“If the Church doesn’t want you to see it, it’s GOT to be good!”
Seriously, if there are any such documents, is there any reason other than the above for the curiousity in them? It’s a piss-poor argument for credibility.
Ironic, as your statement is completely hollow.
I respect the fact you know what your beliefs are to a fairly precise degree (or at least that’s the impression I get) but you have to at least give us something…
Groundless assertions based on faith are below you. Especially when that faith is concerned with the institution aspect of Christianity. 
Old_Gobbo:
I didn't make an assertion, I asked a question. I'll repeat it:
Other than a sentiment of “If the Church is hiding it, it’s GOT to be good,” is there any reason for the curiosity in these alleged documents?
Unless you mean to take issue with my assertion that the Church hiding a document is a piss-poor argument for that documents crediblity? I figured that was pretty unassailable- and at the very least, it's not a assertion [i]based on faith[/i], it's based on what seems like common sense.
Does the Catholic Church hold any secret documents? I haven’t a clue, they very well may. What I’m taking issue with is that the assumption that if there are such documents, they surely must condemn the Church, or Christianity, or prove the gnostics right, or some other other wild thing. Why even read the documents, when the fact that “Maybe there are some- maybe” is enough to convince you of whatever it is you want to believe?
Hi Uccisore,
I think the real problem is that people mistrust the Church so much, that they believe that this could happen. Added to that, the arch-protestants who condemn the Roman Catholic Church only pour oil on the fire - I don’t think that it is any wonder that such rumours are spread.
Shalom
I did.
Well… I don’t mean to pick a fight here, but I’d say you figured wrong.
So basically you take issue in the assumption that the documents could be… anything really. I’m not sure what to think about this…
Umm… what?
Look… I don’t even know what the fuck you’re talking about but seeing as how the church will not release the documents, we can’t know for sure what they will say. I think we can agree on that so far right?
Now… when I look back throughout history every case in which otherwise public data has been stored or kept secret has shown to be for the pursuit of power. If you can tell me why the Christian INSTITUTION would withhold history for the ends of preserving truth I’d be impressed.
Oh wait… the Church isn’t concerned with historical truth (all availible evidence)… only their own.
I want to read the documents so I can discern my own version of the truth of what happened, based on all the availible evidence rather than Matthew’s cute manufactured distortion. That’s all…
The Vatican is withholding the documents because they want to preserve their institutional power… they don’t have faith that their version of the events will withstand public scrutiny because it won’t obviously. They’re not -that- dumb.
I really fail to see what your argument here is…
Old-Gobbo
So, it’s your contention that if the Church hides a document, that fact alone is a good argument for the credibility of the document?
There ya go. If it’s not horribly condemning to the Church, you can’t even concieve of any other options, apparently. Firstly, there may not be any documents. Secondly if there are hidden documents, they may be
Financial Records.
Love Letters between some decon and some lady.
Historical records (which may or may not be true) that would embarrass some past or present Church official.
The Secret Gospel that reveals that the Church is a sham and that Jesus was a black woman, which the Church should have burned like all the rest, but didn’t for plot-development reasons.
Bits of untranslated or illegible scraps found in holy places, which the Church wants to keep to themselves until they figure out what they are.
Occult documents pertaining to deviltry, ‘magic’, and suchlike.
Private documents held in the Church vaults that have no bearing on anything, but are simply held there as a personal favor to someone.
Did I mention there might not even be any such documents?
?
Yes we can.
I'm too young to directly remember the grand opening of Al Capone's vaults, but I've heard the story enough to learn the lesson- the Unknown is almost always overblown.
The assumptions here are too many to deal with. First, that there are any such documents. Secondly, that they concern history. Thirdly, that they are held there on the authority of the Christian INSTITUTION and not as a favor to the Vatican librarian’s dad or somesuch, and Fourthly that they would be of absolutely any interest to anybody. And that’s exactly the kind of attitude I’m talking about. You’ve leaped from
“I heard there might be some documents in the Vatican library that they don’t let people see, maybe”
to
“The Catholic Church is hiding important parts of their history, which should be public record, in order to maniuplate people and further their own power-grabbing agenda.”
I don’t even know if you realize you’ve done it. The subtle power of the phrase “they don’t let people see” is so compelling that we can’t help but fantasize when we hear it. But ‘fantasize’ is exactly all we can do.
Well, you've got about 40 languages to learn then, hop to it! What's your major in college going to be, Ancient Lit? Dead Languages? I hope so for your sake. So, Mr. "The Truth is Out There", how much of the Vatican library- the part they will LET you read- have you read?
Are you after truth, or controversy?
I know.
