Disprooving the bible, totally. [johnny skeptic]

johnnyskeptic.com/#2

That essay is totally worthless.

HINT: The above took more effort than you posting a link did. What do you want?

EDIT: I’d be happy to talk about any religion issue you would like, but you’ll have to actually do your own talking. You know, with words, not copy pastes of other people’s chat logs, links to websites, or pictures of burning buildings.

Hello F(r)iends,

I am willing to argue any one claim at a time from Johnny boy…
I will claim that there are many problems with the assessments in that essay.

-Thirst

thirst4metal

“I am willing to argue any one claim at a time from Johnny boy…”

K

Why would God create any animals with a natural tendancy towards gay sex if God could program instinct that could control animals and also God was against homosexuality?

Farthermore, why would Jesus heal people from the viruses, parasites and bacteria that God created in the first place???

All-wise creation of all things on earth doesn’t add up with a perfection idealism.

[size=150]HUHAHAHAHAH![/size]
…hahahhaha… :laughing:

Hello F(r)iends,

Dan, your quote didn’t have an argument in the text. I don’t know what is being claimed. But I will attempt to answer your questions.

As far as I know, animals are not forbidden from multiple sex partners, or same-sex relations. Humans and animals are not allowed to have sex with each other and I think that the god of the bible separates between man and beast. Biblically speaking, there is an important distinction between them. One has choice, the other does not know choice.

Was god against homosexuality? Yes, and it is outlined in the Bible.

The Bible also outlines specifically how to eat, how to cook, when to wash, what is “clean”, what is “unclean”. Jesus would heal the sick but these were typically people born ill, blind, and those who became unclean.

Have you ever read the bible?

-Thirst

 Why even make this about animals, or about homosexuality? Stealing, murder, gluttony, animals engage in all these things, and God has condemned them in humankind.  There's nothing out of the oridinary at all about something that's wrong for humans occuring in nature. 

Because alleviating suffering is a Good thing, and one of the purposes of Jesus’ ministry was to set an example that the rest of us should follow.

You’re talking about animals & humans? And just what proof do you have that animals do not have choice/freewill? Many of them have less intelligence, which means less forsight, and less “choice”, but there still is choice, and the complexity of this choice depends on the intelligence of the specific animal.

Ever heard about the few apes that researchers taught sign language to?
Think about that. These animals were capable of language, thoughts, communication; yes, they can “choose”.

ex: Leprosy. And there are far more. Mr.All-wise & All-loving made tapeworms, flatwords, viruses, for what reason? Suffering is all that these parasites cause for life on earth.

Of course it was good to remove the evils that GOD MADE. He is quite all-wise to contradict his own loving and peaceful idealism. I didn’t ask if it was good or not, I asked all of you why a perfect and holy God could bother creating things that he was morally against.

I don’t think that you can logically answer even my first argument, but there are many more.

The “most holy over all the earth” is “perfect”?

ho·ly
Pronunciation: 'hO-lE
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): ho·li·er; -est
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hAlig; akin to Old English hAl whole – more at WHOLE
1 : exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness
2 : DIVINE <for the Lord our God is holy – Psalms 99:9 (Authorized Version)>
3 : devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity
4 a : having a divine quality b : venerated as or as if sacred

5 – used as an intensive <he was a holy terror when he drank – Thomas Wolfe> – often used in combination as a mild oath

  • ho·li·ly /-l&-lE/ adverb

per·fect
Pronunciation: 'p&r-fikt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English parfit, from Old French, from Latin perfectus, from past participle of perficere to carry out, perfect, from per- thoroughly + facere to make, do – more at DO
1 a : being entirely without fault or defect : FLAWLESS
b : satisfying all requirements : ACCURATE c : corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept d : faithfully reproducing the original; specifically : LETTER-PERFECT e : legally valid
2 : EXPERT, PROFICIENT
3 a : PURE, TOTAL b : lacking in no essential detail : COMPLETE c obsolete : SANE d : ABSOLUTE, UNEQUIVOCAL e : of an extreme kind : UNMITIGATED

4 obsolete : MATURE
5 : of, relating to, or constituting a verb form or verbal that expresses an action or state completed at the time of speaking or at a time spoken of
6 obsolete a : CERTAIN, SURE b : CONTENTED, SATISFIED
7 of a musical interval : belonging to the consonances unison, fourth, fifth, and octave which retain their character when inverted and when raised or lowered by a half step become augmented or diminished
8 a : sexually mature and fully differentiated
b : having both stamens and pistils in the same flower

If God was absolutely holy and absolutely perfect and absolutely all-wise, then he would have no excuse to do anything that was imperfect, stupid or impure. Why is all life on earth “imperfect”? Why did he create so many unholy things? Creating an unholy or imperfect thing – is an act of imperfection. “Missing the mark of perfection” is what biblical “sin” is, so God is now a “sinner” as well.

