I’ve recently been reading St. Anselm Proslogium on the Ontological proof of God. This essay is considered by alot to be one of the best arguments for the proof of God. I would like to become more objective by hearing a logical opposition to this argument. If you have not read it, then I would advise you, or anyone else who has not done so, to read it. Anyone who has read this and has an objection or any thoughts at all is welcomed to provide imput.
Anselm began with the premise that God is a perfect Being. He is all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving, all-wise, infinite, immutable (or changeless), timeless, etc. In other words, He has all of the qualities that one would expect of a perfect being. All of the properties that you can imagine a being having, He has, to a perfect degree.
Next, Anselm went on to point out that existence is a form of perfection. A thing which exists, is more perfect than something that is purely imaginary.
Logically, therefore, since God is a perfect being, and has all of the qualities one would expect of a perfect being, then He must have existence, since He would be less than perfect, if He did not.
Hence, Anselm’s conclusion: if we imagine that God is the most perfect Being possible, then — by definition — He must exist!
Here is why it fails. As noted by Immanuel Kant, the second premise is flawed. That existance is a form of perfection is nothing more than a value judgement.
But even if all the premises were solid, we are left with a proof that could also be used to prove the existance or the perfect island, the perfect horse (unicorns), a pretty much infinite progression of ‘perfect’ things.
I think it is fundementally eroneous to prove the existence of God. Firstly, if God didn’t exist, then it would be difficult to prove that He did. Secondly, if God does exist, it seems a recurring theme in most theistic religions that it is a neccesity to have faith, that is, it seems to be a requirement of God. Now, if we assume that God exists and is all powerful and all knowing, then it seems to me that he would have ensured that the universe (and humans) He created could not be certain about His existence, therefore introducing the need in his followers to have faith.
I’m fairly sure the church saw things that way as well as they excommunicated Anselm shortly after.
Great work by Anselm. I discuss it a little here:
symposia.ilovephilosophy.com/lau … gument.htm
some crit here:
‘If it’s too good to be true, it probably is’?
‘If it’s too good to be true, then it’s Dan’!
When I die my spirit self will return to heaven and will take the place of Christ, and all power will be givin me. I will get so high off of this heavenly power that I will forget how the hell to use it and I will burn out.
^
Prove me wrong!
A human claiming that God is what he thinks he is, is just as great a claim as a human claiming to be God.
Yo, Dr.S, seeing as I’m God, and I’m all-powerful and all-loving, here is what I’m gunnu do, you un-Christian heathen! I’m gunnu use my super powers to help you out if you are having problems in your life, and I’ll cure your deseases if you got sick, but the deal is that you have to try not hurt anyone else anymore, and thats the only catch. No worship, no prayers, no sacrifice, no begging for forgiveness, none of that shit. All I ask is that you don’t hurt yourself or anyone else. Is it a deal?
Everybody, all togeather now: Is it a deal!?
I’m all powerful so I can talk to everyone and anyone that I want.
Is anyone feeling lonely? You need solutions and someone to talk to? I’m right here. Any time you feel alone, I will be there for you and be more help then any human can be.
I will fix the Ozone Layer, and bring back extinct animals. I will make the clear-cut-trees regrow. I’m gunnu burn that old-shit-of-a-bible because it makes me look like a complete bufoon.
[size=167]Everybody, Is it a deal!?[/size]
Heathens and homos are even welcome, if you have problems, I’ve got answers! It’s free-free-freee!
The Ontogical argument is part of a family of theological arguments to give reasonable credibility for the existence of God. The aforementioned arguments are not to be employed alone. The family includes, the Ontological, Cosmological, which has several sub arguments, teleological, made famous by Paley, and the moral argument. It is not the purpose of the arguments to prove God, because the nature of proof is too rigid, but it is designed to buttress the theistic belief postion. Of course many people dismiss these arguments out of hand, so these arguments are not for them.