Bob
Absolutely. I totally agree with this, and that we Protestants are as much to blame as anybody. The problem with this, as with all conspiracy theories, is that they have a core of the Unknown, in which we can dump all our own biases without confrontation. Hmm. You'd probably say theology is a lot like that too, wouldn't you? :slight_smile:
Heh…
Ucci i get your point despite what I wrote. I can only hope you get mine…
Anyways, there is a reason I don’t go into the religion forum too much when it comes to Christianity… You think I’m misguided, I think you’re making excuses… and and round and a round we go.
lol… favors to the librarian… I gotta remember that one =D>
Hi Uccisore,
Only to a certain degree, I think that the deficite in theology is that each statement is built on a previous one, without checking whether the previous statement is reliable or not.
This year I am experiencing the passion of Christ as a very sensual and emotional lesson, revealing to me that much of what the Bible tells us is very basic and intuitive - more down to earth than much of the theological theory. I don’t think that Good Friday and Easter Sunday has ever spoken so clearly in the past. And this is due to the attempt of a “Free Church” to connect with children.
Watching those children, I sometimes wonder why the church is about power, and whether there is something that the powerful are hiding from me. Isn’t that normal?
Shalom
A splendid discussion between 2 ILP legend.
I am satisfied. =D>
Still, I wonder what the vatican are hiding?
Gobbo:
I do see what you’re saying. Even if there were no rumors now, the very term “Vatican Library” reeks of intrigue. So there would always be that unknown. There are good reasons for not trusting the Church, and that lack of trust is easy to pour into what we don’t know to fill it. There are good reasons to respect and love the Church, and likewise, we can think of the Unknown that way too. I’m no Catholic, but I admire longevity and Institution, so I defend them when it doesn’t look like anybody else is going to. Just remember Al Capone’s vault. Take this statement for example:
The same writer went from “I wonder if they are hiding” to “I wonder WHAT they are hiding” with no logical process that I can discern. I think this kind of thinking is too easy, and not objective at all.
The Roman Catholic Church and it’s capital the city of the Vatican is hiding a lot of things past and present besides destroying the competition starting with the gnostics about 1800 years ago. I’m going to help you with some sites to clarify your mind and maybe wonder why anyone can call himself:
I’m a Roman Catholic
www9.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/
wesclark.com/jw/vatican_time_machine.html
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,169979,00.html
vaticanbankclaims.com/links.html
So, you jumped in to let me know the Vactican is keeping a time machine. Thanks, I’ll take that under due consideration.
skeptruth
Its hard to convince people and make sane people believe in fantays or fairy tale, or miracles, unless they see it for their own eyes. IT is no wonder why the gnostic and the gospel of judas would not be taken seriously. Unless one has faith and what a creative mind he would attain.
pthhp I dunno. Who cares? Don’t really matter at this point…
I’ve heard rumours of a director’s cut of Bladerunner. To not release it would be criminal…I must know the truth about Deckard!!!
When those in power hide things and not destroy them that means they intend to release the knowledge eventually or that they feel a need to study it further. If they destroy these things then they fear what is in them be it lies or truth. A well written lie can be just as powerful as the truth.
The intent of hiding is more important then the actual hiding. Why do they hide the documents? Do they fear loss of power or anarchy? Do they fear that they will become harmed or that the people will be harmed?
You do realize that people back then wrote “prophecies” while drugged out of their mind. Doing natural hallucinagens was common practice. wines, beers and certain foods had interesting ingredients also. Although the churches would really like to hide that fact, too many scientists are making too many tests public, tests done on bones, cloths , urns etc. National Geographic is but one controversial group that has found interesting ingredients from ancient days attached to churches.
So I think the why is more important then the what, because, people are sheeple and will follow a palatable lie faster then a distasteful truth.
I can understand hiding things from public knowledge for the health and well being of the public.
It is sad that works of Aquinas was destroyed along with many others. But the wealth that is still hidden could be a two edged sword. so perhaps for now it is best hidden until society becomes a bit more stable.
Except hidden from me cuz, it has had my curiosity bending for years too . I swear I won’t tell a soul even a sole soul if I get to look.
If such things that are hidden in the vatican. You either must lie and steal it or become a worker for the vatican.
What rightfully belongs to you , rightfully belongs. So i believe it is safe to say they have the right to hide things from the public.
Hi. dan020350, You don’t have to go further than the pages of the Bible itself to find that the Lord of the Rings is more credible than the lunacy, crime, genocide, etc. found in its pages:
On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel: “O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.” So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. ( Joshua 10:12,13 )
We know for a long time that planet earth is not the center of the solar system, neither the center of the Universe.If the “sun” and the "moon"were stopped, why there is not a single record of that phenomenon registered by any other civilization of its time ?
“But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth”
[ Deuteronomy 20:16 KJV]
“Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.”
[ Hosea 13:16 KJV]
“And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under the axes of iron, and made them pass through the brickkiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem.” [ 2 Samuel 12:31]
“Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” [ 1 Samuel 15:2-3]
“Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.” [ Isaiah 13:15-16]
Wow…!!! I’m really impressed with the councel of the biblegod !!!
At the beginning there is an impression, at the end there is depression.