i am a devout christian. however, there are some things that i need some clarification on. as we are humans, we were created imperfect and can thus never reach perfection. therefore we always sin and deviate from God in some way. then in order to redeem ourselves, we must ask God for forgiveness. however, then this becomes a continuous circle of events (us sinning, then asking for forgiveness). What are your thoughts on this?
One can fully atone for their sins, if you don’t you can spend time in purgatory atoneing for sins you didn’t atone for in life.
Christ says he will make us clean. I see it as an iterative process; seeing Him, we want to be better so we try harder, so we get a better glimpse. Every better glimpse allows us to get better, granting a better glimpse. The problem is that the newer structures have forgotten how to get a glimpse, i.e. their dogma shines no light on the Truth, i.e. their lanterns have burnt out.
What is your question exactly? Are you asking if it is OK to sin? Or asking why God doesn’t redeem us completely now?
we sure were.
…
anyway, wouldn’t our eventual inevitable return to god after we sin be a sign to him that we really do care and do want to follow him, but we simply sometimes make mistakes? i.e., the more we ask for forgiveness for our sins, i would think the easier it would be for him to forgive them. (to clarify: i’m sure it’s never easier or harder for him to forgive us, but i don’t think he will forgive us unless we are sorry for what we did, if it clarifies my point.)
Sin is purley a christian concept, to the rest of us it’s having a good time. So we dont need to ask for forgiveness because to us we have nothing to feel guilty about. Thats why we have so much more fun than you religious types.(no offence intended)
Hi simplicity,
welcome to our little cerebral wrestling match …
This does weigh a lot of Christians down and is an issue that needs to be addressed. The problem with Christianity today is that it tends to be a moral bludgeon rather than a way to spiritual redemption. How will you find redemption? In that you learn what sin is and where it is leading you.
Sin, as it is described in the Bible, is essentially the fall into polarity and the inability to see the universe as a whole. Mankind is left in its one-sidedness, unable to gain the full perspective on life. He is unable to recognise his blindness and assumes, naturally, that his opposite is blind. The fact is that both are blind. Not only that, this polarity also leads to imbalance within the physiology and consequently to illness – which is effectively the illness of the soul, not of the body. The body carries the symptoms and signs of the psychological imbalance.
The asking for forgiveness has more than the superficial side to it. Forgiveness effectively looks for the holistic perspective, it wants to see things from Gods view – “Listen Israel, the Lord your God is one!†God is unity, wholeness and integrity. We all have our being as part of that wholeness, we belong in that unity, although we are very often avoiding it by reverting to our polarised view of life, forgetting that we live from the rhythm of two opposites, not from one side. Breathing makes this very clear to us if we try to breathe in without having breathed out first. If we close one eye and walk about, we could stumble because half of our view has gone, plus the ability to judge depth or distance too. We have two sides of our brain which complement each other and work hand in hand, switch one side off and things start going wrong – which we can see every day because we have not trained both sides of the brain equally.
Sin isn’t about what you do, but what you are. You are unable to see both sides, you have a blind spot, you don’t have the full story, you are reacting one-sidedly. You have to recognise this fact, understanding that you need help to understand that life is a rhythm in which you have to find your position and move along with it. With time you understand that, for example, striving for wealth is vanity and one-sided, but another kind of vanity wants us to become recluse and poor. The wholesome attitude would be to deal responsibly with what you are given – but we tend to the one side or the other.
So you see that the view of the Bible and of Christ comes to you from a different direction to what many theologians may tell you. It doesn’t want to make you feel bad, but to enlighten you. Jesus calls to the people, “Come to me all of you who are weary and heavy laden. I will refresh you!†He wants to free us of our incompleteness and lead us to the unity in the One. Part of the way is exemplary in his death – understanding that some times we have to accept the cup as it is offered us.
Shalom
I disagree. the bible clearly teaches the concept of sin as the failure to meet an externally applied standard. Actions are important. Jesus’ words make it clear that intention is also important, but did not negate the fact that it is still defined as a failure to meet an external standard. Sin is most definitely about what we do.
The problem is that we are unable to do anything else apart from Christ. Thus, we sin because we are by nature sinners. Our nature needs changed, and maybe this is where we would agree. But our actions are a true expression of our nature and are correctly defined as “sin”.
Well sorry for saying I doubt your Christian God but not denied it.