I have discovered that the vast majority of people who have a non-belief in God use the problem of evil argument. to support their non-belief. From philosophical perspective the problem of evil appears imposing, but it really isn’t. First, because the problem of evil is not a philosophical argument, but a rejection of biblical teaching. Second, people fail to realize or perhaps just ignore that evil was not conceived by God, He does allow it, to demonstrate how self-destructive it ends up being. Third, it was mankind that allowed evil into the world, not God. God will one day irradicate it, but not until His purposes are accomplishecd.
Meno,
could you please simplify, I cannot understand what you are saying, the big words, are blinding me. 
Please excuse my ignorance. 
Hey Dan…I could get used to that deal I think… =D>
Sorry, I am working on a B.A. in degree in Philosophy, then a PhD. Anyway, If it was the terms for the theological arguments, I will gladly clarify. The Ontological argument is the argument from Being, the argument proceeds, if man can conceive of a perfect being, then there must be a God. The Cosmological argument, is the argument from cause and effect. The universe is an effect, logically the cause must be greater than the effect. God is greater than the universe, therefore God is the cause. Some of the sub arguments(and this is not exhaustive) Aquainas’ sufficient cause for movement(Aristotle’s argument for why the universe has movement), the uncaused cause; the necessary/contingent, God being the necessary being, and creation being contingent(dependent), degrees of perfection(this is an aspect of Platonic influence). Leibniz had a version, that states this is the best of all possible worlds. The Kalaam cosmological argument has been receiving some attention from Christian philosophers recently is also somewhat complex. The Teleological argument, is the argument from design, which was critized by David Hume. States that a complex and organized universe is a result of an intelligent being, God. The moral argument which was one of Immanuel Kant’s favorites, states, that the reason human beings have an awareness of right and wrong point to a creator who instilled them in our consciuosness. I hope this helps, if not or you need more info, let me know.
Perhaps I’m wrong, but you sound a little presumptuous.(or maybe its a joke and I haven’t figured it out yet) First, where did you acquire the idea that you have the qualities of deity? Secondly, if deity is perfect,(of course approaching this from a biblical perspective, which seems to be your approach) why use language that is profane? Third, upon what do the foundations of the earth rest? That should be a cinch. Please in your infinite, unerring wisdom, explain what is a line, without using the word or related words in the definition, now please don’t cop out on me.(opps as a god coping out is absolutely unheard of, sorry) Fourth, here is an ethical question, if you could establish absolute peace and tranquility throughout the world forever, but as a sacrifice, allow one little innocent girl to be exquisitely tortured for all eternity , would you do it? Finally, if a tree fell in the forest, and no one was present to hear it, would it still make a sound? Remember, this is a philosophical question, don’t bring science into play.(of course you wouldn’t, I don’t think you would, would you? Maybe, I’m not sure if I could trust you. Oh, how silly of me, of course I can trust you, ummm. I don’t know. It going to take some work on your part to convince me. But I can’t help but wonder, maybe your just a substance, with lots of modes, nahh! You must be the Absolute, but post modernism doesn’t believe in absolutes, maybe your just a relative being who thinks he is god?
Dr. Satanical wrote:
i know this is out of place, but i couldn’t resist, What you say here already has a name. It is Plato’s theory of the Forms lol not sure if you’ve heard of it 
I’m getting the strong impression that you like Plato. Though I chose a name of one of Plato’s dialogues I also enjoy Aristotle, and I side with his version of Platonic forms. 
Life comes from life, in nature on earth. How can any intelligent being create matter or energy? What is ‘intelligence’? It is the ability to change and absorb information. This information is stored upon a medium. What is ‘God’ made of and were did he get his ‘intelligence’ from? Human ‘intelligence’ is from life experiance and natural instinct. Were did ‘God’ learn to create matter and energy from? The universe is inantimate, and it probably had an inanimate origin as well.
