What can be said about a religious culture that finds itself incapable of encompassing all that man can think and say without shouting “Death to Denmark”?
Is spirituality to be forever chained to religion? If I were atheist, I would be smiling now. This extreme irrationality makes all of religion questionable to the inquiring mind. Where do the disaffected look for support of their spirituality? To religion? Why would they want to do that?
JT
This is exactly why we will see religion fail, and possibly spirituality also. The problem that isn’t recognized is that the largest part of the Muslim belief is linked with Islam.
Islam is the desicated zombie corpse of what was once Sufiism. Unfortunately, Sufiism didn’t convert enough people and didn’t make for a good political vehicle or disparaging the rights of women and children. So it had to be “overcome”.
The problem isn’t so much “religion”, it’s humans. As much as we dislike and abhor the virus, we are truly no different.
Fulla, the arab version of “barbie” was marketed in France very successfully until recently- Fulla is veiled therefore projects herself as a muslim. And France doesn’t want to have anything to do with religious associations with anything it markets for that matter. Maybe France is just not ready for a ‘muslim’ doll right now because of the current atmosphere of ‘islamophobia’. Similarly maybe it wasn’t the right time for Denmark to publish anything about the Prophet of Islam, considering the current wave of discord between the muslims and the rest of the world…
Spirituality is relative to human life force/will. It’s like understanding something bigger and better then you – and then ‘being’ in line with it. I promote individual spirituality. Even when people stay away from all religion and occult – they can still become ‘spiritual’ – all that they need to do is just find something really special and hold onto it!
I fear Harris may be right about a tide of attacks…and that the cartoon was literally the straw that broke the camel’s back.
I also have been thinking of lately, does one truly need religion to find meaning? Every religion has at least an ounce of ir-rationality to it…
Even believing in a “spirit” is irrational. The mind contains every bit of consciousness… so, what use would a spirit have in the grand scheme of our consciousness?
Let me just present an article I found on the web that i feel is most in tune with my feelings on the subject, feel free to criticise as if it were my own.
The rest of this article with other viewpoints can be found at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4676632.stm
Jon F
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I think we may be forgetting the importance of free speech amongst all the threats. Some say they shouldn’t get so upset at a cartoon. Some say you shouldn’t throw stones at a retard, or he’ll nut you with his helmet. Some say it’s not our problem. I think it really comes down to how philisophical a culture is, and why members of a religion are protective of it. Is it faith or is it fear of not appearing faithful?
Anyone protecting a religion using violence or threats is really doing their religion a disservice, and not just from a public image angle. Anyone who thinks their religion needs to be protected using brute force and fear must have no real faith in their religion to actually believe it could possibly be damaged by anything, let alone a pathetic cartoon.
Then again the reason is more likely that any idiot who finds themselves in front of a camera will naturally start jumping around and yelling popular yobbo slogans. Just as naturally the media will plaster said idiot across the globe and turn an anthill into a mountain… of shite. We are forgetting the importance of free speech. The media’s free speech.
“What can be said about a religious culture that finds itself incapable of encompassing all that man can think and say without shouting “Death to Denmark”?”
They think that all of us are just squatting on their land.
MM, a lie is a fabrication, some thing that a person creates, and when this religious lie is ‘attacked’ the fear and the anger arise.
If someone said “the earth is flat” it wouldn’t bother us much. If we were Islam and someone said: “Alah is a gay pussy that eats baby guts and kills children” we would be like: “AAAAAA!”
Maybe it all leads back to a persons ‘defence mechanisms’?
Humeirah,
Welcome to ILP!
Perhaps this is true, but when, exactly, would be the ‘right’ time? For those who choose religion and government as the same entity, there never will be a right time. I realize that lack of education contributes heavily to this problem, as does the willingness of some who use the issue to pursue their own agendas, but at some point, a religion has the responsibility to keep itself seperate and above the secular world. To do less is to invite backlash from those who choose to believe in other ways. Were the cartoons in bad taste? I think so, along with a whole bunch of other things I consider in bad taste. But should the world tippy-toe around the beliefs of any religious or other social grouping? I’ve got a problem with that. No matter how strong my convictions in any set of ideas or any religious affiliation, calling for the death of, is beyond the pale.