If the creator was perfect and then created perfect creation, there would not be imbalances, weaknesses, faults, stupidities, conflict or suffering.

[size=75]qwn[/size]

Hello F(r)iends,

Dan, you are all over the place:

If god gave man free will, then man would have the ability to reject perfection.

If man can reject perfection, then there can be less than perfect existence.

If god has a perfect plan and all things fell under this plan, there would be no imperfection.

Choice may have been a bad choice of words… Now:

  1. prove that animals have free will.
  2. Prove that they understand the difference between good and bad.
  3. Prove that they know the difference between right and wrong.
  4. Prove that they can create moral rules and break these moral rules.

Communication is not unique to humans and is not rare in animals. That we humans can learn to interpret their communication says something about us too, don’t you think… The only way we “teach” animals language is by first understanding their language (their own internal language). As far as I know, no chimp has ever approached a human and tried to teach a human language. Also, I think humans have a few traits that are either unique to humans or are very rare traits in animals. For example, as far as I can tell, a lion could never choose to become a vegetarian… Can a human being choose to go against its own nature? I think so. Can an animal? I am not sure.

By your logic, I could claim that because quantum physics has four forces (gravity, strong, weak, electromagnetic) without any “reason” for their existence that it is sufficient to undermine all of quantum physics. Hey, scientists have yet to “see” a gravitron and yet this does not prevent them from theorizing that it exists. Unexplained phenomena does not necessarily destroy a theory. Why? Because you are trying to use a lack of understanding in one thing as a basis to undermine an entire theory…

Where in the bible does it say that god is morally against tape worms or viruses? Don’t want a tape worm, then don’t eat pork (like god instructed). Don’t want cow disease, then eat kosher cows… etc. What things is god morally against? As far as I remember, god is morally against behavior and not things. Can you name a few things he is against where it is not the behavior that he prohibits?

You have some questions to answer and proofs to offer before we can proceed.

-Thirst

Dan~

What you asked, that I responded to, was why Jesus would heal the sick, and I answered. As to your new question- Why then did God create sickness, the obvious answer is that if God didn’t create sickness, Jesus would have had nothing to heal. You’ll want to think about that one a few minutes before responding.

 Of course there are. You could surf the web for 10 minutes, and come up with more questions than I could answer with 100 pages of typing. Through the magic of copy/paste, you can present arguments like a pro- by plagarizing the pros. Pat yourself in the back. 
And I could do the same to you. But I'll only participate as far as it's amusing, because we both know you aren't interested in learning anything, you're interested in attacking that which you don't like.

Please, “plagarize”. It is good to be well-informed about what you are talking about. It is good to have sources.

Really, your “attack” (attack isn’t the right word :smiley: ) on my “cutting & pasting” has nothing to do with the actual truth that I am talking about here, it is more of an attempt at undermining me personally?

So it’s no longer a matter of truth and reason? It’s a matter of life and dislike? Would you “like” the bible if it was false?
“I can’t show you what’s right because you don’t want to listen” sort of claims don’t just apply to me, they apply to you also.

Why only a minute? God giving us an immune system AND giving us a flue virus is self-contradiction.

A perfect IDer with a single perfect will – does not fit into infinite diversity having conflict and oposites.

Evolution makes more sense because it is cold and not premeditated. Any form of life on earth that focused on trying to find “God” instead of reproducing would be long-gone by now! All that matters down here is survival, reproduction, growth and advancement.

Uccisore
I will guess that you believe in something similar to what the Mormons believe, in that without evil there can be no good. God “had to” create both.

( source : strange-loops.com/athevil.html )

“Freewill” requires forsight. We think “hmmm, should I chose this?, or should I chose that?” And we judge. We look at the final outcome of each, and we try to make the best choice for our own personal values and goals. Human “freewill” is to complex to even really exist in animals; it requires far too much foresight, but they are still “free” in their small choices in life, because animal personalities are unique (ever had pets before?)

Some pet dogs can be immoral by choosing to run away and not obey you when you tell them what to do, whilst other sorts of pet dogs will be more loyal and obedient.

Society and our parents teach us our morals, which go against our “nature”. Animals can also be trianed to go against their nature.
A perfect example of this is the methods used by elephant trainers during the time when the elephant is still young.

I saw an elephant painting once on the news [in a zoo]. Though childish in its “art” – it showed us that animals can even create art.

ID and claims of a mind/personality of a God have their own little principals.

A planet in space that had gravity, and then a planet in space that had no gravity, would be an example of physics contradicting itself. This has not happened.

God creating evil, and claiming to be perfect/holy, does contradict itself.

Things? Do foreskins count as things?
(* Gets out a knife *)
Here, come feel some perfect laws and a covenant with the all-mighty, all-loving God.

If God is far more intelligent then us, then we will be far more reasonable then us, and he cannot be unreasonable.