Auwh, don’t get me started about ‘perfection’. Things could have been made WAY better then they are, and at the same time the faithful say that the Creator is perfect AND say that it is not the Creators fault when the creation is imperfect? Well I guess if I screw up whilst drawing, it is the fault of the pencil, the page, or even the actual drawing that I made…
No, we develop our awareness of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ because of our awareness of others. Society is what invented the idea of ‘justice’ and ‘morality’. Morality is not inborn, but humans can be trained to do things. Soldiers can be trained to kill; doctors can be trained to cure. Morality is from training, not God, and morality stems from social/personal needs and our will to get what we need. It is not ‘immoral’ for humans to kill animals, even though animals have emotions and intelligence.
Not at all, the ‘Creator’ is indirectly responsible for more evil then humans ever were. ‘Evil’ is when human life is lost, and when pain and suffering are caused. When the telomere degrade per cell rep, degenerative desease begins, and humans slowly become sick and suffer and lose who they are. They each die because of the way that they were ‘created’. ‘God’ also ‘created’ viruses and parasites that can cause very painful illness and deaths. Humans try hard to stop or slow desease and old age but they did not have much technology for a long time and it was always a losing fight. They tried, but were not strong enough to stop it all, and the ‘Creator’ was [indirectly] responsible for it all. Desease and old age are the biggest killers, and wars have not killed many compared to other things killing peoplel.
If I saw someone physically assulting you, Meno, and I had the power to stop it, I would not. I would ‘allow the demonstration of how self-destructive it ends up being’, and not only that, but I would also expect you to love and pray to me. Wouldn’t that be nice? I, after all, would be all wise and in the right by allowing evil.’
…
No, that is too evil and too cold. I couldn’t. If you needed help and I could help you, I would help. This is just an argument of common sense. Some forms of common sense are destroyed by Christians-scared-stupid.
So, it’s basically all our fault and we have to always apolgize to ‘God’ and feel guilty and afraid? What do you REALLY mean by ‘allowed evil’?
If his “purpose” is to sit on his ass for billions of years doing absolutely nothing, then I doubt that he will be finished accomplishing this any time soon.
Is it really that complex of a deal that you ask someone wiser and more powerful then you for a solution, the recieve it if that powerful one is actually wise and powerful? God’s inactivity is a great disgrace to his name, and the 1000+ Christian denominations/sub-groups, each claiming to be absolutely right, yet different, are also a disgrace to ‘God’. If he wants us to ‘know’ him, then he should actually make himself known. If he is ‘all-might’ and ‘all-loving’, I don’t see why he would be so damned shy and emotionally repressed.
Lol, this thread is funny. I’m having a blast. You should all know that I am not taking you seriously.
I sort of am, and I like to talk to people, but my heavenly kingdom is funner.
I will only answer that once you have answered all of MY questions!
Wait, I was bluffing, I’m just as human as everyone else.
Good news: Dan is SANE.
‘Perfect’ means the proper amount to suite the situation. If the world is sinning, I wont teach them how to stop sinning and give them the strength to stop sinning, I will just ‘sacrafice’ my own son instead. [Note that killing people or animals and buring their blood / pouring in onto the ground, helps God be happy because he is all-loving!!! Aztex were better then the fuckin Jews!] If you don’t like that, then thats just too damned bad because I’m perfect and your not! You don’t have any right to question me. Why can’t I use profanity? Can’t I say ‘fuck’? I can kill people if I want to, so why the fuck can’t I be profane? Whos gunnu stop me? I’m ‘perfect’. God is the flyest ***** this side of west coast. All hail.
Ok, now I’m Alah. =)
My rhetoric now goes like this:
The time of the end is not nessisary for humans to know. I only tell them what is nessisary to know. I wont tell them why I made my laws, I wont teach them about science or medacine, I will just give a few orders and thats it. I did not feel like explaining the foundation of the earth in my holy book, becaus YOU didn’t need to know. Don’t question ‘God’, because he and his book are perfect.
Either that or its gravity from the sun… All depends on what you call ‘foundations’.