JT
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Thanks JT 
No doubt it was wrong to abuse the freedom of expression to denigrate holy religious personalities. But you will recall the additional cartoon published in the French newspaper that depicted several religious figures ( The Buddha, Jesus Christ etc) all sitting on the clouds and comforting the Prophet of Islam, telling him “Not to worry, because they have all ‘been there’ as well”. In other words, all actions should be viewed in their entity. For Denmark, it must be understood, caricaturising religious figures is common, usual, habitual.
Similarly, a few years ago, when I used to watch French Programmes ridiculing the Pope on Canal plus channel in a famous ‘animated puppet’ show, it used to surprise me that they had the audacity to do so about a religious figure.
My point is that I am sure long before the September 11 incident, many other comments and caricatures were made of islam and the Prophet in all kinds of newspapers, and never opposed as much. Right now, however, it is patent that muslims will respond to any form of opposition or contradiction to their beliefs. That’s because they are highly sensitive and rightfully so, in the light of the all the ever growing sentiment of Islamophobia in the world.
If you play with your pet and poke it on the sides, it might not get hurt. But if it is a wounded pet, you’ll be automatically careful and refrain from playing with it, because you know it will be sensitive to the slightest touch. That’s the difference: The time was just not right for Denmark to publish that. Muslims are still hurt.
If one looks long at things, one might come to the conclusion that we cannot know with absolute and undeniable certainty that “mind” is completely explained by physical brain.
While the correlation between consciousness and brain function is a matter of neuroscientific discovery, following Hume, we cannot know what sort of “cause” is behind the mind/body correlation…and we cannot know with undeniable certainty that…“that is all” in terms of the role of consciousness in the world.
After all, human life, as an example, is derived from a “warehouse” of physical matter and energy that permeates the universe, it seems a bit presumptuous and predujiced to suppose that consciousness MUST be contained only to the small arena of brain function.
Add to that the supposition that all we know is but a sensory VR approximation of objective reality. There are many conceivable states-of-affairs that could explain the world above and beyond the agnostic or atheistic…and the evidence would be INDISTINGUISHABLE.
But I suppose my argument can cut back in this direction as well…
Just some epistemological criticism from a theist.
Cheers,
Jay
Bottom line on this:
Threatening death over a cartoon shows just how out of touch with reality, relativity, perspective and purpose that area of the world is and ever will be.
When cartoon = molotov’s and MOAB’s, you need to … how did Dennis Miller put that, “Lean into the plate and take one for the team.”
At the bottom of this is the unwillingness of leadership to reform itself and see to the education of its’ followers. To continue allowing violence as the solution to whatever is deemed ‘wrong’ religiously is doomed to failure. I watched a news show last night and the point was made that the Middleast wants modernization, but not westernization. I’m not even sure what ‘westernization’ means, but modernization requires education - and the attendent ability to question - even question religious dogma. Sadly, much of the populace of Islam is woefully under-educated and it appears that its’ leadership is more than willing to allow this for its’ own purposes. Islam may eventually find a way to adapt itself to a modernized world, but the casualties will be high. The longer the mullahs try to live in the eighth century, the greater the division from the rest of the world, and the higher the death toll. All the cartoons have done (in bad taste or not) is to show just how far the Islamic religion must move - and the clock is ticking…
JT
grand exersize in irony
modernization of course is education in western thought…
the attendent ability to question… that is of course what they do in arabic…
question religious dogma, except the religious dogma of modern western “education” of course…
-Imp
No, it’s not that France isn’t ready, but that they are tired of that shit. France was under royal and religious tyranny for hundreds of years. They had to have a lot a killing to get past it and they don’t want a hint of that coming back.
edited
Ok, what does that mean to you?
Hi Imp,
I’m not sure that modernization requires a ‘Western’ education. But it does require a seperation of religion from governance. There are any number of cultures who provide good educations and the fact that they follow the basics precepts of teaching independent critical thinking doesn’t make them western. - that is of course, unless you wish to define modernization as uniquely a western phenomenom. At the moment, many Islamic countries are struggling with the issues of representative government while listening to the mullahs demanding shariah law (which they can control). I think the good 'ol red white and blue democracy crap ends at our shorelines, but modernization>education hinges on religion not standing in everyone’s light. Otherwise, we end up dealing with religious irrationality instead of political irrationality. At least we can occasionally do something about the political garbage…
JT