I’m a grade 10 high school student at a Catholic High School.
Plus My family is Catholic.
I’ve heard all my life that God is all good and perfected hence everything
he make is good and perfected. But Humans are f***k up too say the least with all the wars and fighting or “sinning” as you called it . This an example of the problem of evil and that shows the continunous circle of forgiving and sinning show that " Bible God " is flawed.
As a buddhist I do relate this cylce of imperfections and feel that it can be come by reaching Nirvana and ending the want and craving of human nature. In a sense a Chirstian can see someone who has reach Nirvana has broken your cylce of sinning but not nessecy perfected .
Hi Ned,
This is a case of treating the symptoms but not the cause of an illness. Sin is portrayed as the great separation despite an inner yearning that is often undefined. Our deeds reveal our polarity and the fact that we fall into the trap of extremism – to the one side or the other. Both are sin, not just the “bad†things we do.
Take the “righteous†for example. Are such people “righteous†because they only do “good†deeds and the “evil†or “hypocrites†do “evilâ€? No, the righteous is not morally perfect, since he has all of the thoughts that the “evil†have and falls into the same pitfalls (perhaps to a lesser degree) as before he “believedâ€. And the “evilâ€? Do they only do bad things? No, some serial murderers don’t even attract attention and seem to be perfectly normal people – so what about the “evil†who are not serial murderers? Won’t they be much less apparent?
The “righteous†is someone who is aware of his deficits and need for forgiveness. He turns to the God of Unity (Alaha) and asks for reunion and guidance. He seeks the completeness that gives him balance and calmness, and helps him find the aspects of life he is missing for sound judgement. The “evil†on the other hand are portrayed as gibers and mockers who jeer at the thought that they should seek such guidance. They scoff at the concept of a wholeness in God and jeer the believers in their religious practise. “Evil†is therefore that one-sidedness that leads to extremism and animosity.
That is why Jesus warns against judgement and preaches even the “love of enemiesâ€, being people that we are out of step with (or they with us). He recommends that we do what we can to find a common rhythm, accepting our differences as the normal run of life – but also helping the other gain his balance, and recognise the whole picture. To love someone is more than being nice to them and expecting their appreciation – which would only end in hypocrisy (another form of imbalance).
What are you saying here that is not just in other words. Christ is the principle of redemption and being taken into the wholeness of God. Without the balance we get from Him, we can only fall into our extremes again, our judgement remains unsound and our deeds betray us as being “off the markâ€. We must surely learn that statements of the Bible have more depth than we see at first. I stay by my statement, and really you are saying the same – sin is about what we are, rather than what we do (we are by nature sinners).
Shalom
You don’t know the bible or the gospel. The bible clearly teaches that all men are evil by nature. We need to be redeemed by God to serve any useful purpose.
This was actually my point. You were arguing that sin was not found in our actions but in our inner being. This is a gnostic rather than a Christian position and is clearly rejected by Paul and John’s writings in the NT. The Christian position is that BOTH are important. Obvioulsy we need to be cured of our inner sickness (sinful nature) but this should not be disconnected from our physical existance and serve as an excuse for sinful behavior. Thus, sin is defined as our actions against a moral standard and our actions (not just our thinking or inner life) should become more godly as we are transformed by Christ.
I would add that the “righteous” man will also have actions that are consistant with a righteous character.
Evil is also expressed in action.
I agree somewhat but I think you are focusing too much on the inner life and not enough on action. Both are important. Consider the words of John…
1 John 2
9Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. 11But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.
No, I disagree. You seem to be saying that sin is about what we are and NOT about what we do. I am saying that BOTH are important. Anyone who claims to have been transformed inwardly will be transformed outwardly too. Action (sin) is important too, not just inner change or peace. Remember Jesus comment about the tree and fruit. We are judged by our actions.
Yes, look at your typical hypocrite. Remember, we must learn to clean the inside of the cup, not just the outside of it.
Alas, another one bites the dust. WiseYoda, please do not take offense, there is none intended. To see the lies and leave is a measure of your commitment to your congregation; as is to see the lies and testify. You’ve cut them off, dashed them to pieces, ALL of them. Is that justice?
Are you aware of the knights of columbus? There’s a fundamentalist, creationist mormon fella… Doug Bachelor i think; when he talks anything but creation i hear truth. I bring him up because he is of the opinion that the catholic church is the object of the imperative,’ come out of her my people.’ I, on the other hand, think the object is the knights of columbus.
