello. I would be more than glad to share Him with you, since your God seems a bit scanty.
Seriously now, I have re-read my posts in this thread and I can surely affirm that I made no reference to God’s facial expression whatsoever, nor did I shift towards a vengeful image of the Lord. What I attempted was merely to express my disapproval of the decentred image of Christianity that is being tossed around here.
Again, you misinterpret my words. I said nothing about what Heaven would be like. It was not my purpose, that, for that is something I lack direct knowledge about. However, this provides me with a solid basis on which to build my argument.
You talk as if the coronation of man’s existence is to have fun, and subsequently this leads you to believe that if we would just figure this out and make it happen, then all our problems would be solved - Heaven on Earth; and, in consequence, you bring the “be like a child” and “rejoice” exhortations in your defence.
Surely you jest, sir, because there is absolutely no reason for me to believe that this is the key to a victorious Christianity. I cannot accept a burgeoisie construct, where everyone is everyone’s tea-party guest. But please don’t get me wrong on this: I accept that religion can be fun, and it will be, at times, as a well deserved recumbency- I do not refute this as being unorthodox -, but this is undoubtedly not the finality sought after by a true Christian. The archetypal image of the child and the debonair rejoicing are images to be kept in mind, as testimony that on a spiritual and affective level we can always do better. Simple pleasures, even if they are in the spirit of Christ, are a good thing, I cannot deny you that, but one must not confuse what is done and said with what is to be believed and acted. The Scriptures say that Christ, from his heavenly throne, is calling us all to Him. Try and understand that the only way by which we see Christ’s luminous face is by kneeling first in front of His cross. “Life on earth is a perpetual fight.” (Job, 8.1, liberal translation), and there is not a great deal of time to stop and smell the roses. If you are truly set on saving yourself, then brace yourself for a struggle, because this is how redemption is won: “Large is the door and broad is the path that leads to perdition and narrow is the way that takes you to life.” (Matthew, liberal translation)
What exactly are you after in this tiny logic-void existence , Mr Dekeneu ? Is it happiness, comfort, or spiritual and moral relief ? Is it love, maybe ?..
Well you won’t find these here, sir. Eavesdrop on the cries of suffering that billow like waves of desperation, clogging the rigs of history time after time - this is what the world has to offer us. “[And] we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.” (1 John, 5.19), in empty lust, in crime and evil. What is there to look after in the world, then ? Help, consolation, truth ?..
Which brings us to the next issue:
Wrong. Please concentrate, Mr Dekeneu because here you seem to confuse cause for effect. As I believe, your take is that being a Christian is a condition that stems out of the healthy interactions with fellow people, which is to my mind an upside-down version. You remind me here of Hume, who reckoned that the ability for us to think causality as a category of our intelect is a direct result of habit, theory which Kant opposed later stating that causality is a prioric to any perception. I would draw a parallel in our case, with the conditions to be met in order to be a good Christian. You see, after Metanoia kicks in, faith in its dynamic, constantly renewing form, becomes the a prioric form which only after is given sense and direction through the life which one leads, and not the other way around. So to say, faith without deeds is dead, while deeds without faith are blind. Faith however, no matter in what degree tutored, nourished, upheld, will eventually need an introverted act of assumed bravery, and, with a sprinkle of Holy Spirit, might lead to a spiritual rebirth.
I fail to see why, in all this, you emphasise mutual relations in the heart of a community so much. Given that the decision to follow Christ is such an intimate one, why limit its connexion to only the collective concordance. I’d say that a harmonious life among people is at best a direct result of
the inner transformation that the love for God has made upon you, an effect in this case, but it is not what holds the concept of Christianity together, that is a cause. Hath thou forgotten that Christ demands that one should forsake his parents and brethren in order to become a true follower ?.. Have not the saints and fathers of our Church sought refuge from the world, and suffered in solitude in order to achieve to a higher state of excellence ? Anyway, I will supplement my opinion with some fragments from “The Imitation of Christ”, to illustrate better what I mean:
"[i]If thou withdraw thyself from trifling conversation and idle goings
about, as well as from novelties and gossip, thou shalt find thy
time sufficient and apt for good meditation. The greatest saints
used to avoid as far as they could the company of men, and chose
to live in secret with God.
One hath said, “As oft as I have gone among men, so oft have I
returned less a man.” This is what we often experience when we
have been long time in conversation. For it is easier to be
altogether silent than it is not to exceed in word. It is easier
to remain hidden at home than to keep sufficient guard upon
thyself out of doors. He, therefore, that seeketh to reach that
which is hidden and spiritual, must go with Jesus “apart from the
multitude.” No man safely goeth abroad who loveth not to rest at
home. No man safely talketh but he who loveth to hold his peace.
No man safely ruleth but he who loveth to be subject. No man
safely commandeth but he who loveth to obey.[…]
In silence and quiet the devout soul goeth forward and
learneth the hidden things of the Scriptures. Therein findeth
she a fountain of tears, wherein to wash and cleanse herself each
night, that she may grow the more dear to her Maker as she
dwelleth the further from all worldly distraction. To him who
withdraweth himself from his acquaintance and friends God with
his holy angels will draw nigh.[/i] " (Chapter XX, First part)
You get the idea…
Christianity has always been in danger of losing its composure, and now more than ever. Affirming that <<“Religion/Christianity can be fun” touches the intimate nature of Christianity>> is precisely what I’m referring to. I repeat, I am not against fun, but I am against multiplying its importance in a world that is already pretty much screwed up. You cannot sprout with your tedious smile, and proclame universal jauntiness, erasing the importance of penitence and humiliation, caring less that our sinful nature obnubilates our capacity to ever really find happiness in earthly pleasures. I won’t let you.
Far from me to let loose my emotions on the internet.
I hope that the chromatics of my speech have not offended your delicate ears. Apparently they are not accustomed to elfish talk. I do hope, though, that you take upon yourself the burden of thinking things more in detail, and not just hand them over as you received them from others . Being a Christian is a more pain-staking task than you think.
This touches the question of humor as the ability not to take ourselves and our failures seriously creating more psychological blockage but instead to take the teaching seriously. As usual we do things exactly the opposite where we take our self importance seriously and the teaching only so when it flatters our self importance or offers consolation.
I find what passes in these times as religious “fun” as just naive while the real humor in moderation directed at our own hypcrisy that religious introspectiuon reveals can be psychologically very revealing and helpful for self knowledge in a genuine deep warm sort of way which appears precisely why it is so rare. It’s just not with the times where the put-down rules supreme…
Calling me a hypocrite and throwing some paradoxical wisecracks doesn’t change a thing, Nick. There is a time for laughing and a time for smiling at ironies. There is a time for making ironies, but there is also a time when being serious gives you a litle authority.
I agree that there is a time for seriousness as it relates to the teaching. I wasn’t speaking of your hypocrisy but of my own. I am like Paul’s wretched man where I can say one thing and do another and I can admit it.
One of the purposes of humor in moderation is that it helps prevent a type of emotional constipation from taking oneself to seriously. I’m speaking for myself now and nothing is directed at you in particular. Humor is like good scotch which is beneficial at two shots. The trouble is that few can stop at two shots.
Oh, yes, now I understand what you’re saying, and I agree - a little linguistic spice gives a discussion the flavour it needs to make it eatable. I am against turning Christianity into a pretext for some sort of any other ordinary leisure activity, but some intelectual fun in moderate amounts always comes in handy. Sorry for the former constipated response…
The idea is, anyway, that existence, as it is, is a pile of dung. Christ urges us to grow a rose out of it.It may be impossible, but not by the other-worldly, Christian reason.