Am I really so wrong here?

Hello F(r)iends,

Dan, I am going to warn you once and only once: Calm down, you are rambling like a maniac. Most of your last post was inconprehensible. Take it slow so we can both get something out of this otherwise we are going to get lost in the jumble and nothing will be accomplished. If you happen to forget this, you will lose my attention.

The removal of the foreskin is an act of obedience by the parents, and in a way represents the desire of the parents for their children to continue into a contract with the old covenant.

Now, if you would like to repost ONE issue at a time, we can continue our conversation.

-Thirst

God is a deciever!

Or is it that the creative genius of that of a writer, who gives God a life or a character in the story, which alienated the whole nation?

Hello F(r)iends,

Yes or no, do you still beat your dog?
In a court of law, I would claim you are making an “argumentative” question.
It appears that is what you are interested in… Goodbye.

-Thirst

If you don't resort to plagarism, then I am confident I have nothing to fear from 'all your arguments'. 
If I wanted to undermine you personally, then I'd sit back and say nothing at all. I'm trying to teach you something. 
 A contradiction of what? Giving us an immune system and giving us flu viruses aren't [i]statements[/i], so they can't contradict.  You must be trying to guess at God's aims. You're assuming that by creating the flu, God is striving to kill everybody, and by giving us an immune system, He's striving to make us all immortal. If that were the case, then yes, God would be working against himself.  If, however,  God's goal was for things to be just as they are- with people getting sick, and most of them getting better in time, then there wouldn't be a contradiction, would there?
 It certainly does, if confliction and opposition are part of what He wanted. If you wrote a book, would the hero never fail? If you designed a video game, would the players be in god-mode by default? All you have to accept is that [i]like all designers[/i], God views a certain level of strife as beneficial, and all these 'contradictions' melt away. 

Evolution makes more sense than what? I’m a theistic Christian who believes evolution happened. Makes more sense than the world suddenly appearing six thousand years ago fully formed? Yes, I would agree.

I don’t know about ‘had to’, but I see that He did, and I can respect some potential reasons why (which is not to say that I am in understanding of those reasons).

Look, I’m not going to waste much time arguing with your Cut & Paste- my finding is that if I refute it, you’ll just Copy/paste something twice as long, and soon I’m not debating you, I’m debating an army of PhD’s who’s ideas can be found through Google. I will say this:

Your copy paste doesn’t establish any contradiction with God and world anywhere, all it says is “It seems like He could have done it this way,” secondly, my views on the Problem of Evil don’t stem from ‘happiness’ it stems from good as virtue. In other words, yes God may have been able to create a world which contained more happiness than this one does. However, the greatest virtues (charity, mercy, self-sacrifice and justice) are impossible without poverty, transgression, and strife. Is a world in which we all the creatures enjoy peace and satisfaction, but never have anything to strive against and rise above better than this world? That’s a matter of taste, not contradiction.

:laughing:
That… was funny. :sunglasses:

Why give us a foreskin in the first place then? That practice counted as sexual mutilation/body modification – which is less-then-enlightened/pure.

“an act of obedience by the parents” – Obediance, without reason. [It was] Action, with no reason or logic other then “God said so”. Fear of God’s punishment and craving for God’s heaven caused the human mind to rationalize and defend the illogical and mundane commandments of an un-enlightened God, dreampt up by an un-enlightened mind.

Fear and craving are the only power that this false “God” ever had, or will have. Pray for him to prove me wrong.

:confused:
Gotta simplify…

God = “all-wise”
He tells parents to cut of a part of their babies penis,
not all-wise.

Fear of hell + thirst for heaven [and perhaps metal] = Bias judgment of God’s claims and commands.

But the bible does not say that God likes everything the way that it is, and it does not say that God wants everything to be the way that it is.

The flood is a perfect example of him destroying his own creation, after getting angery at his own creation.

Anger is stupid. [In preflood times] Instead of teaching everyone how to love eachother and bringing justice by [God personally] policing the earth – he just sat and did nothing as “all-hell-broke-loose”, then suddenly he got really mad and killed everything; this is sheer stupidity.

Getting sick – and then getting over the sickness – is suffering.

If God is all-wise, then he must know how to be very efficient in making his desires become a reality.

If God wanted us to have suffering – then he could have done this in a far more efficienty mannor – in which there was no need for a desease or an immune system.

If I created a Car – would I be all-wise if I created it especially so that its tires would go flat after a few miles of driving? This would not be efficient, and I would not be all-wise.

If I created a human heart… I would be un-wise to ever hurt it.

Unlike the cold and insane, monarch-and-false-God of the bible, I understand compassion.

