Theism and "personal God " as the God seen in the Bible and other religous texts are illogical i.e. problem of evil and the fact that Bible God conredicts himself about a 1,000,000,000 times.
But does Deism makes more sense that God exist with the watchmaker, first casue and teloological argument. But doesn't
belive in divine intervention.
Atheism proves that there's no illogical "personal God"
seen in the Bible but has no answer to the cause of the Earth.
Frankly I call myself an Agnostic-Deist . I belive in a " God" as the
Creator but I’m agnostic on the whole all knowing, all powerful and “Bible God”. Hell maybe God’s a man, woman or even a group.
O.k. you agree with that personal God is flawed. What about atheism.
Some people not saying you with reject personal God and call themself atheist when atheism is flawed as well.
I think Deism fails, because without the conviction that arises from theistic religious belief, there is no good reason to suppose God in the first place. The cosmological arguments for the existence of God are okay, but totally insuffecient to suppose a brand new entity like God with no other reason to do so.
I think atheism is the much more reasonable belief of the two.
So, if you are incapable of questioning your own beliefs, how do you know they’re correct? Because the Pastor told you? This is none other than an appeal to authority, and designed to keep people “in the dark.”
Do you think you can ever have absolute security, be 100 % secure that god exists, and even more important that your brand of born again religion is correct ? Do you really think absolute 100 % security is of this universe, wouldn’t you have to be god to really have that kind of supernatural certainty on anything ? I even doubt I am alive, that I think well, I doubt everything imaginable…
Even if you were 100 % certain of your faith, then wouldn’t you no longer need faith ? doesn’t faith always imply some small amount of doubt ?
do you really trust in logic-language-reasoning ? since questioning involves having faith first in these items before you even have faith in god, then do these things come before god ?
You need to stop putting words in my mouth. I said the gospel doesn’t make sense from the outside (“foolishness to the perishing” seems straightforward enough). I didn’t say that questioning of one’s beliefs is disallowed. Authority is important in Christianity since biblical interpretation can obviously lead to profound error.
Hey weird Donald Ducks, no one can answer those questions ? Any god believers out there capable of answering those simple questions ? if not then those who believe DON’T EVEN KNOW HOW OR IF THEY BELIEVE IN THE GOD.
It’s funny old6598, I see all kinds of deep discussions on the nature of God and belief in him going on around here, and your name never seems to come up. I wonder why that is. Put a little bite behind your bark, eh? Create a thread, ask any question you’ve ever wanted to ask to a theist- the ones that you think really embarras the Christian position, and I’ll give you an answer. Hell, rip of nameta’s questions if you want.
old6598 is a weird donald duck isn’t he ? hey ducky, you are also god’s boss aren’t you? old6598 tells god what to do but doesn’t require worship.
Anyways, its funny how nobody can answer those questions. They really imply that there is no way anyone can believe in god, so it is impossible to believe on the outset.
Or only those who are innocent like little children can believe, like believing in Santa Claus, only those who DON’T THINK and CAN’T THINK can really believe in god. The less you think the more you believe…
I shall answer those questions and prove that god cannot exist:
the structure of the universe consists of DOUBT. The universe is not even sure it exists, let alone god. Why would god leave even the smallest seed of doubt ? to test the believer ? why the cruelty ? because even god isn’t sure he exists, even the concept of existence isn’t sure it exists…even matter doesn’t know if it exists.
if you were 100 % sure of god then you wouldn’t need faith. You wouldn’t even notice you had faith, you wouldn’t even notice you believed. If on the other hand you have some small doubt, then you don’t believe enough, and god sees you have some doubt so you are not up to the faith he requires. So either way you are wrong and god doesn’t even know what to do or think.
you use logic-reasoning before anything and even god must use it to even exist and distinguish himself. So he is a minor god compared to LOGIC and anyways there is a god before him so he lies. If god didn’t use and want us to use logic, then you could imagine him being and thinking and doing anything, even sending the just to hell and the unjust to heaven. But god doesn’t even understand himself.
