Intelligence

It really all depends on perspective.

A closer look still will reveal that there isn’t even an ocean, that it is simply made up of tiny particles and further inspection will reveal that there isn’t even that, that there is only space, not even that but that there is nothing there…in fact the same nothingness that you are made up of, the same nothingness that I am made up of…you know…perspective dear.

Please speak only for yourself. I can speak for myself. In other words do not say ‘we’ when you should only really say ‘I’ - “‘I’ wouldn’t be inflicted with so many experts”. This is your continual focus, experts. Enough already. Yawn.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss essence. If you wish to dicuss the opinions of experts then do so, but please Nick do it in your own thread.

A

A

True but at that level everything is in perpetual motion. In fact all materiality vibrates. As you know,vibrations are a series of curves.

Why would I want to discuss expert’s opinions? I’m the one trying to be free of blind acceptance.

If you want to discuss the human essence you first must describe it so I know what you are speaking of. Are you referring to the “soul” for example?

Are you referring to the seeker? What is it?

Nick,

If you understood the quotation, then all you had to do was say yes. I didn’t try to explain any more than emphasizing by bolding Chuang Tzu’s own words. There was no need for any explanation for those who understood.

And there you are, forcing your own interpretation onto the Chuang Tzu quotation, as well as getting off into a sniping game.

So no, you didn’t understand., because if you did, you would have said nothing. Not a single thing in those statements of yours suggests any understanding at all. You simply read into them what you wanted them to say, the better to attempt to hijack the thread. You may be clever, but you’re not THAT clever.

This isn’t a game of chess.

JT

JT

Replying isn’t forcing. What are you looking for, ten people to say “Oh how wonderful” without a thought entering their head?

This is no sniping game. It is important to see that we are often gulity of what we condemn. I’ve done it myself. You would rather look the other way. Your choice.

The great spiritual ideas are very captivating. They can lead to freedom or slavery. You’ve never done any work with “cults” You don’t know how powerful the mindset can be. Thank goodness for the active mind that can see them for what they are.

You have no idea how silly this appears. What would be the sense of a board where no one said anything especially if there were things worth saying?

Even if it were possible for me to hijack the thread, what would be the sense since it is interesting on its own merit? I just asked, not told, A to explain what she means by essence so as to follow her meaning. Have you considered that perhaps it is you unwilling to understand?

You miss the point Nick. The point is that it is simply space. There are no curves or straight lines only space. Only the Word.

You continuously discuss your experts. Simone Weil, Prof Needleman. Wake up man!

Of course I’m not talking about the human essence, I’m talking about the spiritual essence and no, I don’t believe it’s a soul.

It’s your true nature. And Nick, with you I’m not even going to begin to talk about it until you take a look at yourself.

The whole point of JT’s effort was to add something to the original post. It was you who condemned JT. Nick, take a look at this, you are steeped in your own judgements about JT and anyone else for that matter as you continuously project images of your own making onto anybody’s words. It’s glaringly obvious to all concerned, it is only you yourself who is unable to see yourself much less your ‘seeker’ within. I’m not saying this in an effort to get at you but rather in an effort to express to you to take a look at yourself before judging the rest of us.

This thread is not open to you until you take a look at yourself. Do you understand? Please no more quotes by Simone et al, I don’t even want to hear from the Bible or Meister or anyone. OK! I want only to hear from you. You yourself. Your spiritual nature. Nothing more. If you can’t take a sincere simple and honest look at yourself, you and I have nothing to discuss. I’m not interested in your projections. Have I made myself clear?

A

Didn’t we learn all this from Dorothy when we were five years old?

LA

So we have a basic difference. For you there is only space and for me the universe is material.

You continuously discuss your experts. Simone Weil, Prof Needleman. Wake up man!

The danger with experts is that they do not invite discussion. There’s is the appeal to emotion and human gullibility. The ones you just mentioned are not this way. They do not ask anyone to accept anything but raise questions rather than stifling them and insisting on "correct"questions.

So what is it?

I have and verified myself as the “wretched man.”

