The Transcendent Unity of Religions

Do you mean ‘recognize’ it?

I have found contemplating the process of finding to be fruitful.

Diverse, yes; and so some are competitive and some are not.

Why? I don’t think it is to out survive our neighbor. There is a persistent re-addressing that compells a movement toward stability. The brain does it, and early scribes did it in writting. It might be that it appeared as it did in anceint greece because of certain factors; competitiveness might permeate the greek core more so than others.

How so?

Sure.

We need to engage competition thoughtfully, if at all. We can choose our direction of evolution; if you choose to move toward greater levels of competition i’d imagine you’ll end up very busy.

Well, no. The serch for Truth seems to me a process that a small percentage of humans are given to. It comes from a recognition of the fact that the Truth is most benificial to the life of the ‘righteous;’ aside from that is the desire to be ‘righteous.’ I’ll acknowledge the fact that before there were the words ‘Truth’ and ‘righteous’ there was this unspoken, honest competition. I will argue that the origin of the secret groups, the word ‘Truth,’ and the word ‘righteous’ are all intimately related.

If you are in error then perhaps an inward focus is called for?

Clearly, there is only one productive answer to this question.

I think i understand what you’re saying about competition. Before there was ego self i think things were much as you describe; but i also think there’s a high likelyhood that the notion of self would have included Mother, and perhaps Father, Brother and Sister aswell.

What purpose ego?

You mean an impossibility for us as we are now?

I think you’re right here, Nick. However, you might have to acquire knowledge in order to acquire perspective; maybe.

Gads I hate chopping thoughts up but, if I must I will continue as you have begun. I prefer whole paragraphs and thoughts to dissecting paragraphs a whole coversation like this removes and culls out key elements but, since most here insist on being reporter style conversationalists I will try.

And i will try harder to respect your paragraphs :slight_smile:

In this thread, tentative has been good enough to point out a subtle distinction between Knowing and Knowledge. I take it you mean knowing conditionally? Look here for my take on proceedural knowledge and how it relates. In the context of proceedural knowledge, knowing is a matter of recognition, i think; you recognize the situation, the problem, and the solution, without ever having to name anything. If you don’t recognize then, without faith, you begin to worry.

Maybe i should have said some people are more competative and some less.

I understand now a semantic difference between us. What you see as competition i have labeled ‘teleological tennis;’ in its most objective form it is analogous to a signal being reflected and refracted, we have a tendancy to take a personal view and ignore all of the ‘irrelevant’ echos. I have taken the view that anywhere i see a potential for teleological tennis i consider the possibility of consciousness.

Yes i agree; i have been, i think.

Some people aren’t all that inclined to do things like that. I’ll be happy to do it as long as i see progress; as you say, it is improvement that motivates me. It is true that views are set against each other, but they may not be mutually exclusive.

Well, we were talking about two different things. Thinking about levels of increased teleological tennis, i am compelled to name a quickening, or a crowding. I was thinking about competition as a setting against each other; and if that is a goal then things will more and more generally be in conflict.

Exactly. The first sentence implies ego; if you are conscious of your existence then you must have an icon in your brain for ‘you.’ Why? What purpose ego?

Don’t apologize; thanks for asking.

Before the human individual was capable of ego consciousness, i imagine self was defined naturally by family structure; and that’s the environment that our language abilities evolved in. Competition would have been directed outward, more so as language became more articulated, i think.

Dear All,

Oneness is the natural state, the primary principle of life, the path of life, the true reality. Division or separation are illusions; opposition and competition exist and establish hell on earth. Only in oneness can there be happiness.

Nick, I enjoyed your quotes of others, especially the eagle-chicken allegory. You are seeking the path of oneness. The longing for oneness runs deep to our essential oneness itself. I am currently being forced to either fly or die. Regarding the quote of the horizon, I had an parallel experience looking at the edge of the horizon from a beach in the Philippines. All was one. I was immobile, standing; my will would not have served me as Nature was teaching me something and for this I was as still and submissive as one could be. To complete the experience, a beautiful old man came up to me and played his small guitar and sang a romantic song in Visayan; a smiling girl who seemed to be his granddaughter danced around him in the sand, and drew a heart with a stick. The tears flowed down my face.

Very few of us can see what we really are, and how we are here to serve the highest or die the greatest death. It took my wife’s words to wake me up this morning. She said I didn’t trust others easily because I didn’t trust myself. I’ve always been solid inside, but my illusions of what I and others were were clouding the truth.

You want to fly. My question is will you? To move beyond illusion one must have a reference point; that reference is numbers. Pythagoras implied this, and I speak of it again.

Love,

Luxin
luxin729y@yahoo.ca

Hi luxin

You’ve got me curious. Could you elaborate and on this a bit? Why is it so?

Is it not possible that oneness and division can exist simultaneously. Take for example a horizontal line connecting the extremes of hot on the left and cold on the right. Can these two temperature extremes be reconciled as one? I believe so. If you extend two lines upward and at a an angle beginning at each extreme they would meet and form a triangle. The apex of this triangle represents the elevation to the point at which the extremes are reconciled as one. Frankly I believe this is the transcendent unity of religions where diversity on one level simultaneously exists within “One” at a higher level.

