Very nicely put.
As a Christian, I agree wholeheartedly with your explanation of giving without expectation of a reward. But, I also have argued this previously in other forums, and found most Christians simply don’t understand.
Do you have a source for that quote?
This site might help you find it: bible.crosswalk.com/
Now Aristotle says in the Eudemian Ethics that the kalos k’agathos (translated by Loeb as the “gentleman”), is the man who does good because it is good, not just his good or the good of society. Perhaps it is part of the Good News that God is on this man’s side. (Or rather, that he is on God’s side.)
Would you do good if you were punished for doing it?
The ethics behind loving one’s neighbor and the subject of heaven are two seperate issues. We are all fundamentally selfish and so we do generally need to have some reason why we choose to do something, we must feel it is for our good somehow or else we will not do it. Even if I do choose to love someone unconditionally and selflessly it is because I believe that that would be best for me to do so or otherwise I would not do it.
As for the quote, it is in the bible. As for me personally walking that tall walk - no way, I think it is close to impossible. Still it is in such an extreme contrast to what christians do and say, especially fundies.
What I find astonishing is that a really pure christian, whoever really tries to walk this walk will find that he no longer needs any god, and even if god doesn’t exist at all, it wouldn’t change a thing since the person capable of doing this (and possibly surviving) would have undergone such a change of consciousness that all worries and facts about afterlife, god, and punishment, hell etc. would seem completely ridiculous and irrelevant.
The bible doesn’t imply god or metaphysical items or afterlife or really anything. These are all interpretations and fabrications of organized religions. I wonder what analyzing the koran would bring out.
This is not true. The bible says that once one becomes a Christian the holy spirit will come and dwell within them and it is through this holy spirit that helps one to do what it pleasing to God. Also the Bible clearly states throughout that he who believes will be granted eternal life in heaven.
yes, your point seems a bit weird, Nameta9.
The Bible does condone selfishness though; the concept of heaven isn’t a recent addition. This is probably for good reason, as many people wouldn’t adopt the ideas without opportunity for personal gain. While it’s possible that the Christian destination is selfless, the journey is definitely based on selfishness.
link That said, I strongly agree with your sentiment; that is the kind of Christianity I try to follow. However, I think that you have little biblical foundation upon which to ask Christians to stop focusing on what you call the “irrelevant” issues.
i agree completely that we SHOULDN’T need any reason other than the goodnes of a deed itself to perform a good deed. we should be able to help others and think of others purely for their benefit. but i don’t think we can do that. the idea of being rewarded or punished does not go against the ideas and core beliefs of christianity however. we dont’ become god by doing good and loving unconditionally. rather, by thinking of others, we become good. not god. the reason god must exist in christianity is that we as humans are unable to think only of others, we are unable to completely submit ourselves to unconditional love for everyone else. so we are made to be able to submit to god, who can help us submit to those principles.
at least that’s my take on it.
Keep in mind that without the tacit assumption of a God and a strictly defined moral code (which must, then, be determined by the bible and, indirectly, that god,) there is no action that is “good in itself.”
All you're saying is that people should do good things - an idea that needs no label to link it to thousands of years of misguidance.
Would you still believe in god if he didn’t exist ? yes. Why ? because I believe in love and god is love. Is there any other reason ? yes, because believing or not in god is something related to me in some way, but I exist in love, I don’t exist for myself anymore so it doesn’t mean anything anymore. Is there any other reason ? yes, because god is superior to the constraints of existence or non existence, he transcends those categories, as he transcends the categories of contradictions and non contradictions, therefore those who don’t believe in god know him better.
Why is the Christ called the son of man ? why is he also called the son of god ? because god is man and man is god. Man is the god the bible refers to, man is his own god, there is no supernatural god and this is what the bible endorses. We are god.
Islam is against any image of god, Judaism is against any word that refers to god which would include any kind of thought of god. If you add these two, god becomes something you can’t even conceive of, or talk about or even represent in any way not even in your mind not even indirectly.
TO THE UNKNOWN GOD:
If you are not worshiping God you are worshiping something else. True. Usually these are the worldy things the idolatries etc. There is a common thread in the ABRAHAMIC religions that emphasize this aspect. So if we try to be as precise as possible, we would have to worship something that has no image, no word and no concept. That would be pure nothing and would resemble a state of pure transcendental meditation, something the TAO or ZEN religions talk about. Or maybe to really eliminate all the worldly and idolatries we would have to almost be unconcious or just dead, in the secular sense.
"15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to
work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man,
"You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must
not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when
you eat of it you will surely die."