Ok, pray to me about that one. =)
And have strong faith, and then, if your faith is strong enough, the answers will come to you, but you have to believe that you are getting the answers. (lol)
[size=75][* Dan starts spanking his own butt with a large metal spoon ]
INFINITE HOLY WISDOM
[ Chiors start to sing *][/size]
Yes, in the same way that one man would be willing to die to save the lives of ten, how much more so one girl for the sake of whole world.
Yes, but sonic vibrations only travel so far.
Birds or rodents may hear it. Depends what animals are around.
Humans aren’t the only ones hearing and remembering things.
Since when were strait answers and facts a bad thing?
What kind of silly question is this anyway!?
If there is a ‘God’ or ‘gods’ then the bible does a shabby job at portraying them, or it has failed completely.
→
You need to trust me with your whole soul and your whole strength. Put faith in me and fully believe in me! After you die I will resurect you. I have also created the entire universe. lol. Some day, not that I’m going to tell, but someday I will come and kill all of the sinners who aren’t worshiping me.
^
When some terd claims all of that, who can prove them wrong?
Anyone can claim this God shit, and no one can get anything out of it!
Okay, this has been really fun, thanks again.
Have a great day!
A few more things just came to me:
If a human takes lead into their system, the body mastakes it for calcium and it is absorbed, then harms or kills the body.
This is an error, a “sin”. Was this internal error due to ‘Adam’ and ‘Eve’ eating from the tree of the knowlage of ‘good’ and ‘bad’?, or perhaps was it because of a system error that the body naturally had. A weakness, due to a fault in the design, that had nothing to do with free will and immorality? The ‘Creator’ is at fault in this case, like in so many other cases.
I was reading a lot about nanobots here also [future plans for nanobots], and realized again how much better even our cells could have been compared to how they are. Once humanity reverse engineers and inhances the body in drastic ways [which includes relative immortality] it will be interesting to see how religions react.
If science out-does nature [within a human body], we will, in effect, be out smarting and doing better then ‘God’. Most Christians that I know have no faith in science at all, and they are very negative about science and civilization. Many think that we are doomed and things just keep on getting worse and worse with time. Some believe that Satan is in control of the governments. They are… psycotic and anti-national… they think that they are right and that the whole world/scientific community is wrong.
Hi Dan, interesting reply, though it should be come as no surprise that I take issue with several of your replies.
First, How can an intelligent being create matter? That begs the question, could anything unintelligent create matter? Matter is not eternal and requires some greater cause. Nothing can not produce something, just as life cannot arise out of non-life(abiogenesis)
Second, what is intelligence? It is the facultyof the human mind to gather, correlate, analyze and synthesize information and store it for future use.
Third, where did God get His intelligence, I believe it is part of His being, He didn’t acquire it, He is the source of intelligence.
Fourth, what is God made of? Actually I don’t have a clue. If we approach from a biblical perspective, God is a spirit, and a characteristic of a spirit is incoporeal.
Fifth, where did God “learn” to create matter and energy. God didn’t have to learn. Refer to the third point.
Sixth, The Universe is inanimate? How would you know? To make that sort of an assertion requires universal knowledge, which we mortals lack.
Seventh, Perfect how would you make it? How would I know, I’m not perfect.
Eighth, Right and wrong are not human ideas. They are innate(I’m sure John Locke would take issue with that.) we base our laws on the innateness of this knowledge. I am aware this is an inconclusive argument, but it is too lengthy to pursue.
Ninth, if someone assaulted me, he would lose. I have a Blackbelt in Tae Kwon Do and judo.
Tenth, God didn’t create evil, we brought it into the world by disobeying God’s one command.
Lastly, you didn’t answer my question about the tree in forest philosophically(bad boy)you answered it scientifically(very bad boy)
Well, I know I haven’t answered everything, but we are having the kitchen floor ripped up today is a little distracting, in addition, if I don’t reply, it is because the living room carpet is being replaced and I have to disconnect my computer tomorrow. Until then.