As i see it, to circumcise your heart is to be completely open and honest. To swear an oath to a secret group is to violate that necessary open honesty. Christ says ‘do not swear oaths,’ Krishna says break them if you must.
Fight for Truth, Wise Yoda.
Hi Ned,
What I am saying is that a doctor could hardly complain to a patient that his symptoms are abounding if the doctor hasn’t found the cause for the illness. Just the same, people do not act against moral standards because they want to break those standards, but because those people are unbalanced and one-sided. They believe that their behaviour is understandable and even appeal to such standards in their own lives. If you help them see the folly of their behaviour and are able to bring them into balance, they will stop doing those things.
What has happened in the past is that the church has been found hypocritical and some people have been able to free themselves from the dominance of the church and rejected the moral teaching of the church, saying that it is better to be an honest sinner than a holy hypocrite. In reality, both have taken the one-sided positions but there grew the idea that sin was actions against a moral standard, which the church had enforced for God. But what they were calling sin was in fact provocation against an equally “sinful†hypocrisy. This colours our opinion of sin today.
However, in a similar way, Jesus provoked the Pharisees by healing on the Sabbath and told them that their hypocrisy was due to vanity. The idea that they could give witness by standing on the corner and praying was just as vain as the pedantic separation of spices to fulfil meticulously the 10% standard of piety in those days. As long as people think that deeds are sin, they will believe that good deeds are an effective protection against sin – which is clearly not biblical.
For as long as you keep telling someone that, because they do not trust Christianity, they are likely to “sin†- i.e. do sinful things, you will yourself miss the mark, since a most atheists do not “sin†in this sense any more than Christians. In fact, the whole attempt to point to where the difference lies between a “believer†and a “sinner†becomes preposterous on this level. This is where the accusation of hypocrisy against the Pharisees becomes important – since Jesus was theologically close to them – but not in this question. For him, they were filling new wine into old skins – which are bound to burst.
What is a “righteous character� Is it being angelic, blameless, charitable, commendable, conscientious, creditable, deserving, devoted, devout, dutiful, equitable, ethical, exemplary, fair, faithful, godlike, guiltless, holy, honest, honourable, impartial, innocent, irreproachable, just, laudable, law-abiding, matchless, meritorious, moral, noble, peerless, philanthropic, praiseworthy, punctilious, pure, reverent, right-minded, saintly, scrupulous, sinless, spiritual, sterling, trustworthy, upright, virtuous or worthy?
All I can say is, show me this person! “…you load people with burdens that are hard to carry, yet you yourselves don’t even lift one of your fingers to ease the burdens…†(Luk 11:46)
Thank you for giving me scripture. The person who detests another is in obscurity, that is another term for σκοτία (skotia). He is unclear, blurred and abstruse about his own being and stumbles through life, out of tact and blind to where his path is taking him.
He who is enlightened is benevolent because he is aware of the duality of his own person and rests in the Unity of God. He is also aware that his brother, in the same way as he himself, is prone to prejudice, one-sidedness and bias, and will “sinâ€. Forgiveness, therefore is a result of “knowing ones selfâ€.
I am saying that missing the mark may well be an offence, but it is always forgiveable for as long as the “offender†hasn’t burnt his bridges and become someone who scoffs and jibes at religious practice. Of course you can tell a tree by its fruit, just like the proof of the pudding is in the tasting, but symptoms are also warning signs of an illness that may not go away if you only treat the symptoms. How many times should I forgive my brother?
Shalom
I disagree. No enlightening or “gnosis” will help people change. Basically I think we disagree about how far the human race is messed up. You seem to be saying that by appeal and understanding and finding balance, the sickness can be aleviated. I think the picture of sin in the bible is much, much worse that this. A better analogy would be a doctor attending a dead person, the sickness has run rampent and the foul stench of death is everywhere. The doctor (teacher of understanding) can do nothing for the human condition despite his expertise and training. The only hope is resurrection and new life.
Romans 5
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
Sin in the OT is clearly defined as action against a moral standard (remember the book of Leviticus?). It was not invented in some church squabble. I agree with your depiction of the struggle between holy hypocrite and honest sinner. I think every Christian deals with this issue internally and externally. But in the final analysis I think everyone is a hypocrite (including myself by the way) since all men seem to be aiming for some standard or other, and will inevitably fail to meet it. Realising that I am a hypocrite is therefore the only real defence against becoming a hypocrite.
