Knowing and Knowledge

“….A great deal of knowledge is needed to make bows, crossbows, nets, arrows and so forth, but the result is that the birds fly higher in distress. A great deal of knowledge is needed to make fishing lines, traps, baits and hooks, but the result is that the fish disperse in distress in the water. A great deal of knowledge is needed to make traps, snares and nets, but the result is that the animals are disturbed and seek refuge in marshy lands. In the same way, the versatility needed to produce rhetoric, to plot and scheme, spread rumours and debate pointlessly, to dust off arguments and seek apparent agreement, is also considerable, but the result is that the people are confused. So everything under heaven is in a state of distress, all because of the pursuit of knowledge. Everything in the world knows how to seek for knowledge they do not have, but do not know how to find what they already know. Everything in the world knows how to condemn what they dislike, but do not know how to condemn what they have which is wrong. This is what causes such immense confusion. It is as if the brightness of the sun and moon had been eclipsed above, while down below the hills and streams have lost their power, as though the natural flow of the four seasons had been broken. There is no humble insect, not even any plant, that has not lost its innate nature. This is the consequence for the world of seeking after knowledge. From the Three Dynasties down to the present day it has been like this. The good and honest people are ignored, while spineless flatterers are advanced. The quiet and calm of actionless action is cast aside and pleasure is taken in argument. It is this nonsense which has caused such confusion for everything under heaven.”

The book of Chuang Tzu
“Broken Suitcases”

400-300 BCE

We pride ourselves all our knowing. we know the nature of nature, we know the psychology of mind, we know the nature of God, know all that of heaven and that of earth. We are the knower’s of all. And yet we see that even 2300 years ago the fallacy of our knowing was our failing. We haven’t any profundity that hasn’t been known for at least two millenia.

What is lyrically and almost poetically said by Chuang Tzu has been said over and over again in every century. There is nothing complex nor mysterious in this understanding. The difference between knowing conditionally and the knowing of knowledge is vast. And yet, the collectors of knowledge persist in knowing - and knowing for all.

If you appreciated the meaning of the excerpt you would appreciate wisdom and what denies it to us. Since you don’t, you do not understand the excerpt

JT,

I believe that Chang Tzu is indeed referring to our external focus. That we blame the other for our own shortcomings when in fact a truly humble man owns his own stuff. He suggests that all creatures under heaven have lost their innate True Nature. He also reveals a way of returning to our innate True Nature through honest introspection, through witnessing ourselves in the mirror that is the other. The answer is in the question. He’s not really saying that the pursuit for knowledge is futile. He is expressing that there is another kind of knowledge. The seeker that seeks in knowledge i.e. through reading etc isn’t really seeking for his truth in that knowledge, he is really seeking for the greatest reflection of that truth that already exists within himself.

A

Hi Angel,

Aye, there’s the rub …

On the other hand, why are we here? I am here to listen (or read) and learn, making my own offer every now and again, but I take much more than I give. I think that such a forum, as impersonal as it is, can indeed offer us a mirror in which we see each ourselves. There is a chance to hear (or read) things that we haven’t heard before and go off on journeys we wouldn’t have otherwise begun.

All the time though, if we don’t find the “inner chamber”, it is in vain. If we are looking for knowledge as a kind of stepping stone or stair, we will go around in circles. If we don’t find the calmness, and the peace of redemption, we will fail and be lost. Knowledge of external things doesn’t help, but knowledge of internal things does.

Shalom

I disagree with this chap…right…here:

Lies.

Nick,
That you confuse wisdom with your objective reality knowledge is understood by all here.

LA,

I think we agree with perhaps some minor points of emphasis. I felt that the thrust of his comments was upon the immediacy and conditional nature of true knowing as opposed to the sort of knowing that relies on some sort of ‘out there’ reality. I would agree that truth resides within and not in some external knowledge. His comments also reflect an understanding of wu wei and it’s misapplication in our affairs.

Yeah rotten ol wisdom

Wisom is speaking:

Too bad It wasn’t Tentative the Great at the beginning instead of wisdom. Without the universal laws being referred to, all would really be la la land.

The cause of such “immense confusion”

The good and honest people are ignored, while spineless flatterers are advanced. The quiet and calm of actionless action is cast aside and pleasure is taken in argument. It is this nonsense which has caused such confusion for everything under heaven.

Chuang Tzu is right of course, a great deal of versatility is used “to produce rhetoric, to plot and scheme, spread rumours and debate pointlessly, to dust off arguments and seek apparent agreement” in everyday life. Consider the amount of versatility used in our modern educated medial society (which Chuang couldn’t have even imagined), but isn’t the result only that people are confused? Where is any kind of clarity? I think that there is more clarity at the sickbed of a poor woman at the end of her life than in a million libraries.

