About the existence of spirits

14th April 2006
21 Grams
I recently took part in a debate with Ross Hemsworth (see: Audiomartini) hosted by Rick Wood. During the debate Ross mentioned that something on this website was incorrect. Surely not? Specifically Ross drew my attention to the following;

“Mia also seemed to think that immediately after death the human body weighs just a tiny bit less. This weight loss being due to the departing of the spirit body. Chris French assured her this was not true.” (Original commentary here)

The point I made at the time was that this is absolutely correct in that Chris French really did assure her this wasn’t true. However I confess I didn’t really know much about the actual research Mia Dolan was alluding to – so I decided to look into it.

The original experiment was carried out by Dr Duncan MacDougall who worked in Haverhill , Massachusetts . The experiment was carried out in 1907 (not 1926 as Ross thought in the interview) when the good doctor set up a weighing machine and a specially converted hospital bed. He ran six human experiments in all having carefully selected patients who were unlikely to thrash about while they were dying.

His basic premise was that ‘souls’, if they existed, should have substance because if they hadn’t then how could the personality survive with nothing to support it. In his own words it had to be a “space-occupying substance”. Interestingly it was a similar question posed by myself that lead Ross to mention this example. The problem is whether the ‘soul’ (and indeed much paranormal phenomena) is physical or non-physical. If it is non-physical how can it interact with physical material? How could a ghost reflect light so that you could see it or a spirit cause a change in temperature? Alas, despite all the mediums in contact with the dead, this has never been explained. On the other hand if the soul is physical, and if it weighs 21 grams it must be, why can it not be detected by science?

Dr MacDougall results were not entirely consistent. His first patient showed a loss of three quarters of an ounce (which I make 21.26214234375 grams). The next was somewhat difficult to ascertain as he was unsure as to the exact moment of death, nevertheless a small weigh loss was recorded. The third lost and ounce at the point of death but, strangely, lost another ounce a few minutes later. He felt the forth test didn’t provide accurate data and the but the fifth was rather interesting in that the patient initially lost three eighths of an ounce when he died only to put it back on again. Subject number six was also declared null and void as the patient rather inconsiderately died before the weighing machine was ready.

So in essence this piece of paranormal folklore boils down to not very much. In fact only the very first experiment seems to fit the description so often quoted.

One other aspect worthy of mention is that most spiritualists claim that animals also live on after death (Derek Acorah certainly does) but this does not concur with Dr MacDougall’s own findings. He did the same experiment using 15 dogs (which were obviously destroyed as part of the experiment) and found there was no corresponding loss of weight.

Questions have inevitably arisen as to the accuracy of this experiment. How do you decide the exact point of death? How accurate was the equipment? And so on.

However it should be pointed out that even if the body is shown to loose weight at the point of death it cannot automatically be assumed that this is due to the departing of the soul. If such a loss does occur and we aren’t sure why then all that can be claimed is ignorance. However this small scale experiment conducted 100 years ago doesn’t really allow any meaningful conclusion to be drawn but that won’t stop people from doing it.

The term ’21 Grams’ comes from the film of the same name starring Sean Penn. In this we are told, “They say we all lose twenty-one grams at the exact moment of our death. Everyone, twenty-one grams. The weight of a stack of five nickels. The weight of a chocolate bar. The weight of a hummingbird.”

Poetic but not true.

Lots of links on this subject.

~

More about the issue here:
madsci.org/posts/archives/20 … .Gb.r.html

My own ideas here:

Tulpians:

Tulpians are “made of” wave-consciousness, but they tend to have only 1 simple layer of energy/self. Consciousness and behavior can be an algorythmic wave structure. Omnipresent forms of energy-flow can be used to maintain the functionality of wave-consciousness, or… It is self-powered somehow. If it were self-powered, it would be its own physical sub-law, and its own existence would be its rule. Ofcourse physical laws are forms of behavior of structure. Neo matter & neo energy can have their own physical laws. It’s all a question of structure.

