This is an issue to which I admit a certain amount of confusion. (Okay, maybe lots of confusion).
Emotions.
As spiritual beings do we embrace them, or rise above them?
Hi Jerry,
I guess I’d want know what you mean by spiritual being. In my view we are both spirit and being. My present understanding is that spirit transcends emotion. That which is being, and of mind, experiences emotion. As I understand the question, there is no feeling without thought, and no thought without feeling. I guess I’ll have to wait until I’m pure spirit and then report back. 
JT
Hi, JT. Yes, this is my view as well. And yet it is this very idea that is responsible I think for my confusion. We seem to regard our spiritualness as something special, something to move towards, an exalted state, a state somehow above and beyond our humanness. We embrace it. We seek to become one with it. Our beingness becomes frustrated when we find ourselves separate from our spiritualness, and we smack ourselves on the forehead in disgust with ourselves because we just know better than to have raised our middle finger to the driver that just cut us off. But we raised it anyway.
But…as earthly beings, what are we without our humanness?
What is experience, really, without emotion?
Hi Jerry,
My first impulse was to say damned if I know. I’m not sure I shouldn’t just stay with that.
The problem with that is, that occasionally, in moments of deep meditation (very rare) I have experienced what is called “oneness” A state of being where spirit and being merge and there is no distinction. In my tangled tongue way, all I can say is that in this state I am aware of everything being within me ane me being within everything - only there is no me. In this state there is no emotion (at least in the human sense), there is simply awareness, understanding, and acceptance. Forgive me for sounding ethereal, but I have no adequate words for this.
Some say that this state of being is capable of being maintained, but if it is, I have failed, each and every time.
If you haven’t fallen asleep or developed a nose bleed…
Taoists and other eastern philosophies and religions suggest that we are part of the field of all existence, and what we ‘see’ as ourselves is but a persistent focus or particularness from that field. All that is human, all the ‘ten thousand things’, are manifestations that arise from the field of existence.
Have I lost you yet?
There is the de of heaven, (the field) and the de of man, (a unique focus or manifestation of the field) In our humaness, feeling is impossible to escape, just as our mind is always ‘on’. The question is, can we transcend our humaness and enter that state of being that is detached from both emotion and mind? Some will say yes, others say no. There are many who will be more than happy to give you the road map or the formula, or the ancient secrets, or… you get the picture.
So finally, my only honest answer is I don’t ‘know’ in any way that I could share with you. My personal experience says yes, but with absolutely no way to convey that to anyone. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. But I have faith in my experience and that has to be enough. Ultimately our spirituality, what is is or isn’t, becomes a solo journey of a lifetime of experiences in which thinking and feeling are our window on existence. Can we move ‘beyond’ ourselves? Well…
WARNING: This has been an expression of personal opinion and should not be seen as a recommendation of any particular point of view.
JT
Hi Jerry
If we are not spiritual beings, do we have a choice? This is where sincere attempts to know thyself become valuable. The following is just my own conclusions based on my own experiences so there’s no sense taking up a collection. 
The whole idea of Christian re-birth is based upon the transformation of suffering or the ability to transcend the unreal that lives our life through the power of imagination and unfounded fears.
Animal emotions are natural for us and we are born with them. They serve their purpose and there is no need not to embrace them. Have you witnessed a dog’s love or loyalty? Is there anything essentially bad about it that denies a higher quality of emotion that allows for the profound emotional experience of objective “meaning?”
I believe that our problem is that our lives are primarily lived in artificially acquired or learned negative emotional states. They have become so dominant that they are seen as normal. They manifest most commonly as expressions of false pride and or vanity. The first step is to begin to distinguish between an animal emotion natural for our being and one we are born with and an artificially created one that denies humanity its conscious evolution, spiritual potential, and participation in higher cosmic purpose.
Christian re-birth requires the voluntary sacrifice by the open impartial objective experience and transformation of these negative emotions through the help of the spirit so that we become able to experience emotions of the “spirit” that I’ve learned to call “feelings.”