For all the aggravation I’ve gotten for my quotes, the fact that you appreciated them makes my effort worthwhile. You do seem to have a genuine appreciation for life itself which I admire.

Well put and I share your frustrations. To know oneself to the degree where it would be possible to realistically trust oneself is a tall order. IMO We underestimate our capacity for self deception.

I would agree. For me the universe is material and functioning by universal laws that are mathematical. Why not start a thread on it. I’d like to read your thoughts on the matter.

There is a lot of interest in the Tao on this board so I thought I’d post this link that shows how the Tao is older than normally suspected and has gone through its own “improvements” as did Christianity for example creating Christendom.

So the serious seeker is again faced with swimming upsteam like the salmon to get to the source.

taoism.net/ikuantao/origin/home.htm

July 12, 2006

Hi Nick,

I visited 2 musician friends at their gig last night at a Vancouver pub, and took my 4-year-old daughter to the beach today; a lovely time in all. ‘Fly’ is my term for ‘getting a life’ or allowing a balance of as many pursuits as possible to be established, after 2 weeks (phew!) of analysis and criticism mostly on the topic of false prophets and prophecy in a very long letter to my friend, Clayne Conings. His baseball playing was really the best example I could have had. It was really time for a ‘reality check’ and moving on! Confucius said, “Don’t bother explaining that which has already been done; don’t bother criticizing that which is already gone; don’t bother blaming that which is already past.” (Analects 3.21) On false prophets, Jalaladdin Rumi said, “The imitator is like a canal. It does not itself drink, but may transmit water to the thirsty”.

Further to your examples of the principle of duality, I saw the complementary duality of earth and sky on the horizon. We do favor perceiving the dual nature of all things, which deludes us into missing the essential oneness. The ‘one’ represents truth, integrity and essence; the ‘two’ represents the ‘lies’ of delusive form, or anything which distracts the mind from the true unity. Men and women are the same in spirit, loosely symbolized by ‘one’; our bodies have a huge impact mostly on how that spirit’s expression is perceived; this is the delusiveness of physical form, loosely the ‘two’.

I’m happy that you’re happy. It’s a pleasure to meet you. Fine quotes are signposts on the road to Truth.

[You said:
“We underestimate our capacity for self deception.”
]

Well said. Quoting my letter, “… the ways of self are far more insidious than we will perhaps ever realize; that we are all, at whatever stage … we are at, designed by Nature to be unconscious or conscious pawns or servants of the Truth and Its metaphor, Sophia, who “ruthlessly” uses all those who love her in order to propagate Herself by any means, including a special use of false prophets or “imitators” as Idries Shah calls false Sufi teachers”. (The Sufis) Concisely: “It’s all good”.

Regarding Anthony de Mello’s ‘The Eagle and the Chickens’ allegory, in which the eagle is destroyed by his illusions, some quote responses:

On the suppression of Self:

The tree wants to blossom but the frost will not let it. (Greek proverb)
There is no greater misfortune than wanting something for oneself (Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching, 46, trans. Gia-Fu Feng)
In the pursuit of learning, every day something is acquired. (Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching, 48, trans. Gia-Fu Feng)
Nowadays men do not believe in humility, but always try to be first. This is certain death. (Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching, 67, trans. Gia-Fu Feng)
The hard and strong will fall. The soft and weak will overcome. Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching, 76, trans. Gia-Fu Feng)

On the greatly delusive status quo (“the forces that demand conformity”):

There is work which is abandonment of work. (M. Ibn Ezra, Shirat Yisrael, 1924)
The need for approval is Self-rejection. (Luxin)
No personal regard where truth is involved. (Elijah Gaon)
I have only one life, and it is short enough. Why waste it on things I don’t want most? (Brandeis, ATOJQ 488D6)

On settling for nothing less than the Truth:

The exact opposite of what is generally believed is often the truth. (La Bruyere)
Nature has buried truth at the bottom of the sea. (Democritus)
Trust no man. (Reinhold Niebuhr, Beyond Tragedy, p130)
It is best to trust in God, not in our own reasonings and uncertain conjectures (Philo, Allegories, iii 81) [Trust the Divine Self, not the human self.]
Know ye not that ye are gods? (hermetic adage, p480, The Templar Revelation, Picknett & Prince) (and paraphrase, John 10.34)
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:21)
There is a story in the Avadhuta Gita which talks of the avadhut who stopped at a wayside inn and was asked by the innkeeper, “What is your teaching?” He replied, “There is no teacher, no teaching and no one taught.” And then he walked away. [Self is the teacher]

[Though the chatak bird is about to die of a parched throat, and around it there are 7 oceans, rivers and lakes overflowing with water, still it will not touch that water. Its throat is cracking with thirst, and still it will not drink that water. It looks up, mouth agape, for the rain to fall when the star Svati is in the ascendant. “To the chatak bird all waters are mere dryness beside Svati water”. (Sri Ramakrishna)
]