Spirits:

Spirits are “made of” multi-dimensional energies. Wave-consciousness, imprinted upon more then one layer/kind of energy/dimension.

~

Must now go sleep, I’m tiered.

Did the test take into consideration the loss of bladder and bowel contents at death and the weight of gasses from lungs and bowels at the time the muscles relax at death? Lungs expel final gas at death before death there is a certain amount of gas in reserve in the lungs. Urine and feces add loss along with gas that comes from feces loss.

Every artist must struggle with his or her given tools. We must continue to attempt to find ways to talk about the ineffible or else… something.

Beyond posting our pet theories I don’t know what else we might discover here.

Sure, why not.

What, psychology isn’t a science any more? (If it ever was.)

Hi xander,

I think that the dilemma is that whatever this phenom is goes past words. I can think of no way to express anything substantive other than I recognize through my own experiences something similar. But what that is and how similar ends up as another ‘what is god’ discussion.

Frustrating, that.

I dunno JT. There is always expression of experience. It is only when we experience that we are able to express, the words aren’t really important.

A

tentative,

I think it is the false novelty that comes from being cut off from any tradition. JT, what you and I have both experienced has been experienced before. If either of us had been raised in a tradition that acknowledged that experience we would have some given framework in which to place it. We are outside of those traditions and can gather some information from them but we cannot full cross over and become a member of those traditions. We are perpetual outsiders.

Still I would not have thought of decribing it that way without this discussion.

If that were the case then these spirits wouldn’t matter at all. At least not to me. I also doubt that would matter much to anyone. If they have no capacity to reach out then they are very powerless.

That description isn’t consistant with my description. I don’t have to do anything like tuning in to percive the spirits. I can do that, but it isn’t necessary. There are places and time when they make their presence known.

It sounds like you are saying that everyone PINGS spirits, but I have a uncommon capacity to detect the PING that comes back?

Maybe I am participating in this in a way that I cannot percieve. There still remains the sensation that they desire to be addressed.

That might be part of it but it doesn’t provide a complete explination. What about object likes stone or trees in rarely accessed areas? Those didn’t get any kind of charge from a living person.

Agreed their utility is limited in one sense, but their real value may lie in their mere existance and mere contact. A greater awareness of a world that is more alive than we usually take it.

Can’t be my third eye. I cannot see these spirits, in any sense of that word. I can only feel them. While my ordinary eyes work fine I am even blind in my dreams.

I have met some super-spirits. They are like many little spirit working in concert together. They are powwrful, and dangeroua as is anything that is powerful, but not a threat.

LA,

Agreed. But often the experience doesn’t translate into words at all. You may say you have had an experience that is like… and I may say that I have had a similar experience that is like… but the true expression comes when we look deeply into each others eyes and know that the other knows, and the silence is the confirmation.

xander,

I mentioned earlier that I understood coastal indian clan identifiers of animal origin. I could talk about it all day, but the understanding is having stood in the eery darkness and silence of an old growth cedar forest and literally feel the presence of… whatever it is. I can say I have experienced, but expressing what that experience is get’s lost, because the words spoken have next to nothing to do with what is or was the experience.

It sounds like the blathering of idiocy because we live in a world of knowing and invest our knowing in words. You’ve listened to me talk endlessly about knowing we do not know. While I find much of that true for myself personally, another part is that we can know, but we can only know personally, that word expression fails us. You may express that you know, but not what you know because there isn’t words for your experience. This sounds terribly convoluted but it isn’t. It is simply the recognition of the limits of language.

JT,

Confirmation is not necessary. You know what you know. Also you know that I know something without ever having looked into my eyes. Looking into another’s eyes relies heavily on our physicality. You know that I know something purely from my words. Not the words themselves but they way I string them together.

Not that I know much really, but you know…I have some experience.

A

LA,

I can know that you know something and sometimes the string of words “resonates” with something I know as well, but at best I can know that you know. Anything beyond that just might be erroneous. Assuming is the devils playground. I have learned to avoid that as much as possible. You know?