When a void is created in our psych, either intentionally or accidentally, by the absence of these acquired negative emotions that normally fill this void, this absence invites a higher spiritual energy that opens up parts of our psych that are normally dormant due to the dominance of these unnatural negative emotions usually associated with an aspect of false pride and/or vanity.
I do believe that the real man that has reconciled the natures of spirit and earth in his own presence will have allowed the reliance on and dominance of the unreal manifesting as the emotional expressions of false pride and vanity to die from exposure to the inner light. In this way we die to ourselves.
So I would rephrase your question to say that as beings with spiritual callings, how can we begin to discriminate between the differing qualities of emotion so as to gradually separate the wheat from the tares within? This separation and creation of this “void” will invite the spirit to allow us to experience “feelings” and the normal relationship between the animal emotion as subordinate to feelings will, I believe, become natural.
Hi, JT. No you haven’t lost me at all. We all have our meditative moment experiences. Moments when we feel as though we have somehow touched God…touched the soul of the universe. I can’t say for my part that this was done without feeling emotion. Far from it actually.
This state of yours where being and spirit merge sounds more like a takeover than a merger. Again, I am compelled to wonder at what the experience of being is absent emotion. I know these experiences are difficult to convey. Let me ask it like this:
Could you maintain this state, would you? Would you for a lifetime? Would you willingly live without your humanness, “detached from both emotion and mind,†without, that is to say, the manifestations? Can these really be separated and, if so, should they be?
Hi Nick. I agree wholeheartedly in theory. Yes, better for one to learn to distinguish positive from negative emotions.
Yet, these are not so easily distinguished. There’s a spectrum of emotions, a gradation, nothing so easily classified, I don’t think, into simple “negative†and “positive†categories.
Somebody you love and respect says something hurtful to you. You’re hurt. Your pride has been wounded. Spiritually you wish to rise above something so pedestrian as pride. But it’s more than that, it seems to me. The hurt also comes from the love. What is the love without the hurt?
This is no easy task, Nick. This is playing pick-up-sticks with one’s arsenal of emotions. Pull the wrong one out, and they all come crashing down.
Hi Jerry,
Interesting that you ask…
Our spiritual nature…let’s call it our True Nature manifests in the world as great virtue (We cannot see it or touch it or taste it but we can observe it’s actions). Our emotional life is part of our human nature which we align with our True Nature so that in the end, we are One. Who is the master and who is the servant? Consider being in the midst of emotional turmoil. There is no way that you cannot feel the joy or the sorrow. It is your very nature to feel these things. What is key though is that you do not become attached to these emotions, that you centre yourself in Truth. Centred in Truth, your mind is clear and you are able to respond appropriately.
Imagine you were on a boat on rough seas. The seas represent our emotional life (continuously changing). Imagine that the boat is anchored in your True nature. The boat moves this way and that, it is taken with the currents of life, but ever anchored. Anchored in Truth. It is not that you do not feel, it is that you feel while remaining centred and still and calm. Our emotional life is our teacher, a challenge to learn to be balanced.
Joy and Sorrow
Your joy is your sorrow unmasked.
And the selfsame well from which your laughter rises was oftentimes filled with your tears.
And how else can it be?
The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain.
Is not the cup that hold your wine the very cup that was burned in the potter’s oven?
And is not the lute that soothes your spirit, the very wood that was hollowed with knives?
When you are joyous, look deep into your heart and you shall find it is only that which has given you sorrow that is giving you joy.
When you are sorrowful look again in your heart, and you shall see that in truth you are weeping for that which has been your delight.
Some of you say, ‘Joy is greater than sorrow,’ and others say, ‘Nay, sorrow is the greater.’
But I say unto you, they are inseparable.
Together they come, and when one sits alone with you at your board, remember that the other is asleep upon your bed.
Verily you are suspended like scales between your sorrow and your joy.
Only when you are empty are you at standstill and balanced.
When the treasure-keeper lifts you to weigh his gold and his silver, needs must your joy or your sorrow rise or fall.