Meno, as a follower of the newly constucted Church of Dan I must advise you to be more polite to his Lordlyness or you will be ‘Danned’ for all eternity! 
Apart from that, matter is kind of eternal if you know you science, as matter is energy and energy is neither made not destroyed, only converted and transfered.
You say God didn’t create evil but he did create everything?
I don’t know, but does it actually say that God is perfect in the Bible or did that conception come about because people were too scared to consider that God may have an imperfection lest that be blasphemous.
And apart from that, why are you trying to tell Dan how he made the universe?
Hi, Mentat, Thanks for the warning 
I am aware of the Law of Conservation, in light of my conversation with Dan, I was making a different
He was asking how God learned to create matter and energy. God created everything, but evil originates with Luicfer, who was created by God, but by his own volition rebelled against God. God is Holy, holiness carries with it the meaning of perfection. I was telling Dan how He made the universe, because I espied some flaws in it. I was going to tell him how to make some improvements.
Yes, they are. Giving people pain is ‘wrong’ because it causes an awareness within their bodies that they are being damaged. They then react, and this tells us that they are being hurt. If they hurt us back, or if we are already taught compassion at childhood [which we naturally are], then we think that hurting people is ‘wrong’.
Humans still kill animals, animals have less intelligence, but are equally [and sometimes even more] capable of pain and pleasure. Some are even more capable of a will to live and be peaceful then we are.
Justice was made for the sake of civilization, so that a mass of humans could function as a united unit.
Justice and morality changes with time, and is relative to the species. Each species has it’s own moral ‘perfection’ for each reality or ecosystem/world. Dan knows this because he has been to other realities.
How dare you speak for Dan! 
Please allow me to corrent this little mastake.
Being ‘polite’ is only nessisary with fellow humans because of the fact that if the truine brain detects a threat or attack, it reacts with anger, fear or hate – all in self defence. When we are ‘rude’ to other people, they become afraid because they think that we do not love or respect them in the expected humane way. Unlike you humans, Dan has no need for ‘fear’ or ‘self-defence’. If you spent your entire life praying swear words to Dan, he would not be offended. He would try to help you not feel so offended/angery about him and his ways. 
Mentat Monkey, now that you have joined the ‘Church Of Dan’ (LOL!) you will get $0.50 off shake-and-bake, in heaven, and this is because you joined before you died. Those who hate the ‘Church Of Dan’ and die, will still be admitted in, and I will teach them how to not hate those who love them. =)
Also, girls get free Dan-brand glow-in-the-dark T-shirts + free pizzas!
Now that your a member, I firstly ask you to not waste any time or energy on ‘worshiping’ the great Dan, because Dan needs nothing. Use all of your spair energy to help yourself and others to have happier and healthier lives. Remember to try to understand the problems in your life instead of judging/hating them. I’m God and I don’t hate anybody, because I understand them and want to help them instead of judging them and wanting to kill them someday.
‘Evil’ is ‘harmful’ or ‘weakening’/‘degrading’. ‘Evil’ is ‘confusing’ and ‘blinding’. ‘Evil’ is when the good will fails and the good body causes badness. ‘Evil’ is when the one turns on the other and consumes it, instead of the two living in harmony.
^
And ‘God’ created life on earth? Why would he make all humans curruptable, suseptable to desease, willing to kill and being born stupid? Why did the creator make animals that killed eachother?
Why do animals consume plants instead of utalizing endo-atomic-energy-extraction? Why are central motivators of different species compedative and greedy? Dan has been reading a lot about organic reverse engineering, and he realizes that nothing on earth is even 1% as ‘good’ as it could be, and then the ‘creator’ is ‘perfect’?
home.entouch.net/dmd/prob.htm
All of the elements of reality and matter needed to be combined in a balanced and stable way, before there was this modern reality/universe there was a ‘quantum fabric’. It as pure, raw energy. I created a anti-physical tao-core that would bring energy togeather in a stable and balanced way, then placed with between all sorts of energies in all sorts of ways.