Yeah I know.

Might the ‘resonates’ part not include intuition which would be outside the realm of assumption and inside the realm of faith and self knowledge?

A

Yes, of course, intuition is a strong part of any knowing of the knowing of another. Still, it is possible that our intuition can be wrong. One must intuit intent and then trust that intuition. Occasionally, our intuition fails us, or we fail the intuition. The line between reading intent and reading into intent is a fine line. I suppose one does the best they can, but there is much room for error when attempting to know beyond word expression.

Of course, this is just my experience. You may see more clearly than others.

The very nature of intuition means that it cannot be wrong. It is the second guessing that gets in the way.

I would say that word expression is expressing what we know, there is therefore no need to go beyond word expression. The knowing comes first.

I wouldn’t go that far JT. I would say though that some of us trust ourselves more than others. When we read, we don’t only read the words, we also read our bodies.

Anyway, about the existence of spirits…

A

And as long as words are capable of adequate expression everything is fine. But some experiences have no adequate word expressions, and it has nothing to do with whether you know, but expessing the knowing in signs and symbols that are not the reality of the experience.

I understand reading with confidence that which is reading, but the possibility of reading into should give one pause. Perhaps you’ve not experienced a misreading, but I have. It isn’t about confidence in my intuitive capacities. It is in knowing the limits of those capacities.

Knowing the limits of those capaciites, you’ve just drawn your boundaries. We limit ourselves when in reality we are limitless. It is the limitless part of you that 'picks up on these spirit beings you are speaking of. Not the limted part of you.

A

Yes. The boundaries of intuitive knowing are there. For each in greater or lesser degrees. I have known no one who has not reached their boundaries and have failed. If I have gathered anything, it is in understanding limits.

Response to your edit:

It is entirely possible to sense things beyond cognition, but the source of that sensing is questionable. I say I have sensed a presence or understanding or knowing beyond cognition and words. What ever this sensing is, it is beyond or outside self. Is this possible? Yes.

It is also possible that the mind has generated a powerful illusion which in turn has brought strong emotion so that I ‘feel’ the presence of… whatever it is. Is this possible? Yes.

So which is reality, and how would I know? Perhaps we are limitless, I don’t know. But to say we are limitless is a leaving of our humaness. I find this difficult to accept. I go back to my statement that one must be constantly aware of what is reading and what is reading into. In a way, it is the dreaming butterfly analogy, which is it’s own statement of our limitations. Faith can carry us, but carry us where? Into transcendental reality or into ever more complex illusion?

You missunderstand what I mean. It is only illusory to the effect that they are reaching out to you. If you would carefully read over my post you would notice that I am saying their “reaching out” is only reactionary from your energy accessing them. You did not notice that your energy accessed them but you DID notice them giving you a reply. In this fashion it is only an illusion to reaching out because they are only responding, and not reaching.

My description may not be easily understood but that was the impression I got from your coments. In many ways there is no requirement to tune for perception, I was only providing example.

Thats about a good analogy as any, so yes!

Its not that you cant perceive this, its just that since you always give on energy you typically tend to ignore it more than when you receive. Your simply a more unique case were you notice received/responded energies more than others. This is prevailent in people who have practice arcane, or some form of mental or physical martial art.

We are not giving off energy to charge we are only giving it off to interact. And were people are not at… other animals, objects are… so therefore they are typically keep busy by them.

Agreed

There are other who report being able to visually notice such energies. Cant honestly say if this is true or not. I have not noticed energy flow with my eye either. I have felt them.

Those warnings are serious. You cannot trust things that go beyond your own ability to intially understand. Remember… they have experience in these matters where you do not. Proceed most causiously. In most cases you will not need their help. And it is best when offered blindly and not asked for. Trouble arises from requests.

You may have yet to notice… but you just like the rest are sealed. Dont be fooled by misunderstanding. If you really broke those limits then you would not be here!

Only 2 things happen when that seal is touched. Pain or death.

None of the either side of us are limitless.