One morning Chuang Tzu awoke from his sleep. Coming before his students, he said, “Last night I dreamt that I was a beautiful butterfly fluttering through the fields. Now I awaken. My question is this; how do I know if I am Chuang Tzu, who dreamt himself a butterfly, or if I am a butterfly, now dreaming itself Chuang Tzu?”
After 2000+ years, there still is no answer. ALL is subjective. We construct whatever ‘sense of’ we like. We make fine distinctions of subjective/objective - all inside our subjective constructs. We continue to divide the universe into tinier divisions and proclaim we know. We search and seek and throw up our illusive walls of intuitive “knowing”. We call ourselves ‘wise’.
“…learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.â€
Your mind may be “subjective”, but your material body is purely objective, being controlled by the subjective, though the controller is a physical object.
Chuang Tzu has a very poor concept of reality. This is reality, and the butterfly is the dream. Its not difficult to figure out nor it is reasonable to assume it is a farce.
Our form of though is significantly advanced enough to perceive reality. We can tell the difference between fake and real, its just that some people hate the real enough to misslead themselves into being fake!
I’d ask you to prove your point, given that the best minds of the last two millenia have failed to penetrate the paradox, but I don’t think it would make any difference. You’re statement suggests that you already know everything real. You have no questions, only answers.
Then let me put it to you in this fashion. If you yourself cannot fathom the difference then how are you able to provide contratiction against me?
Also, have you ever became aware in Dream state? I have! Perhaps these so called “Great Minds” were not so great to have never pierced their own deceptions.
I have become aware in dream state, and I have understood fully the concequeses of it! I know for a fact I am correct. And a bit of proof to you! If this is your dream state explain the clarity of your thought! You now are aware of this, and being YOUR dream then you will have absolute control over it! In this fashion you can force ALL before you to be bound to your will!
Now all you have to do is force me to agree with you and you will know it to be a dream!
Your own argument cut themselves down. When you have mastered your dreams even once you will know of what I speak! The reality is here, and yet this is not the only one. Regardless of your perception this is not the dream.
So called great minds who are only great because of the lesser around them who are too ignorant to know better! No man is greater in mind or body than the next!
Isn’t it a simple fact that the paradox is the mirror of our dilemma? Knowing that we are incomplete and lacking is also a Christian teaching. What tentative is showing is that we observe a subjective reality and neglect the other side without knowing spontaneously which, if only one, is true - let alone understanding that objective reality is probably a combination of both.
No rant. But I must ask. Why is that everyone has to act the way you guys do when someone like me comes along? I am sure of what I know and somehow that offends people to the point of calling me closeminded, fundie, biased, bigoted or in your case a ranter.
I see therefore I recognize. In so many ways I have been there and done that! Why is it that you guys are so “closeminded” to accept that I have already found out the truth? How is it that I MUST be the one in the wrong? You all yourselves proclaim ignorance and still you offer up that I am wrong or not seeing the point. How can the ignorant contend with the knowing?
If you WANT to sound valid at least stop offering up your own ignorance. Just because you dont know does not mean others do not! I cannot help that I have already looked and found out! Is it so wrong for me to run by and give you that information? Because if it is, then they need to stop asking the questions or putting their thoughts out there for comment.
I know my limits! Do you see me giving you the 411 on how the universe was created? Apart from what was given to us? No. Do I claim knowledge that God said we will never have? No. No one knows everything. I am just as limited as the rest of you. But I have already learned and wised up to the fact that most of the questions are not really questions. But answers instead. Notwithstanding that those with the questions instead unknowingly clouding the path that leads to knowledge and understanding.
Paradox is NOT the mirror of our dilemma! Its all really smoke and mirrors to those you have yet to understand. Things are not as they appear and people just cant seem to get over it. So what do they do? They get all mystical about it. Are we not tired of the same ole same ole? Where people keep doing this? When will we wake up? Christ was right! Most people just simply will not see!
I’m sorry, but you are spraying all over the place. You are simply ignoring the obvious.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the OP. It has nothing to do with external considerations, but internal deliberation of certainty - or the lack there of.
You’ve become aware in a dream state. Or perhaps your mind merely created the illusion of awareness. A dream of not dreaming. How do you know? What is the basis of certainty that you have ‘pierced your own deceptions’?
I’m sure you’re convinced, but that certainty you profess is still subject to the illusion of mind.
I think your reply fairly states that you or anyone is incapable of understanding reality period. In this fashion it is not possible to help you with my knoledge.
While some people have indeed been lost to their own illusions I am not. My predictions, understanding, and reasonings have always been correct.
My punishment for wisdom is never being understood. All it has ever been is pain to me. I look upon the world and am only saddened by my apparent lack of ability to help people understand.
There is no mistake about reality and the differences in dream state. To borrow a phrase… I can’t remember the progenitor… but it goes a little something like this.
All things being relative, the simplist of answers usually wind up being correct.
I am sure someone can come and correct that passage with the right one and even the Author of it. But my point being is that you have looked so far beyond reality that you have begun to ignore reality. In dream you do not know reality, and in reality you DO know dream. The one with the superior understanding is always the dominant. And when in dream if you become aware of reality you leave the dream or become its master! Not a difficult concept, and it directly applies to what you mean, no matter how hard you wish it not to apply.
In so many ways you have become in the middle. Here is something that might help to put things into perspective.
When I began my journey the trees were trees and the mountains were mountains. In the middle of my journey the mountains were trees and the trees, mountains. At the end of my journey the Mountains were mountains and the trees were trees.