You are correct in pointing out that hypocracy was the problem, and Jesus stood against it. However, Jesus answer to them did not negate the fact that sin and action are intertwined. His point was that God demands righteousness (action) AND sincerity. In fact he says…
Matthew 5
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
I agree that many non-Christians are less sinful than Christians. But this is not a good argument to say that Christianity cannot and does not decrease sinful action. It simply says that some people can reduce the amount of sin they commit apart from Christ.
Here, we are in agreement. One cannot distinguish a believer or non-believer based on the amount of sin they commit. And new wineskins or new birth is the correct definition of Christian life. However, if moral change does not accompany new birth I would question whether new birth has occured. A change in behavior goes hand in hand with follwoing Christ.
Galatians 5
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
Read the gospels. You’ll find someone there who fits the bill.
If you’re warning me about crushing people with legalism then I accept the warning. As Christians we dare not think that we are accepted by God based on good behavior. However, the opposite error is to thing that in Christ there are no standards of behavior at all.
Romans 6
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
I agree with most of this. Let me be clear. Treating the sickness is the most important issue. But we cannot treat it alone since the sickness is beyond our ability to cure and requires supernatural intervention. However, once this intervention has occured we should expect that the patient will show signs of improvement (behavior) and not simply languish in bed.
the innocents and purity of a child. Thus is the kingdom of heaven.
If I blead will I fall? not if I’m strong enough to overcome.
To err is human. To forgive is Godly.
Yet to earn forgiveness is demigod like.
If you grow up in NY, and see a murder happen, and do nothing. You are merely responding to your enviorment. Yet the calousness of ignorring crime is in your soul.
If a old women is swindled by her trusting heart, is she to blame or the swindler. I think satanists have said that she is to blame for being so stupid. But then that just reviels the satanists calousness.
When people get used to the manipulation, and join the flow of society, we see people that invite caloused views unto others as a part of gaining their own acceptance.
Hi Simplicity. “Sinless” is not the same as “sin less.” Apostle Paul concluded that his own work and effort to save himself was futile (Rom. 7: 15-25). An individual is saved by grace not by his own works (Eph. 2:5-8, 2 Tim. 1:9). “Good actions” by individuals may be evidences that God has already done the saving for an individual - but this cannot be trusted alone because the individual could be deceiving himself by his works (Matt. 7:22-24).
The right “state of mind” (or heart) is meaningful - the Matt. 5 “beatitudes†as well as in the Galatians 5:22-23 “fruits of the spirit†(which are: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control) are significant. Sadly, there are plenty in “churches” who have NONE of these fruits – but thankfully there are billions of individual Christians that do. To a large extent, you can know the true believers from the false ones by observing their fruit (Matt. 7: 15-20).
Another very important evidence of a true believer is that he will have a “broken heart and a contrite spirit†(Psa. 34:18, Psa. 51:17, Isa. 57:15, Isa. 66:2). In other words, the individual has to experience despair and anxiety to become a true believer (Luke 18:10-14). Furthermore, on a “one to one†basis with God, the individual has to work out his salvation with “fear and trembling†(Phil. 2:12). When we think we are worthy then we are not. If we think that we are righteous of ourselves, then we are not. Passion
A pointless, fruitless, self-defeating cycle of events… Where have I seen that before? Ah, everywhere. Thank God!
Actually “imperfection” will be able to be deprogrammed far later in human history, once genetic engineering becomes advanced enough, then we can undo God’s stupid shit.
devout christians do not ask such things … they accept …as i used too…
careful ,u are using ur mind … why stop at this qeustion ? go the whole hog !!! why did god deliberetly make us imperfect ???..or considering the other creatures on the planet and their life spans and nature u could say he done a perfect job … u have been made and brainwashed into ur thoughts as have the other religious ,dont u ever wonder why muslims …zaroasters …bahi …buddists ,taoists ect ,beleive what they do ? they r just like u … if u know of one religion …u know nothing…read all of the religious storys and see that ur religion is as they are … and dont worry about ur gods wrath .at learning of other gods and ways .just ask for forgivness…any way u wont worry about such things when ur mind is no longer strangled…