- Kahlil Gibran
A
transcend the bad, embrace the good. how to tell which is which?
theres defientely no reason to not embrace the love that a dog has, but thats because that particular emotion feels good. my dog is scared out of his mind when people walk by in front of the house, thats something i definetely dont want, it feels bad. it is essentially bad because it is pain that happens and that accomplishes nothing. jumping up and down when your owner comes home for the millionth time may also accomplish nothing, but its not pain, it feels good, and this intrinsic goodness is an accomplishment in itself.
that is why we should hold on to SOME emotions (one actually), because the actual experience of the motion ITSELF is good. happiness is the only one i can think of that ONLY feels good. pride is close, because it feels good for you, but it almost always neccesarily makes someone else feel bad for themselves. so i try to keep it to myself, even though that doesnt feel as good for me. (especially while here on ILP)
i think you can classify them pretty easily. fear and anger (which are somewhat the same and caused the same?) and so much pride that you arent as nice to people as you should be. those are always negative, unless they obtain some rational goal, in which case, you ought to be smart enough to recreate their effects for those purposes (risk management, scaring subordinates into submission etc) without the uncontrollable brain spasms.
and then theres happiness, which is entirely different from those other emotions. i feel like the other emotions are little monsters who jump into my brain and kick it in various places, where happiness is a few women who have sex with it. the only way that the other emotions are tied to happiness is when they are gotten rid of. when i am afraid and then not, or angry and then not, that makes me happy; the fact that the little monsters have left me alone. (i dont think that means that they are neccesary for the existence of happiness as the old mind-blower goes, they just occasionally contribute)
when this happened to me, i may have emotionally jumped the gun and realized it was indicative of a greater pattern, the discovery of which led me to no longer love her. either the emotions negatively affected me, or they caused an otherwise rational, wise decision. i dont know, i actually cant say ive continued to love someone for more than a few days of contemplation or so after this has happened. either my emotions are physically disabled or subdued for some reason (im beginning to think this is true), or i just dont have the experience.
Hi Angel,
I like the way you speak, LiquidAngel. And I like your reasoning.
Hi JT
I admire the fact that you have faith in what you have experienced. So many people have so little trust in their subjective experience. Something I can work on.
A question though, you say you don’t know, but will you ever know? Will you ever be able to express it, or is it just something that you can only speculate and/or tell other people about?
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Hi Jerry,
The words keep getting in the way… It isn’t a takeover. Quite the opposite. It is a letting go. In this state your questions have no meaning because there is no ‘me’ to answer them. Can such a state be maintained? Again I don’t know. I suspect not because the corporeal body will at some point need food and water, or to go take a pee. Body awareness and the boundaries of body once again summon ‘me’. Does this make sense?
Getting past this, there is an understanding that can be pursued and attained. If one can grasp the understanding that mind/emotion/ ego are illusions of duality, then thinking and feeling remain, but one becomes detatched from them. One continues to experience life in all its’ fullness with awareness of the spontaneity and novelty of each new experience. One knows what one needs to know(thinking) and feels what one needs to feel(emotion) in the interaction of this experience. There is no “I” (observer), there is only the experiencing. Awareness, thinking, and feeling are there, but “I” has evaporated.
Consider: There is something that you like to do. You like it so much than when you are doing it, you lose awareness that you are thinking about what your doing, you lose track of time, and while it may feel pleasant, there is no definition of any particular emotion. You lose awareness that there is any "you’ doing anything. It simply becomes doing. What has happened is the loss of duality. You haven’t given up mind, emotion, or self. They simply have no relevance. Does that help?
Emotions are reflections after the fact, (duality) they are not the same thing as emoting. Just the same can be said for thinking. Thinking is our natural state, but thinking about thinking is duality.
abowloforanges,
Perhaps a misunderstanding. I know, but only for myself. I could throw words at it all day long, and while you might be able to discern that something has occurred, you won’t “know” my experience. Those things that are my experiences and my truths are mine alone. At best my words can point, but they wait for your experiences and truths to confirm.
JT
Liquidangel,
I rather like the boat analogy. For some reason that resonates with me…
Thank you for “Joy and Sorrow.†Beautiful. They are indeed inseparable. That’s the deal.