In our civilised society everything “is in a state of distress”, and in the end it is about the pursuit of knowledge. There isn’t anyone who doesn’t know how to seek for “knowledge they do not have”, but who knows how to find what they have in their hearts, waiting to break out? I have often thought that the dream of mankind to enter outer space is similar to what is described here. Consider the Star Wars and Star Trek imagination and look how in fact every subject they touch is here on earth. The discovery of the Cosmos begins internally – not through using up our resources trying to leave the pull of gravity.

Shalom

Bob

What does this have to do with how “Yo Momma Sucks?” variation #157? That is the question of the day and it is our obligation as citizens to further its pursuit in as harmonious a way as possible.

The joy is in the argument. Without any higher meaning, what else is there? It’s about time you got with it.

Nothing is in the heart waiting to break out. The heart hasn’t been found yet. Certain individuals may look for it and some may even find it but they are inconsequential to the big picture.

Just put more effort into the question of the day in as PC mode as possible so as to create the right impression and just follow the flow.

Hi Nick,

Now read what you have written and tell me what there is there that could even make me want to answer, other than my concern for your soul? You are so far into wagering war on what you regard as “the great Beast” and whatever, that there is nothing else but indignation and hostility within you. It will eat you up, so back off.

Shalom

Nick,

If all you have to offer is more whining, get out of my thread.

Bob,

The dilemma I see in the forum is the willingness to confuse knowing of that which is manifest, and that which is of spirit, and so yes, the clarity and immediacy of knowing at one’s death is the only knowing worth knowing.

This is what keeps me in the fray. There is the understanding that comes from heart, and that is the only truly important knowing. The knowing of manifest comes as it is needed, but the knowing from heart is always in need.

With all the religious bigotry in this world it’s refreshing to listen to such tolerance from those who follow a higher way of enlightenment. Maybe we should all join hands with Michael Jackson and sing “we are the world, we are the children…”. Does anyone know the verses?

Hi Ned,

Either post in the spirit of the thread’s initial post or you have the same invitation offered Nick.

Bob

Why back off. It is the spirit of the board. I will site so many instances to verify it to be the case if you’d like. In Rome do as the Roman’s do.

There is no hostility. If all there is is universal chaos, what is the sense of anything. What good is the heart in universal chaos? It serves no purpose.

So just raise a toast with me in support of that now universal axiom: “Yo Momma Sucks” and proceed to drag down any with a spark of feeling in them.

Tentative the Great

Profound philosophy is not whining. You must consult your imagination on these things.

Ned

Live, learn, and shudder Let them who can, see it for what it is. Be happy it is not you.

Profound philosophy! =D> :laughing: :laughing:

You and Ned are welcome to take the Chuang Tzu quote and start your own thread. You have offered nothing of value to mine. Move on.

Nick,

If you wish to raise the level of discourse on this board you must know that the matter is in your own hands.

A

Tentative the Great

What!! We are all one. Everybody loves everybody. How dare you say something divisive?? You must learn to be tolerant, inclusive, and open minded while educating with the flow of your astute wisdom. We are a happy community. Enjoy.

A

I tried but now it is time to “Annoy the Great Beast” in pursusit of common sense and the means to discuss it. Everything above is politically correct.

Nick,

You are only hurting yourself. You have to be the example to the point where your example inspires. Discussion about truth is one thing, but applying your truth, expressing it through your being is quite another thing is it not. All your words over the past year have been empty. Empty words that have simply led you to a place where you only wish to show your rightness and your disdain for others who do not agree with you. Shame for you Nick.

A

A

I suppose my Simone Weil threads were empty. “Simone Weil Atheist to Christian and “Simone, Plato, and the Cave” were empty.”

Several months ago I tried to coax two people to join for the purpose of discussion. They both remarked to me that the attitude was no good for that quality of discussion even to set an example.

I can write wonderful and lovely words for the sake of the oohs and ahhs but why bother. It is good for getting laid but not for sincere religious philosophical discussion via computer…

I am not showing my rightness but indicating to all that can see, the situation as it exists. At least that has some meaning.

Nick,

You are not listening to what Angel is saying, your words are hollow if you follow the tactics you present here. You have presented Simone Weil as someone who lived what she preached - if we can speak of preaching at all - but through your cynicism and sarcasm you move further and further away from the people you admire.

Who am I, who is Angel or Tentative if your quotes show what moves your heart? Why get upset, why fight in the manner you have? Why try to achieve from others what you can do yourself? The truth is, it has got you in its grip and your indignation has you wasting time fighting windmills. It is this that I feel brings you the most criticism, since you chose to be an authoritarian teacher who is cynical of “experts” and people of the cave. But this with biting sarcasm can’t achieve what you intend.

Your life can’t be reduced to fighting for a board on ILP with these means, and to be honest, that is what it seems to be. It is out of genuine concern that I say that you need to step back and free yourself of all annoyance and indignation and find your independence from the outcome of your application for a new board - it is all unimportant…

Shalom