On the potential triumph of Self:

There is no democracy in creation. (Jean-Pierre Perreault)
Give up learning, and put an end to your troubles. (Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching, 18, trans. Gia-Fu Feng)
O Mother, what wilt Thou accomplish by killing one who is already dead? (Sri Ramakrishna, in a state of ecstasy, addressing the Divine Mother about his own approaching illness)
In the pursuit of Tao, every day something is dropped. (Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching, 48, trans. Gia-Fu Feng)
The soft and weak will overcome. Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching, 76, trans. Gia-Fu Feng)
The sage is shy and humble – to the world he seems confusing. Men look to him and listen. He behaves like a little child. (Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching, 49, trans. Gia-Fu Feng)
‘Except ye become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’. (Matthew 18.3)
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:4)
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. (Matthew 5:8)
And a little child shall lead them. (Isa. 11.6) [Christ Consciousness]
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. (Matthew 20:16)
Socrates is supposed to have said: “You must do a crazy thing once in a while to keep from going nuts”. (Hershfield, 1938 - 516.3)
If I wasn’t nuts, I’d be crazy. (Luxin)

“Fly or Die” (Ennoblement or Degradation):

The Sword and the Book came from Heaven wrapped together, and the Holy One said: “Keep what is written in this Book, or be delivered to the sword.” (Eleazar, Lev. R., 35.6)

If you bring forth that which is within you, then that which is within you will give you life. If you do not bring forth that which is within you, then that which you do not bring forth will destroy you. (Gnostic Gospel of Thomas 70)


zenmind.com/corner.html has a story called Indra’s Dream, about a god who became a pig.

Here’s my fable on “the fear of flying”:

The Moth and the Caterpillars, by Luxin

When we are avoiding the truths of our potential Oneness and Happiness as one collective Being that is really God, it’s like this story:

A moth lands on a leaf and greets a caterpillar there, ‘Hello, brother, how is Life?’ The caterpillar replies ‘Brother? I’m not your brother! I don’t know you at all! And just fly away, will you? I’m busy munching!’ The caterpillar turned away, pleased that he had so many juicy leaves to munch, and that he had warded off that delusional moth who had undoubtedly only wanted to eat his leaves. As the moth took flight, for a moment he felt sad that his caterpillar brother didn’t recognize his own brother. The next moment, a bird descended and swallowed up the caterpillar.

Over many days, the moth greets a great many of his brothers, who respond in various ways. Many don’t realize the moth is their brother; there are some who know who he is, and say ‘Oh … yes … brother … ahh … I’ve thought about flying like you, but it’s just so nice munching these leaves’. The moth says, ‘Fine, but if you don’t fly eventually you will die, and your potential will die with you’.

The moth lands on the thousandth leaf and greets a caterpillar there, ‘Hello, brother, how is Life?’ The caterpillar stops munching and says, quietly, ‘Oh, brother … It’s good to see you! Well, I’ve been eating a lot, you know. What’s it like flying through the forest?’

[I said:
You want to fly. My question is will you? To move beyond illusion one must have a reference point; that reference is numbers. Pythagoras implied this, and I speak of it again.

You replied:
I would agree. For me the universe is material and functioning by universal laws that are mathematical. Why not start a thread on it. I’d like to read your thoughts on the matter.
]

Now I say:
Your suggestion is my command. I’ll start a thread, perhaps called “Mental Ilness and Mathematics”, short for “Healing Mental Ilness Outside the System with Qualitative Mathematics”, with my own story included. First some analysis and background regarding “where I’m coming from”:

No one should be revered, and no one should be a constant follower, because God or the Truth is in all of us; we are all potential leaders. “But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant”. (Matthew 23.8-11) False religion will exist to the extent that true religion goes unnoticed. True religion does not need an organization; it lives in the minds of those who have it. True religion does not need churches; the true church is the human body, the temple of the spirit of “God”, Spiritual Consciousness, or the True Self. True religion’s primary law, the Law of Love, and Reason that is the soul of Love, are the primary doctrine that is “written in the hearts of the devoted”. We all share a common, basic happiness or joy of living; Truth, Love, the “Key of Knowledge” (Luke 11.52) [the numbers key] and Humility allow the building of further levels of happiness.

If those with the Truth do not Love, they do not represent It, for Truth and Love are inseparable. “The truth is heavy, therefore its bearers are few” (Uceda, Midrash Samuel, 1579). Its bearers are unknown to the masses; once committed to Life, theirs is the work of Truth alone; they are detached, “In the world but not of it” as the Sufi saying goes; they are not trying to change or save the world as idealistic humanitarians do; they recognize the appalling suffering created by living “the Lie” – “There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death” (Prov.14:12) – but can only watch Nature’s retribution; the true ones are not ascetics, but enjoy all things in moderation; their only tools are Truth and Love; once committed, they have no choice but to serve the Truth or suffer. They serve not to escape suffering, but out of a universal love for all who suffer and seek the true comfort of Truth; they consider themselves greatly blessed and privileged. “To whom much is given, much is required” (Luke 12.48.) Those amongst them who have the slightest self-interest are humiliated by a process of Nature; it seems that only those with the highest intentions, true humility, and a true love and respect for the Divine in others are sustained by the Truth they find.