JT posted an excerpt that dealt directly with our natural tendency to condemn others while becoming oblivious of our own failings. I wanted to see also if JT would be man enough to admit it. This is not condemning the excerpt but verifying it.

OK. You’ve adopted some form of ego trip and believe you are some sort of Goddess. This is why you think you can know something about your genuine spiritual nature. You have no idea of the hardships people have endured to get out of their own way and become open to its experience. I don’t want to be the bearer of bad news but it is not fantasy land.

Yes Nick, now get out of my thread.

A

LOL.

So markedly bereft of humility.

Bruce Lee is very well known, across the world and cultures. Say “martial arts” to someone, and his name will invariably come up.

Mr. Lee wrote a book called “Tao te jeet kun do”, the Way of the intercepting fist. Many times he had to refute people who said the book was just a fighting manual, it was his philosophy of life, learnt from the venerable Yip Man.

His final words, in his last recorded interview were simple: “After you have read and understood my book, give it to someone else, or throw it away, then forget you ever read it.”

The Lesson of Bruce Lee and Brandon Lee: The human mind is a fragmentary and segmented, reductionist viewer. It’s the little man in the movie box upstairs, making sure the frames of the film play for the audience of the ego. Those who seek knowledge for knowledge’s sake, will see the universe as a mechanical device guided by principles of mathematics and theories. Those who seek knowledge to forget knowledge for that which they already knew, see the universe is they themselves.

I’d like to apologize to LA for my part in helping side track the subject that started this thread. It’s a shame, because there was some important understanding there.

Just a final observation, something I learned from my grandfather when I was young enough to know EVERYTHING.

I don’t recall what I had managed to do or not do, but the old man pulled me aside one day and told me that I needed to pay a bit more attention to the people around me. He told me that if another person disagreed with me, so what? We all have opinions. If two people disagreed with me, it’s just coincidence. But if three people are telling me the same thing, then I’d better take a good look at myself and how I’m coming across to others. It was my introduction to honest introspection. Being a poor practicioner, it didn’t keep me from making mistakes, but at least I began to understand my own weaknesses. The only thing he forgot to tell me was that I would never stop making mistakes… :wink:

JT

Not to sidetrack the conversation further . . . but welcome back Mastriani! Long time no read.

No need for forgiveness, you’ve done nothing wrong. I must apologise for my impatience, I’m observing an increasing impatience in me of late. And I thought it was getting better. harrumph!!! Just when I think I’ve arrived, I realise I’ve just left. Thank goodness my bags are ever packed. :wink:

Tell us about your understanding JT.

A

No dependence upon letters or words,
But direct pointing to the source of human mind!
No stepping up any ladders,
But mounting straight to the Buddha-land.

  • Bodhidharma

A

Mastriani, I too not see Lee as a mere artial artist. In fact, anyone who seriously gets themselves involved in most Oriental martial arts, cannot be simply regarded as musels from idiot-ville. Philosophy abounds in those kind of stuff, the transcendence of which would make Kant dizzy. Indeed, some even believed that Kant was Chinese in ancestory so that he could come up with that sort of other-wordly stuff.

I think Lee wanted to archieve ultimate self-expression through martial arts. I am very impressed by that. I think it’s right on the Nietzschean track. According to my limited readins on Lee, I declare him a semi-Nietzschean, whom he definitely had read since he was a Philosophy major. Lee to me represents a successful case of being able to get his shit together despite having been born into two cultures with multi-racial ancestories. If he’s still alive right now, I imagine a great director who would make Spielberge dive into a book of philosophy out of embarrassment, and a great actor-fighter who would kick Jackie Chan’s and Jet Lee’s ass combined.

Liquid and brothers of Dao: should you ever intend to practise Kong Fu, then without a shadow of doubt, that Jieqiuan Dao is for you.

LA writes:

OK, but remember you asked for it… :wink:

Several months ago a series of experiences led me back to chapter 47 of Tao Te Ching to re-examine my understanding of knowing. Just what was intellect and what was intelligence? It had dawned on me that I had been seeing the word “knowing” through western concepts and that I had missed true understanding of this chapter.