If I made a video game
The difficulty level of the game
Would cause [a form of] stress for the player
And this stress would stimulate the adrenile glands
Which would cause excitement
Which causes the illusion of greatness within the human mind [for a time]
Which counts as “Fun”
Which also causes dopomite release in the brain
Which counts as “Good”

If God did not program us to get a thrill from conflict – then conflict would nolonger be the source of thrill, – and conflict would nolonger be of any value to a human being.

Our adrenaline rush from conflict is actually our bodies natural defence systems giving us a boost for our battle; this is from evolution – and is relative to survival of the fittest.

Our pleasure is a reward system that motivates us to repeat an action – and this is the guidance of evolution.

If now, God gets an adrenaline rush and dopomine releases in his brain when his all seeing eyes see conflict between his creations – why would his brain have an adrenaline system if he was invinsible?; why would he have a dopomine release in his brain if he needed nothing – yet still had a natural reward system/motivator?

The only reason that he would want conflict and opposition is if he had a brain like us – but our brain’s motivators are relative to survival on earth – and without that function they nolonger have any meaning.

God is not an earthly creature, so why would he have these earthly values?

ID is a myth. A mind thought that a mind created everything. This is a fallicy.

Mind is information; information must be stored upon a medium; information cannot create a medium!; “God” did not create any matter or energy – because information simply builds structure out of a second medium – in the shape of the initial, symbolic information [which was] stored upon the initial medium.

Information is the reformatting and compression of structure.

About the flood:Noah warned everyone. his story presumably reached everyone,even though they had no proof a deluge would ever come. they were all warned and any and all could have been saved.(build multiple arks). the nefelum were unnatural superhumans born of evil angles.they were a big reason to purge the earth.would you prefer these evil super humans terrorizing us today?

Jesus warned of the same infidelism today,and history would repeat itself.

i belive b4 the first 2 humans screwed the pooch,thier bodys were strong enough to be immune to all pathogens of the time.in thier choseing free will over god’s lordship,they chose to develope technology that would ruin the earth with pollution.god would not have permitted this.had he not been disobeyed.

creation had free will.this is the universal issue.when all free willed creatures abuse thier free will(or most anyway),the earth becomees this.
if all creatures obeyed god,where would we be?he is proveing the definition of vanity folks.Fundementally.if we do not consider our maker,what will we do?accomplish? perhaps science could advance,but not enough in your lifetime,to save us from death.

counter that last sentance and you would relieve us both. :confused:

It is the will of the morals of the bible VS it’s opponents. so obeying whose will would benefit us more? yes,peck the bible apart.destroy it’s logic and morals in your mind.then turn around and do something better.

are you now better than the bible?

if the bible’s explainations are so flawed,perhaps you would explain all things to us? or say everything has no point,and join the nihilists.

No, not everything. What does the Bible say about God’s opinion on the flu? You’re the one that said the existence of the flu and the existence of the immune system are examples of God’s contradicting Himself. A contradiction is an allegation- you tell me, if you know, why God created the flu, why He created immune systems, and why His aims contradict. All I have to do to disprove the allegations of a contradiction is give an example of how the two things can coincide, and I’ve done so.

Boo-hoo. Why don't you just say "God suxxors!" and be done with it. There's no argument here. God did something, and you would have done it differently. Who cares?

Getting sick is suffering, being recovered from sickness is relief, and relief is a pleasure. A pleasure that cannot be had without suffering, I might add.

Unless effeciency wasn’t His goal, either. You really have no grasp on what you’re saying, do you? All we know is, God created a world in which suffering happens. This isn’t a contradiction unless you can prove that God didn’t or wouldn’t want any suffering. You’ve given up on that from what I can tell, so there’s no contradiction. Now all you’ve got left is saying that you wish it was done differently, or that you think God could have pulled it off better. These are just matters of opinion- what do you want me to do with them?

Did I say anything about God creating the world for a thrill? The video game was an example, the book was an example, the idae of Virtue is an example. All I need is 1 coherent example to show you why you haven’t found a contradiction, and I’ve given you three.

Or if He had a mind like ours, and appreciated a story with drama and the occaisional plot twist. Or, if He knew that the kinds of creatures he intended to make (us), would ultimately benefit from that kind of world.
Or
Or
Or.
There’s a thousand reasons why the world being what it is is only curious, not a contradiction, and not evidence that God doesn’t exist. In fact, I’m not even really sure if you know why suffering in the world should be dauting to the theist in the first place.

Really? Which one? ad hoc ergo propter hoc, maybe?

And again, you’re off on another tangent. Something about energy recoding media or some such. And when if I bothered putting 50 words together to show you why that didn’t make any sense, just like all you’ve said doesn’t make any sense, then you’d move on to something else in the same breath. Perhaps you’d next like to stammer something about the Inquisition? That always goes over well. You haven’t touched on religion as a sort of mental virus (meme) yet, maybe you’d like to give that a go…

…with someone else, I mean. When you’re ready to have a focused converasation about a specific topic, you let me know.