Their 20th century business organization effort to promote Truth produced a scandal-plagued group – the Kabalarian Philosophy, which is no more inspiring or tolerant than any false religion – from which many left, and from which the man who I consider to be the current unrecognized “leader-at-large”, Clayne Conings, was expelled for questioning the former leader’s ways (sex with numerous teenage girl “members”, for which he has served a 5-year jail term). There is still a considered unity of purpose between the Kabalarians and its former members, and, in the light of my statement regarding metaphorical Sophia’s esoteric compulsion of all of us to serve Truth one way or the other for Its own sake, a considered “transcendent” unity of all people and all religions. I put “transcendent” in quotes because the essential unity is only “transcendent” to false religionists in being beyond the scope of their “spiritual vision”; from the universal perspective of essential unity or inclusiveness, the antonym “immanence” applies to all things physical or conceptual.

Anyway, it’s fascinating how the cause of Truth (which “has Its own powerful agenda” as the spiritual Law of Truth) is inevitably advanced by forces that chose to oppose It and support the Lie, bringing all under endless scrutiny by thinkers who know that Truth is always advanced by the few who are too wary to be trapped by the inquisitional slaves of hierarchical church “power”. Undoubtedly millions have been persecuted and slaughtered for considered “heresy” after saying a tiny fraction of what I have said in this post. I delight in the action of philosophyforums.com who banned me from that site, saying my writing, which does reference the mathematical key, was “nutty” and “pseudo-philosophy”. This from alleged “philosophers” who presumably support the ancient philosophers Pythagoras and Plato. Pythagoras coined the term philosophy and is known as “the father of philosophy” [my interpretation not “Love of Wisdom”, but “Love Wisdom” the only way wisdom can be characterized in the context; IMO Pythagoras was a cunning symbolist], and who stated “Number is all”, and “Number is 'the principle, the source, and the root of all things”.

philosophyforums.com’s decision to transfer my posts from philosophy to religion before dismissing me was especially amusing considering Pythagoras’ quote that “philosophy was not merely an intellectual pursuit, but a way of life, the aim of which was the assimilation to God”. The Divine aspect of philosophy as it was originally set forth has no appeal to those who wish to reduce a study of the Divine beauty of life and people to a dull set of propositions and inferences. How proud I am to be in the company of implicit heretics like Pythagoras and Plato. He he he he he he he he he he, he he he… hee hee hee !! Oh my God.

‘Man realizes the divine by knowing the universal and divine principles which constitute the cosmos - i.e., for the Pythagoreans, Number. To know the cosmos is to seek and know the divine element within, and one must become divine and harmonized since only like can know like. From this perspective it also becomes obvious that philosophy is nothing other … than the care of the soul.’ (Guthrie, The Pythagorean Sourcebook and Library)

Guthrie writes of an “enigmatic statement of Heracleides that, according to Pythagoras, true happiness consists in knowledge of the perfection of the numbers of the soul” (q Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis ii, 84, The Pythagorean Sourcebook and Library)

Though most of Pythagoras’ comments regarding names, number and mind have been purged by translators who evidently considered such to be rubbish, the fractured and incomplete studies of numerology owe all their content to those who managed to save something from what number knowledge that did come forth from the Pythagoreans and other philosophers who came after.

Plato was deeply influenced by Pythagoras. In his Life of Pythagoras, Iamblichus repeats the statement of Plato that the study of the science of Numbers tends to awaken that organ in the brain which the ancients described as the “eye of wisdom” – the organ now known to physiology as the pineal gland. Speaking of the mathematical disciplines, Plato says in the Republic (Book VII), “the soul through these disciplines has an organ purified and enlightened, an organ better worth saving than ten thousand corporeal eyes, since truth becomes visible through this alone.”

“A man should come to resemble that with which it delights him to associate…Hence the philosopher through the association with what is divine and orderly (kosmios) becomes divine and orderly (kosmios) insofar as a man may” (Plato’s Republic)
[/quote]

Self as defined by family structure, Are you speaking Modern man or our ancestors, Cromagnon, etc.? Self and Ego I will give you my version of the purpose of ego. it is simple, survive, the individual must survive in order to propragate and improve the species. To aid in this we must have an ego or a self ego. To be an individual is more important on some levels, then the species and yet the species must be of the same level of importance if not another plane. One without the other makes both extinct. Yet as i said the individual must on some level be more important then the species as a whole. Why? fine tuning.

Competition brings out so much of our ego that it actually assists in the over all improvement of our species. Too much and you have problems.