Also, about sexual immorality:
Humans don’t have a natural instinct in their brain that causes their body to take on a certian position before sex. For humans, interaction is very psycological, emotional and social. These factors effect and ‘mutate’ sexuality into ‘immorality’ sometimes. Humans are needy and imbalanced. They want to get what they need from were ever they can get it, and this reflects in sexuality. The fact that you can feel sexual attraction at all [ex: attraction to naked female parts] shows you that I can preprogram your brain so that you naturally are born to want/do something. I am sorry but I am a major league fuck-up and I really did a sloppy job of making humans. Sorry guys, but I’m baked. It is really gunnu take me some time to recover from my creative hang-over, but by the time I do recover you will have advanced so much technologically that you wont even need me anymore.
Wait, maybe life was not ‘created’? Why would some people be attracted to/have sex with animals? Well, you know, we are quite relative. We are mammals and have eyes, ears, sex organs… If we did evolve from one place, we would still be similar to each other. We could relate to one another and love one another, even though we were so different…
Read through that site that I have linked to.
‘Satan’ and the ‘demons’ were not our fault.
And when the people of Menocta were done ripping the floor of kishen, they then went on to say: “Ah, I have done fine work, from here on the day of Wednesday shall be a day for rest and a day of fine wine.” Now, Dan got to see, also, that the floor ripping was very good, and he sent down a jin to speak to the people. During the mid part of the day, during the shade of a coming evening, this jin did decend from the sky, and when the people got to see it, some went on to say: “I comet, a star has fallen from the sky!” and others keeped saying “A piece of the sun has fallen out” but as it got closer they began to see that it was in the shape of a man. The jin set foot in the center part of the town, and had stood upon the floor that been so rippithed eartlierith that dayith (ith, ith, ith!). So the people began to wonder and became silant as they watched in wonder, and the jin went on to speak: “Do not feel in your hearts that you are alone and unseen, for Dan well knows all that you are doing. Dan has seen your ripping up of the floors, and your tearing out of the carpet. Let it be known through out the lands and in all of the nations, that tuesday is the day of floor tearing, and it is a holy day. Those who do not tear out the floor on tuesday will me smitten by the Lord, and the Lord will bring sickness and blindness to that man’s children, and that mans penis will certianly rot away and shrivel, and that man’s wife will soon have weak and broken bones, for Dan is a righeous Dan, who is seeking to aniolate the wicked, and preserve the holy ones. Never is he to be mocked, for he sees all things with forgiveness.” And the people keeped on marveling at the jin, but it spoke again, and went on to say: “And the day after you have torn out the floor, this day is a holy day, even more holy then the first, and you must not touch a carpet on this day. This day will be a day in which all of the people of earth shall bless themselves, and they will certainly fart into the east wind with a loud voice! All of the peoples of the nations shall see that this is truly the day of Dan, and no one will be saying: ‘my carpet stands out like shit’, no person shall have to say: ‘my puppy doesn’t know how to poop outside’ because the fine ripping of floor has been done. This time is also when you must make melody to Dan, and you must spank the ass and the mule, and keep on screaming up into the air, [and say “woop”, not once, not twice, but three times] much like the three holy stooges who had come in my name from heaven!” And with that the jin fell, by mastake, into a mud puddle and was put out. And the people got to weeping, for the jin was no more, and they went on weeping for 40 days and 40 nights.
Pretty enlightening stuff, ay? 
Many pardons oh, lawks-a-lawdy! I mearly saw a opportunity for a awful pun, and as awful puns are the best kind it was too hard to resist!
Please don’t smite me! 
ALRIGHT!!!
That’s $0.50 more than value than the next leading brand of religion! But does that come with a free side of virgins if I’m Martyred with any regular purchase?
Phew Here I was about to send you my life’s savings! That was lucky! (for me)
You know, while the whole Dan being God thing was funny, his last post is a bit too… perfect. Maybe even not quite human… (spooky )