The tree of knowledge that we cannot eat from is the knowledge of “good and bad”. This is a perfect description of exactly the bible and other holy books (koran etc.). So what god is saying here is that we should ignore, if not outright burn, all holy books like the bible and koran else we commit once again the original sin, which is why humanity is always guilty of always this same crime. So god is also tricky because by putting this in the bible it is like stating a sentence “do not read this”, that by the time you read the sentence you also committed the crime. But this shows how tricky and false the bible is as an example of god’s booby traps. But his ways are mysterious so actually the atheists and all those who do not follow any organized religion actually got it right. God is telling us to ignore and refuse all organized religion and even his own existence.
nameta9,
Problems and comments:
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comment: You should read Ludwig Fuerbach, founder of modern atheism, inspirer of Marx, and quoted in “Man is the God of man”, if you want to read someone who originated your field of thought.
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IF Judaism says not to think of God (I have not heard of this before), it probably means not to think of Him as a limited being.
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Eastern religion, of the sort about which you write, seems to treat God only as a “What” and neglect that he is a “Who”. For the world to have created order, God must be/have a Mind.
God,nonexisting or not,is a human tool for mental capaciity to extend at the holy levels of existence. a religous goal named “God” is used for self-awarness and other things,that is what the bible was made for. judging Lucifer to alter his hatred into a dragon was the best idea jesus had in heaven before his manifested birth in egypt. God was a thought emerged for the safety of humanity to limit sinning and the following of satan,lucifer’s hate. God is a universal creator who is instructed by the divine leaders of heaven,who are human i will add. it is up too these divine leaders to keep track of every living being in every different galaxy. God created Life to keep Time in a self-centered thought,our universe,it is up to us for God to save what other evils arrive in his galaxies,he plans evil to exist so Good may conquer all.
I disagree. Biblically, God has knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve ate from the tree with the intent of becoming equal to God. It is this evil intent, not the knowledge of good and evil alone, that is “original sin.” Religions are generally trying to overcome evil, although not all of them say that humans are inherently responsbile for it, and the Bible is no different; the Bible is meant to change the source of people’s intent.
To abandon knowledge of good and evil would be to revert to the level of animals, or at least never accomplish anything “good,” according to the Bible.
Any subsequent interpretation of THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE is a fabrication. By the way even KARL MARX’s works can be considered a tree of knowledge and look at how many people died for it, Stalin, Vietnam, Cambodia etc. God says to not eat this poisonous tree.
Ok, lets get the record staight: the truth is that most people are quite good, most do no harm to anyone, most people in the world have suffered much pain for pure bad luck, economic reasons etc. Your god and the bible-koran other holy books (also very well known as THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL) tries to brainwash people into thinking they have committed atrocious crimes, even thought crimes, even simply doubting the existence of god is sufficient to burn forever.
God is not a mathematician, it is not one crime one punishment, but even a mustard seed of crime, just a slight thought of god’s non existence you get eternal punishment. So religion is simply based on fear. Now to truly have faith and believe in god and be 100% sure you are saved, you would have to not have even the slightest fear of punishment. You would not need to pray, go to church, control all your thoughts since they are such horrible crimes etc. But christians do just this, so in reality they are really never sure they are saved, they really don’t believe in their god, they really constantly have mustard seed of doubts of god and by doing this they once again commit the very crime of doubting god. God gets angry at these christians because he thinks that by now they should trust in him and not have to pray, read the bible, control every thought they have. So it ends up being a positive feedback loop. Fear of punishment->forced belief in god->god sees you are forcing yourself and you really don’t believe with all your heart->god is angry->you know this->you try harder but it will never be enough->you know you will be punished->fear of god; the loop goes on forever is self sustaining. The only way out is to completely deny this religion, god’s existence and all religions. And this is exactly what god wants. He wants people to remain innocent like EVE and not eat the poisoned fruit of the bible-religion.
I know you can respond the only way out of the loop is through christ, but in that case you still have to believe (in christ), or force yourself to believe, or convince yourself that somehow you are choosen by grace, but you are never sure, there is a fine line between grace and being saved through works and they get confused, purposely, to confuse the poor believer: do works reflect the fact you are saved or are they the way to being saved ? and how much “works” are enough to be (or reflect being) saved ? especially since god is not a mathematician, he may expect “10 trillion works”, hence you will never be able to abide, who knows.
Hence the constant pray, chruch going, preaching to oneselves and others (which are works, by the way) etc. But then again maybe your “works” are not sufficient, then again fear and you enter the loop once again. This religion is a TRUE MENTAL TRAP.
All the ABRAHAMIC religions are greatly guilty of the sin of idolatry: the depiction of god as something inferior or different than what he is. These religions assume god to be mostly a total moral idiot punishing people for quirks tied up to human behavior which is something totally irrelevant in the greater universe. The concepts of god these religions have, there description and depiction is something astonishingly simple. A one line instruction:
if good go to heaven
else go to hell
This is god. The creater, the great. Amazing! IDOLATRY, and if he exists it is absolutely offending. An electron of his “creation” as described by quantum electrodynamics is much more complex, if not infinitely complex.