But I am wondering something which maybe I can illustrate with an analogy of my own. I am thinking that when one sits back, detached and objective, centered, as it were, and considers a funny joke, the joke loses its humorous appeal. Experiencing the joke, hearing it, lost in the joke, one laughs. Recognizing that it’s a joke and is supposed to be funny, seeing it in a more detached and objective way, one loses somehow the “gut†reaction that made the joke funny in the first place.
And I am wondering if the same thing happens with both joy and sorrow, if we are anchored in such a way so as joy (or sorrow) is not able to “sweep†us away, if we are actually able to in some sense be still and see joy (or sorrow), and be unable to lose ourselves – really lose ourselves - in the joy (or the sorrow). Do we lose something of the experience?
an important part of a joke is the surprise connection drawn between things in a way that is not a normal part of speech. this surprise is not so present once you start contemplating it meditatively. while i have no clue what this meditation is that tentative is talking about (i know ‘of’ it, i suppose), im going to quickly interject and suggest that this isnt what she was referring to.
No not at all. But you have to ask yourself what about the experience do you need to hold onto that is so great. In fact the experience must be deepened so that we understand its purpose no?
A
I think it’s the timing that is of interest to me now.
Asking myself about the experience, deepening it, understanding its purpose, all sound like things I am going to do after I feel the emotion of it all. Sifting through the emotional debris in search of life lessons. Becoming detached so as to become more aware. This I understand. But what are we to do – indeed can we do anything of this sort – while the emotions are raining down upon us and still feel the emotions? Is simultaneous understanding - and experience of emotion, true experience – possible? Can the humanness of our emotional experience and the spiritual understanding of it, come together at the same time? Should it?
Am I making any sense?
I am saying that, for me, experience precedes understanding. Anything I do to circumvent this results in denial of emotion, or a kind of rushing through it all, to get to the damn lesson, you know? And yet, I have this feeling that if I were truly spiritual, I would be able to absorb all of it at once. Experience and understanding. I cannot do this. This either frustrates me and I lose patience with myself, or I realize that understanding just simply cannot (and should not) take place until the emotions have been truly felt. (Depending on what kind of day I’m having and how much slack I am willing to give myself for being human).
Jerry,
It’s a process. At first you reflect on the experience. Enter self-reflection. With self-reflection you reflect on the experience, you ask questions, what could you have done differently, how could you have applied your knowledge to have been more beneficial, not just for you but for the other person too. You reflect until you pinpoint what you could have done differently. Then, when the opportunity comes round again, and you know it does, you apply your understanding. One can grasp the Principle intellectually, but to truly understand the process and the experience one has to put it into practice. One has to be practical. One has to use one’s mind to practice. It takes time.
In the meantime you focus on your True Nature as much as you can. You focus on various methods that keep your attention in your centre so that in any given moment your mind is trained on your True Nature.
What is truly needed is an anchor Jerry. A certain meditation in action. So while you go through your experences, you are simultaneously meditating. So your awareness of the experience must come from your True Nature. You must be anchored in your True Nature. Your emphasis must be on the Holy with the mundane coming in second.
And then one day your understanding fits with your actions. And everthing fits together. There is an alignment. No longer are you focused on the mundane in the way that you used to be, you are now focused on the Holy and everything changes. Your perception has shifted, you have penetrated. And life continues. Nothing has changed except your awareness. Now you are aware inside your mundane reality.
Before enlightenment, chopping wood carrying water, after enlightenment, chopping wood carrying water.
But this is the life of one who wishes to attain. Knowing this you understand that your life will be forever different.
A
Yes, it’s a process, Angel. And I don’t think I disagree with a word you have written. Only to add that at least in my experience the process is one that goes on, perhaps, I am thinking for one’s lifetime. One doesn’t “arrive†at awareness one day like a final destination. Yes, there is a day when your understanding fits your actions, but this is not a static place. One uses one’s mind to practice, as you say, but the practice never stops. I like your anchor idea, but there are times when we all break loose from our moorings, and pitch and roll and head towards the rocks. We feel anger when we ought to have a better understanding of its source. We feel hurt without empathizing. We remember the lessons after the moment has come and gone. And we forget to see the profundity in the ordinary, until something happens that reminds us.
So you’ve answered your own question then.
A
With a little help from a friend, yes.
For now.
It’s a process, you know.
A