Competition between religions is about as egotistical as one can get, that is a fine example of too much ego and competition. Yet it was that ego and competition that helped civilization to literacy and hope.

Sorry for having to disect the paragraph.

Our not too distant ancestors. All of western language comes from india, and there’s some evidence of peaceful yet complex cultural centers growing up in the ancient Indus river valley. At the same time, families all over the world are growing up into their own natures. There’s a movement from collective burial to individual burial of kings around 4000 years ago.

It is not clear that an ego is necessary for the individual to survive. Philosophers these days avoid talk of egos; they don’t believe in them, i think, precisely for this reason. Individuals in community, on the other hand, facilitate the continuity of the community only if they know their place.

Context, i suppose. I prefer to think of it as individual and community rather than individual and species; i’m no humanist, i suppose i’m a selfist.

The truth, true testimony, is important for fine tuning. The son of man is the next evolution, but we should talk meaningfully about whether that evolution is an individual or a collective transcendence.

I don’t think competition brings out ego; seems to me it overcomes it. I feel ego after the competition, when i have to live with the result and the reaction of my peers. If it’s competition for survival, i don’t feel ego at all.

Competition between religions is because of the secret groups; it serves their purpose; well, some of them. I do agree that ego and religion help humanity toward literacy; i’m loath to call it competition though, what do you think of teleological tennis?

Hi Luxin

You sure are a concerned person to put two weeks into analysis and criticism. I’m also very wary of cults and their effects on the needy but unwary.

Oneness is an important concept for me as well, and I’m convinced as it relates to re-birth or conscious evolution that it is the transcendent unity of the sacred teachings. Where many modern interpretations of old teachings refer to just yin and yang under various names, oneness includes the third force that reconciles these opposites creating individualities. It is an interesting thread we could share some time.

I’ll be watching for your thread. I’ve often considered music for example to be audial mathematics and music can both kill and heal so I’m curious as to your ideas.

True, but if we are so susceptible to self deception, we may not be able to actualize it. That is why IMO one must learn from one who has gone before. A church is just a place where people can congregate. There is also math in geometry and the shapes of old churches are designed to open the psyches of those within them. They create a certain awe by their design. This is also mathematical. I know churches have a bad connotation now amongst many but IMO it is not the fault of the church but the effects of certain power seeking people that become in positions of power.

I’ve also been an advocate of Philosophy being defined as the LOVE of wisdom as opposed to how it degenerated into the egotistic satisfactions from arguing the unprovable. I even began a thread called “Eulogy for Philosophy” expressing this tendency you seem to be aware of. I didn’t expect replies because it is very awkward to do.

ilovephilosophy.com/phpbb/vi … p?t=150399

Perhaps you might like to be part of a book discussion with me on this very topic. I agree with Jacob Needleman that the heart of philosophy has been lost to a great extent. His ideas are included in his book “The Heart of Philosophy.” If we could get a minimum of four people to read and discuss it intelligently and with a heart, it could be rewarding.

amazon.com/gp/product/158542 … 09?ie=UTF8

There are ways to search inside to get a feel of then book but by what you’ve written, I believe you would be very open to it. I was thinking at some point to entice maybe four people to discuss it. By making the book the center it makes it easier to stay on this topic which I believe is extremely important.

Would you be interested in such an online book discussion. If Ben didn’t want it here, I’m sure other places would be open to a discussion on such an important topic in regards the field and direction of philosophy itself.

Jacob Needleman is a brilliant and highly regarded man and not associated with any cults. He is Professor of Philosophy at San Francisco State University so it is above board. He just happens to have a heart. This assures that we are discussing and no one is cult recruiting.

So let me know if you’d like to be a part. It is not just for us but I believe that there are many that feel this lack but are afraid to speak up. It would be good for them to know that there are kindred spirits.

I remember when I read this interview I felt bad since I know it to be true but it doesn’t have to be.

conversations.org/jerry_n.htm

Why all this fear? How can we even take ideas like the transcendent unity seriously in the presence of such fear? Something went wrong somewhere and frankly I believe more should be open to discuss it even at the cost of annoying the “intellectuals.” There is something very unnatural and harmful that is developing because of this neglect. This is why I believe that "Heart of Philosophy"would make an excellent online book discussion at some point.

July 14, 2006

Hi Nick,

Though I admire your fine qualities and thoughts and have enjoyed my visit at ILP (I just ‘drop in’ once in a while), I’m not interested in any project in which a book cost is involved. So I’ll be off again now, leaving you with:

Nasrudin was invited to give a discourse to the inhabitants of a nearby village. He mounted the rostrum and began.
"O people, do you know what I am about to tell you?"
Some rowdies, seeking to amuse themselves, shouted, "No!"
"In that case", said the Mulla with dignity, I shall abstain from trying to instruct such an ignorant community."
The following week, having obtained an assurance from the hooligans that they would not repeat their remarks, the elders of the village again prevailed upon Nasrudin to address them.
"O people", he began again, "do you know what I am about to say to you?"
Some of the people, uncertain as to how to react, for he was gazing at them fiercely, muttered "Yes".
"In that case", retorted Nasrudin, "there is no need for me to say more". He left the hall.
On the third occasion, when a deputation had again visited him and implored him to make one further effort, he presented himself before the assembly.
"O people! Do you know what I am about to say?"
Since he seemed to demand a reply, the villagers shouted, "Some of us do, and some of us do not".
"In that case", said Nasrudin as he withdrew, "let those who know tell those who do not".

Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know.

Keep your mouth closed.
Guard your senses.
Temper your sharpness.
Simplify your problems.
Mask your brightness.
Be at one with the dust of the earth.
This is primal union.

He who has achieved this state
Is unconcerned with friends and enemies,
With good and harm, with honor and disgrace,
This therefore is the highest state of man.

(Lao Tzu, Chap. 56, Tao Te Ching, trans. Gia Fu-Feng)


A truly good man is not aware of his goodness,
And is therefore good.
A foolish man tries to be good,
And is therefore not good.

A truly good man does nothing, [which is not called for]
Yet leaves nothing undone.
A foolish man is always doing, [things he thinks are important]
Yet much remains to be done.

(Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching, 38)


It appears that the desire to be noticed is one of the strongest desires.

Yet it’s still good to mingle and communicate, for “He who does not mingle with the crowd knows nothing”.

My prayer is that I take note of these things. It seems likely, that when my priorities are well followed, that I will outgrow ILP as I have outgrown one cult. I am now in a cult of 2 at one level, and a cult of billions at the other extreme. One day I may be in a cult of one. But as long as there is someone at the same level, they are also in the same cult, whether you know them or not and whether they are alive or dead.

Because we are social beings, we are all members of some kind of cult. It’s just a matter of which cult you find yourself in according to your level of growth. To be afraid of cults or their members means both a lack of individuality and, because of fear, the inability to merge with and learn something from others. To be afraid of a cult is to be afraid of oneself; afraid of humanity; afraid of challenges, growth and life itself.

What becomes clear is that, no matter what stage we’re at, if we do not outgrow and evolve, we stagnate. If we stagnate, we may devolve to a “subhuman state”.

I have changed my mind about doing a thread on the numbers.

All the best to you.

Hi Luxin

So you are also a fan of that rascally sage Mullah Nasrudin. Sufi humor will either lead towards enlightenment or the madhouse. :slight_smile:

Ya gotta love it. :slight_smile:

Too bad you’re leaving so soon. “Cult” has a specific meaning for me and is opposite say of a legitimate esoteric school. Where the cult is easy to get into and hard to leave, the esoteric school is hard to get into and easy to leave. The reason is that a real esoteric school helps man become himself while the cult takes advantage of our needs and how they make us gullible. So where the esoteric school requires the critical mind, the cult creates a conditioned mind

I agree. But if oneself is weak, it is perhaps good to be wary of cults and concern oneself first with becoming psychologically stronger to realistically discriminate.

True. Nothing stays the same. We are either serving the process of evolution or involution. But in all fairness, it is a long process if not hastened by our stupidity. It would take a lot of sincere dedication as advised in certain cults to speed up our devolution into a subhuman state.

This is why the first step in what I regard as sanity in these matters is not to change anything but just open ourselves to the frightening task of trying gently to witness ourselves; not to judge or to change, but just acknowledge and openly experience what is there even with an attitude of self forgiveness if it helps. If one finds fear, the idea isn’t to condemn it but to acknowledge it as in saying “so this is fear” “Know Thyself.” This is different then being led and told only serving to making a dependent slave of someone through fear as cults often do.

Again, this is how I see cults and their differences from esoteric schools. My guess is that you’ve had some rough experiences. If too personal and you’d prefer discussing in a PM if at all, feel free to do so. You seem like a good person and I’d hate to see you fall victim to what seeks to take advantage out there in the world…

July 16, 2006

Hi Nick,

Though I am not wise, it is said “A wise man changes his mind”. This is my self-reproof. I apologize, more to my Self than you, for being a bit of a self-righteous bastard (hehehehe…) in thinking I should move on. I enjoy our dialogue. I was thinking like a cult member afraid to live and be challenged. Enough of that. I shall engage or evaporate. Witnessing what happens to those who are unable to live truth is quite scary. So Zorba’s words shall guide me: “Life is trouble. Only death is not. To be alive is to undo your belt and look for trouble.” I only fully appreciate this quote now: To be able to say how much you love is to love but little. (Petrarch) I have been telling people I loved them a lot; it’s quite true. I realized a friend loved me just as much but didn’t say it; he proved it in some way without words. This is spoken of in an interesting page:

hermes-press.com/Perennial_T … lectic.htm

I would like to participate in an online review of Jacob Needleman’s book. I shall order it when you give the word. I just have to make my engagement at ILP or wherever once a week because of other activities we all have.