All of a life is a search for faith, for something in which to believe in and all of life is a constant loss of faith, since nothing can ever live up to our expectations.
I’m having difficulty following your thinking.
This is the conventional Christian motive behind original sin; acting for the sake of gaining power despite God’s command. Humans do it constantly to this day–whether it is due to the same cause as Christianity claims isn’t certain–and I don’t understand how you’re denying this. The Bible is a book. Perhaps it can provide an object upon which selfish ideas can be built, but it isn’t the cause of selfishness; people are instinctively selfish, the Bible doesn’t give that to people. Blaming human selfishness on holy books is like blaming the robbery of a diamond by Joe on the diamond.
I’m also confused as to how you can claim that your interpretation is the most accurate one. By what authority do you declare your beliefs the truth above allegedly fabricated ones? Don’t mistake my position here; I don’t like the fear-based system that many, more regulated and proliferated religions use to teach, but your argument doesn’t make sense to me.
Do you really think god or better the Son Of Man, has to respect the principles of identity and non contradictions or even of existence ? He transcends these concepts, can exist and not exist at the same time, be anything or nothing, can contradict himself as much as possible and in fact mocks the human mind for trying to understand something totally unknowable.
He designed the concepts of existence, logic, language, non-contradicitons and can violate them as much as he wants. Therefore he can decide to exist sometimes or decide to not exist, can contradict himself as much as possible. Do you think you have free will ? god commands all you do since there can be no point in the universe he cannot see and control, but at the same time, since he is totally incoherent and contradictory gives you pure free will and gives over his power to the universe, but this is false and he loves all these insane contradictions!
The bible is full of contrasting passages, just look at the many debates at wether one is saved by works or grace or both and by how much etc. , but lets skip it.
The real question is then if a universe that does not obey any logic and non-contradiction is possible. If a totally incoherent universe is possible, and I argue it is since just the thought of it makes it exist, then our “Son of Man” is in control of only one of the many possible universe. Therefore he is limited in that he cannot break logic or the principle of existence. So logic and existence are more fundamental concepts than god, who created those concepts ? Maybe there are many universes with some having a god and others without, or maybe god himself is a god in a vat (instead of we being a brain in a vat).
Typically one response to these considerations is that if incoherence is possible any discussion of it is impossible, all of what is said above cannot be even said. This is true, but still if god cannot be incoherent, then that represents his metaphysical limit, not our minds limit.
Also, it could appear to be that a simpler item can create a more complex item if natural evolution is correct since matter self organizes to more complex levels from simpler. But matter itself is instead very complicated if not infinitely complicated as described by quantum electrodynamics, whereas god described as a one line instruction “if good goto heaven else hell” is very simple.
Finally if one wanted to find out as much as possible of the “word of god” he should read, in their original languages, all three books the old testament, the new testament and the koran, since Islam says to be a continuation or correction of christianity. And then decide what rules to follow. That would be quite a challenge.
Truly fascinating of religions is that they are purely “emotional theories” of the universe. All that counts is the emotional-subjective relationship between the individual and his peers (or god), as if the environment did not even exist or matter. The mental drama, the subjective emotions, hate, love, fear, pain, punishment : this is the complete interpretation of everything, all else is non existent. It is clear how science had to wait so many centuries to overcome a view where the only thing that counts is the mental experience - drama of life, all else being irrelevant. This is a view where the mind is the starting point and ending point of all that exists, the most pure humanistic view of the world.
I disagree. I think we are all fundamentally giving. Watch a young child or baby, and they naturally want to give themselves and their things to you. We learn how to be selfish with our things and our time.
And suppose a bear was mauling you? You could have shot it, but love your enemies, so that they can destroy more people once they are done with you.
Love of evil, is hate for good.
Do you honestly believe, with a sound mind, that submission is the answer? And why didn’t God abolish slavery, instead of secretly adding it to his dogmatic Jewish theories?
And did it ever work? Or did people just like it?
You do know that there could be more deserving and good people that these resources could have been diverted to.
The realization of need? The attachment? Getting strong enough to blind the individual away from practically?
The way I see it, it’s one extreme trying to counteract the other.
Try to be extremely good, to make up for extreme evil on earth.
That’s a long shot… You didn’t fix the world yet.
Strange how many meanings the word “god” has.
Each one is very personal, if not a reflection of pure desire and personality…
You’re right about that!
That’d fit well into a juste and parasite-free society, but if you would prefer to be meat on the table, and righteous at the same time, go for it, and loss will be your only reward.
Congradulations, you just lied; why? For the right reasons. You want to reform this old shit called Christendom, and you’ve done a fine job of it personally. I hope that it works out for you.
Bible lies,philosophyical questions,one Cube-like truth laughed at by the “smart” parts of Humanity which makes america hand over itself to the Blacks.
so much for “what a bautiful day”.