Take that passage for all it is worth, because it signifies the throwing away of his knowledge in the middle to either relearn or try to undestand something he wishes was there. After he finds that it was no illusion and that what he has lost was indeed good then he can appreciate it that much more! After this the wisdom comes.
The subconscious mind uses symbolic images to express itself to the conscious, but these images are in the form of memories. A person can only dream he is a butterfly once he has witnessed its life and can estimate what its life is like. By then, he would have had allot more time to witness other animals aswel, and would realize he is not an animal.
They don’t want realists to rain on their parade.
Also, be careful not to insult Eastern HappyCrappy.
All of our “subjective” illusions [fear being the largest, second being pleasure] – these illusions are natural instincts which were born out of real physical situations [of natural selection]. “Subjective” is an inter-changable tool, used to deal with the world in a non-nutral way. As human instincts backfire, spiritual existentialists tend to move backward towards nutralities, as they seek virtues of “peace” and “humility”.
Realizing the potential error of an instinct, then trying to compinsate.
ALl just part of the human condition. An imperfect, self-aware machine, with a very limited ability to control itself.
I don’t think that the paradox of the matrix would have gotten as much respect, even though it has equal merit. People basically say: “Wait a minute, is this real?” – and then they start up with all the crazy new ideas.
What’s strange is the style of spiritual realists vs atheist realists… One seems rather sugar-coated, and easier to swallow.
Very good points. But I would like to add that the matrix theme is IMPOSSIBLE. And let me prove why!
Your physical bodies sensations provide a great deal of your reality. As powerful as the mind can be it will never be able to compete full time like your body can with reality. Why? Because not only does the mind have to create this reality it will also have to work to bind itself to its subject rules and provide backdrops to support it. In reality all the mind does is merely reactionary to reality, because it is not working to support the structural fabric of the reality, it is only contending with it.
Also much of our thought processes are chemical/hormone driven. While we still can override these chemical thoughts they do provide quite a substantial impact on reality compared to dream.
Our bodies alone are enough proof alone of what reality is. Being subjective otherwise only shows that persons ignorance of biochemistry.
Sorry if I offended you, but did you notice how many exclamation marks you had in the post I was answering to?
Is there a possibility that “we†have a dilemma, not just you? Can you see that you are playing the polarity game and making a right and wrong out of something that is saying that we have a subjective perception? We are not talking about “ignorance†but question the “knowledge†that people profess to have. The ancients were careful about what the claimed to “know†and recognised that there was nothing that they truly knew, but only more questions.
Of course there are things with which we feel comfortable and deal with every day, which help us build our daily life. But how often are we confronted with something that doesn’t conform or is a sensorial illusion? Have you ever considered what people experience when a part of their mental framework has a malfunction? Everything is questioned then, even with partial and temporary malfunctions. It is a healthy scepticism if you adopt a regular introspection.
Even Paul says (1Co 13:9), “… we know in part …†so why get all excited?
LOL… naw… people tell me that I use them tooo much. I am a spirited person so I add them to help present myself. It does not always go over well.
And on a side note please to not offer to appologize for offending me. I am not a thin skinned wimp like some people around here. I can handle being heavily insulted. Your opinion is just that, and your entitled to what ever opinion you wish to have. The rest of us who dont like it just need to go home and cry to mommie!
Yes, I agree that I am very polarizing. And intentionally so. I am not a fake or a fraud, and I am secure and knowledgeable about what I believe so I wont play beat-around-the-bush like many others so they can claim an escape route when they have their game called. It would be real funny if an instructor at a Unversity taught class like the acients right?
Well class. Just to be careful here it looks like a battery works when the 2 metals combine with the liquide to form a chemical reaction that draws out electrons… but hey… we really dont know anything.
I know, but everyone could care less. Many people like to claim ignorance to make a level playing field to cause mass confusion and team gang the person that comes by having already experienced what they have yet to understand. Its like a game… once the truth is exposed people see all the lies. And that is painful for all the egotists.
People dont like me because I will not confine my explanations to ignorance.
Question all things. This is written in the Bible. I have no problem with questioning. But instead of people asking how I might know these things they instead say I am a load of BS! Catch some hypocrisy there? I am not the one claiming ignorance like they are! How can someone claim ignorance and then say someone is wrong? How can they know in their ignorance? I have yet to get an answer from anyone on that question. avoidance like the plague---- thats what I get.
Jesus said that broad is the path that leads down to the gates of destruction and many there be that go by it. And right after He said that narrow be the path that leads to salvation and few there be that find it.
In so many ways truth is just like finding the path to salvation. Truth is not a popular thing. Just read history and you will find there are so many lies and folklore is an absolute tradgedy we are forced to learn it. What good does learning a lie get you? I like the columbus “Discovered” america when the Natives had been here for quite some time. Columus discovered nothing! Now you can see that many things are up for intepretation not the least of which is reality.
Reality is easy to prove. But people still have the choice to ignore the proof or not.
“truth” is utterly subjective to the holder. “truth” does not exist, and can’t even be related to another, so accepting your subjective view, would be ignorant to no end.
Your assumptions of Y’Shua, are as subjective as your “truth”, most did not “hate” him, most never understood him, or his perspective “Truth”, that every subjective cretin since, has twisted to suit their own convoluted, distorted, obfuscated, myopically egocentric certainty of perspective “reality”.
LOL. On your way then, your knowledge is complete. LOL