[i]Venture not beyond your doors to know the world;
Peer not outside your window to know the way-making (dao) of
Tian.
The farther one goes,
The less one knows.

It is for this reason that sages know without going anywhere out of
The ordinary,
Understand clearly without seeing anything out of the ordinary,
And get things done without doing anything out of the ordinary.[/i]

It wasn’t the first time I had tried discussing this chapter. I even started a thread almost a year ago to discuss it’s meaning but there was a crucial lack of understanding on my part, and it all revolved around the word “know“. In western thinking, we can know by simply reading a book. The authority of our knowing resides in the book. Much of our western education depends on the authority of books, and the people who write them. But in the sense of Tao, to know means to not only know what, but to know how, and to know when. Knowing is both experiential and local. Experiential in the sense that one’s interaction within an experience is part of the act of knowing, and local in the sense that it is our every day experiences that are the vital part of anything we would call “knowing”. In this sense, the Way is not discovered externally, but is made in the interaction between one’s self and their experiences. The knowing that comes from our experience is focusing on the how, what, and when things occur. That is the application of our intelligence, thus, “The farther one goes the less one knows.” That is external knowing and is intellect. It isn’t that things of intellect can’t be known. They can. A brochure describing the delights of southern Indian beaches is intellect until one experiences the sand beneath one’s feet, and then there is knowing.

And how does this relate to the idea of seeking? As LA suggested in her opening post, it is a matter of chosen focus; To look outward beyond our experiencing into intellect, or inwardly where that which is sought is the seeker themselves, which is intelligence gifted by consciousness. So should you ask me, what are you seeking? My answer is, nothing. Where are you going? No where. What are your goals? I have none. I have no need for these things. I remain awake, aware, and bring the best of my understanding to each experience as I may. My curiosity remains intact and my ‘doing’ reflects the focus of that curiosity. For the very first time I have grasped the understanding of ‘desire-less desire’.

I was much impressed by the statement in LA’s post that awareness comes when we are half awake, not analyzing, just remaining sensitive to the flow of experience. In our curiosity and interactive experiencing, we find the seeker within and become that which is all. We simply have to be receptive.

There is nothing naïve about this understanding, nor is it an ‘ignorance is bliss’ concept. On the contrary, it is an explicit description of the nature of true intelligence which rejects intellect and calls forth the utmost in our understanding as we say the word “know”.

JT

Just thought some of you might appreciate a scientific approach to knowing without thinking.

sciencemag.org/cgi/content/f … alcode=sci

In case you can’t follow the link, here is a sloppy cite for the article:

On Making the Right Choice: The Deliberation-Without-Attention Effect
Ap Dijksterhuis,* Maarten W. Bos, Loran F. Nordgren, Rick B. van Baaren
Science 17 February 2006:
Vol. 311. no. 5763, pp. 1005 - 1007
DOI: 10.1126/science.1121629

Indeed JT, I most certainly did.

I just need to clarify something here. I don’t think it’s a matter of western concepts versus eastern concepts. It’s a matter of penetrative understanding.

Again at the risk of being pedantic. You cannot attribute this ‘knowingness of intellect’ to a purely western mindset. It must be human.

Hmmm…I would imagine that in the sense of Tao, there is no what, how or when, I would venture that knowing refers to who.

You’re referring to what is called ‘wisdom’. Wisdom is not only knowledge in action - the actualising of knowledge, but is also an attribute (virtue) of the who not the who itself.

So what then is the point of living?

Most of us are asleep wouldn’t you say? If I was truly awake, surely my acitivies would reflect my wakefulness? It would mean that my life would be very different. It would mean that the ‘who’ is manifest in my actions. I suppose my question is: “what is this who and what does it look like?”

If it is that easy then why are we all not acting out of our true natures?

A

LA,

You asked for my understanding. I submitted my understanding. I did not present it as some defendable theses. I have nothing further to say on the subject. Thanks for asking. :slight_smile:

JT

Oh my JT, I didn’t mean to offend, forgive me for challenging anything that is written here.

A

I can’t enter this site, is there any way you could copy and paste some of the important bits? I’m always keen on the scientific perspective.

A