The real trouble is that you cannot distinguish intellectually between logic and truth to allow for the obvious.
I could show you many positions over the chess board where a logical sequence of moves apparently leads to an easy win. It is all quite logical. Then, out of the blue, someone reveals a combination in the position, at first a seemingly illogical move, that changes the position and the sequence from a win into a loss.
The initial conception was quite logical but its claim of victory was untrue since it lacked sufficient variables. As Dr. Lasker once observed: “It is the combination that reveals the hypocrite,”
So where God does not exist logically for you, being out of balance, you do not exist truthfully for God. Naturally there can be no connection between logic and truth. The question becomes how to acquire a better balance of variables and place them into context as the chess master does over the board in the attempt to unite logic and truth. This is essentially wisdom and a whole other matter not worth discussing since it has become totally out of fashion to do so.
That is the nature of men, not the universe. A star doesn't need to know to do what it has to. For that matter, neither to humans- we've invented this concept of 'certainty', practically including it's unreachableness in it's very definition, and now at our leisure we trot it out to deny the things we want to deny, while accepting plenty of other things with out it.
As to your questions, they don't have anything to do with anything- your conclusion is "God Can't Logically exist". Logically, you asking "Why didn't God do it this way instead of that way" does nothing to bring you closer to that conclusion- I question if you know what logic is all about, really.
Again, this has nothing to do with the existence of God- God could come up with all sorts of impossible goals and contradictory rules, and still exist. The American legal system does it all the time, and doesn't wink out of existence. Now, you could argue that by definition God [i]shouldn't[/i] come up with rules that strike you as unfair, but then we're back to the problem above- you whining about how God should have done things says nothing to prove He doesn't exist. You don't approve of His methods? Who cares?
To answer your question more 'directly', God does nowhere, to my knowledge, demand of us completely certainty of His existence, and the definition of faith does not entail complete certainty (in fact, it just about entails the opposite), so really you don't have a point here. Christians will waver all over the place in their certainty of the existence of God over the course of their lives.
And this is either false or incoherent. Perception comes first, intuition comes second. ‘Logic-reasoning’ is ideally only used for those stubborn areas which perception and intuition can’t reach. I don’t blame you for saying the above- it’s an easy mistake to make.
First of all, if God already knows everything, he doesn't need to use logic- perception is enough. Secondly, even if God does need to use logic (say, to predict future events), you saying that this somehow makes logic a 'god' that is before 'God' and therefore God being a liar seems to have come entirely out of your...gut. Rather, if God is eternal, logic would be just one more of those things which are wrapped up in His nature.
But, logic probably doesn't exist external to language anyway, so none of this matters.
Perhaps, but you have given no reason for anyone to think so. [/i]
Ok, maybe I’m just being pedantic, but what does that mean? How can any of that have any real meaning whatsoever? What do you mean by “the universe is not even sure if it exists”? How can “the concept of existence” question its existence?
Hmmm. A.J. Ayer would have a field-day with what you posted.
If culture was a prison, and faith was queer, deism would be bending over backwards 24/7.
One “god” contradicting the other and one “creation” contradicting the other. This points to a different source of reality: Chaos.
I don’t wanna hear people preach to me in other forums about how “anthropic” our universe is, either, because it looks to me like humanity will self-destruct; other species did not use intelligence as their main survival tool, and if no new intelligent species rises, once our sun burns out…
****!
I see the believer in god and an afterlife also as the deathist.
Once dead, he is free from all responsability to the earth, and his “reward” that he believes he will receive is also of no use to earth and his children.
Physical immortalists are rare, whilst the religious are many. Humans cannot really handle reality properly, and they will kill themself because of this. Their focus is in the wrong place. I cannot stop them. Many simply have a faithful little dream, an escapism, some incredibly vast bandade set overtop of their hellish genetic & ecological condition.
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I know “god” is “real”; that’s why I hate “him”! Spiritual hives only get stronger each time a dead human soul gets fed into them.