And I will stir up heaps of trouble (muttering and steaming I can hear already, hehehe) by presenting my thread (Ben willing) called, in full, “Healing Mental Illness Outside the System Through Qualitative Mathematics”. Some may literally GO mental if they read it. (hehehe times 19, quiver quiver, 6 coughs). Excuse me, laughter therapy completes my day.

Yes, “Ah seen a world o’ trouble, son”, as one might say in the Deep South. Clayne, my friend, was in the core group of the Kabalarians; their story from his perspective is fascinating and very instructive; they just are as they are; we intuited the trouble; took the best teaching; evolved to the point of individuation; and departed one way or the other. I was always like an observer or fly on the wall; I didn’t miss much, though I came and went with multi-year periods of absence. Clayne and I are survivors, and would not have missed any of the whole experience, which forced us to grow or be “buried alive”. We are in unity with the Kabalarians, wanting the same thing but viewing things differently, just as all religions are essentially and esoterically unified though illusively and outwardly separated. We are appreciative of the knowledge that Alfred J. Parker left to the world; there is a mystery about Alfred that I may never solve, but it doesn’t matter. Life goes on, and it’s for the living.

Hi Luxin

I agree. Hell I was married once and survived all the challenges. :slight_smile:

This reminds me several years ago when some young woman tried to recruit me into Scientology and patiently began trying to explain what she felt were deep esoteric ideas to me. I like to attend presentations of different attempts just to understand the psychology of the attraction. They all contain elements of truth but invariably go wrong at specific places and most often Man’s “nothingness.” But as the saying goes: “Rat poison is 98% good corn.” One must know how to find the arsenic.

Within a short time I had her both frustrated and confused. The biggest challenge for her was to try and understand what I meant by insisting that she had both an essential self and an acquired personality that dominated her essential self. I suggested that she was only appealing to her personality and that her personality should become a tool of her essential self rather than replace it if she is concerned with reality. She did not understand the difference even theoretically. Since then I read how Jacob Needleman described it in “Lost Christianity” I even posted the excerpt from the book on this board:

ilovephilosophy.com/phpbb/vi … acornology

I know these cults seek to strengthen the personality and sometimes do great damage to the unwary by starving their essential selves that need to and can grow for the sake of strengthening ones imagination of spirituality and attachment to external values.

This is the inner harm of cults. Of course they can take your money and make one dependent for a while but this can be gotten over. The inner damage of using exercises initially designed to open oneself for the unconscious purpose of strengthening ones imagination and defense of this imagination is the real worry. There is some rough Karma associated with this. But I notice how defensive she was and others in the past have been that I’ve met who were involved in one sort of cult or another and that defensiveness and the wall created would put a Fundamentalist to shame.

Actually in regards to this thread, this lack of understanding as to our own psychology referred to in Acornology is one of the main reasons religions cannot get beyond the exoteric. The esoteric side of religion deals with our essential selves and that seed which grows through consciousness. But our personality gets a hold of the idea and naturally thinks it already is a finished product and is “us”, and since it is dominant, leads to all sorts of religious oddities.

There is an essay section on this site and feel free to post an essay. Simone Weil valued math in the way Plato and Pythagoras did. If you are interested you may like this link I found:

72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:vuk … love&hl=en

Thanks for the dialectic link. there are some very deep ideas within it. I’ve known through other sources of the deep esoteric side often overlooked inn these teachings but I learned some new insights from the article.

But the central idea you bring about the value of math for healing seems good to me. But when the body is put on a pedestal and the spiritual side is sacrificed unknowingly to the joys of imagination and the defense of the pedestal, I become concerned. It can create an imbalance that is hard to rectify.

No, there are plenty of religions that do not attempt to explain what cannot be explained. Confucianism qualifies as a religion, but there is not any effort to somehow inquire into that which is beyond explanation. Religions of this sort gather their understanding from empirical observation and rational analysis of the world, not by appealing to supernatural authority that only provides an answer that is ultimately meaningless words. They are more philosophical than superstitious.

your story about the young lady reminded me about an incident 2 decades ago, My husband and I were attending a midnight showing of Rocky Horror, Folks were gathering around partying and socializing before the theater opened. About 30 minutes before the theater opened a truck load of christian youths pull up in the midst of us, armed with pamphlets and the word of god. i have full respect for any religion and you can preach at me till you are blue in the face, i will smile and respect your words and thoughts.

But, this was most definately an ill thought out excursion for these kids. Their hearts were in the right place but, the wrong time. If you never attended a RH showing at least drive by and take a look at the folks that are waiting to go in. Not the most reverent crowd. Just the opposite. These young christians girls and boys were in tears by the time they gave up. I could have kicked the adults that encouraged this. None were harmed physically but mentally it was a cruel thing for them. I admit to not being particularly patient with the two that spoke to us but, we just dismissed them. Others were not so kind. there was some few humorous aspects of the event but mostly sad. Even the RHers that were tough on the kids exclaimed about how foolish and cruel the adults had been to bring the kids there.

These poor kids had no idea what they were up against.

These kids were lambs to slaughter, no doubt the adults in charge thought it would be a good experience for them. How wrong they were.

Kriswest

I know, I know. It breaks me up sometimes when I see these things. People will say who am I to think this way; I’m an elitist. Well so I’m an elitist. People are used all the time because of the hunger of the heart and need to fit in. I’m glad you didn’t make fun of them because they don’t know any better. If it makes me elitist to spot cult mentality and feel bad for it rather than bask in ridicule, I plead guilty as charged.

Dear Kriswest and Nick,

The “forces of control”, which are unconscious and therefore of no evil intent, and at a certain level not worth creating conspiracy theories about, are holding us back because most of us are unable to sense the 2% poison in the perfectly good corn (hehe, thanks for that Nick).

It’s always the “word of man” that creeps in to lay all that is potentially fine and beautiful to waste. One of those kids may realize how much they have been a pawn, and then anything is possible in terms of growth.

  1. God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
  2. And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
  3. That no flesh should glory in his presence.
    (1 Cor. 1.27-29)

“Flesh” to me means the illusion that we can do what we want, treat people, our kids, our “flock” if we are a minister, like we want, presuming that we have the right to do so. Those in hierarchical groups come to believe they are like God. They are God, but “behaving like Satan”. They don’t know who they are. They are controlled by what my friend Clayne calls “the forces that demand conformity”.

Hi Nick,

Thanks for the acornology topic url. It’s nice that you and Jacob are at least referring, with other “less threatening descriptions” to the True Self or Spiritual Consciousness as referred to in the Bhagavad Gita.

It can just be called spirit of course, only slightly less threatening. The amount of fear about what we actually are is, as you pointed out earlier using Jacob’s real life experience with students who are literally dying for some truth. Jacob is not offering truth, but he knows it’s there. I am offering truth, which only a “mathematical philosopher” can do, for all things including consciousness are and must logically be, to anyone who believes in an orderly and mathematical universe.

Thank you for encouraging me to present something on math and consciousness. I wonder if you read my thread on John Wayne Gacy the “monster-angel”. I did an analysis of John in it. Most of us don’t want truth as it is heavy and we fear we can’t bear it. The truth is that there are challenges to face that are only for the few brave enough. I wonder myself how much I can bear, but I have no choice. Truth is my master. I know this sounds like the ravings of a lunatic to many who think they can see life clearly but are actually seeing the head of a pin clearly. I always write for the few who might get what I’m saying, and I’m not concerned in the slightest with what the majority think. I realize that even though I may not share much of what I call truth, it is my sincerity that will come across. Some will think, how can he say that and go on and on about it? He must be deluded. So I’m dismissed. I love it.

I would like to share one thing, about how octave harmonics, the first two numbers of consciousness, and men and women are at least theoretically in perfect harmony. I may have said it before. Honestly (as always I hope) when you invite me to present something there is a little thought that I would make an effort and … little Luxin lamb to the slaughter (not that I would care). My ego is being tested these days I guess, but since I have very little left it seems, I feel safe. I’ve never had so many compliments on my guitar playing at the jam sessions, and with that a complement of people who are jealous and actually physically harrassing me makes my study of human nature that much more interesting.

I’m talking to you for all the world to see because I know the importance of being and showing one is real. Besides, there is nothing to fear. Something tells me that these sincere revelations could cause more folks to scratch their heads than any well presented essay. If people want truth they’re gonna have to humble themselves, change course. I think all I’m about now is love, because without love truth is nothing, useless. In my way, this is reaching out, showing that I love, not saying it. It’s a yearning for oneness, a thing that conditioning is not allowing. No I don’t do things in the right place, and though I say I do as I’m told, I cannot.

Here’s the lyrics of a slow blues I wrote and sing called “The Love That You Don’t Give”. I get teary singing it and people know; it doesn’t bother me. People need reality. They can seek out the truth like I did…

The Love That You Don’t Give

Slow standard 12-bar blues (has ‘fast 4’)
Debut Yale July 2006, Ellie on bass, Chris, organ, Simon, harp, George, guitar, Steve, drums
(Did in A: sounded fine; Michael recorded) (“for”: Kasandra Sarter)

I tell you people, the truth is all around
I tell you people, the truth is all around
The love that you don’t give
Is the same love that’s gonna put you down.

I’ll give you the truth
Coz I’m your friend
The love that you don’t give
Is gonna be your end
I tell you people, the truth is all around
The love that you don’t give
Is the same love that’s gonna put you down.

Lonely men and women
Deathly afraid
Gonna take their love
Right to their grave
I tell you people, the truth is all around
The love that you don’t give
Is the same love that’s gonna put you down.

BREAK…

I’m givin’ you the truth
Glory be to me!
The love that you give
Just might set you free
I tell you people, the truth is all around
The love that you don’t give
Is the same love that’s gonna put you down.

I tell you the truth
Coz I’m your friend
The day that fear ends
Is the day that life begins
I tell you people, the truth is all around
The love that you don’t give
Is the same love that’s gonna put you down.

Yours,

Luxin