Dear Reader
Do you find these two quotations contradictory? They appear to be so.
Entirely contradictory. Becareful making intelligent remarks in this forum. There are many people that will tell you that is simply your perception and that you are dead wrong for it. They might even ask how you can audaciously make such a statement as well.
I would say the conquering of fear is the beginning of bravery but hey… I could be wrong.
There’s probably a one-liner for every possible opinion.
My opinion is that fears are worth keeping if they reflect genuine danger. Otherwise, conquer 'em.
Astral, I really think that Chimney Sweep understood more here.
Suppose a person is completely caught up in fear. Their lives are governed by fear. Decisions are made from fear. Is there any possibility of wisdom which requires a certain objectivity? No, because meaningless habitual fear has replaced the presence needed for any objectivity and distorts reality by definition.
Now suppose that things became so bad in this fearful person’s life that they had to “sink or swim.” Conquering some fears became a life or death situation. They are successful and begin to see how foolish they were for being controlled by all this imaginary fear and that real life existed in a way that was beyond our normal conditioned fearful life. He has conquered fear and became more wise. Now he begins to experience the inner direction towards God where just such freedom of objective existence is possible.
Now the fear is for the absence of God. We know how easily we can fall back into the muck and mire that was before and are dependent on this help from above for this greater perspective because of our inner chaos.
“What is knowledge of the holy” other than this experience of wholeness or being “found” that comes initially as a gift and is easily lost which we strive to recover. This fear of God’s absence or the loss of help from above is the recognition of wisdom and understanding. The realization of our slavery to meaningless fears sustained through inner psychological conflicts of “parts” is also the beginning of wisdom through psychological freedom.
I don’t believe they are contradictory but instead complimentary if you consider spiritual life as a learning experience.
Here is the beautiful “Amazing Grace” that really says it well. “I once was lost and now I’m found. Was blind but now I see.” It is something we need to psychologically protect in ourselves once experienced
man I swear what is it about you people and reading (un)comprehension?
Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Did you people just MISS/IGNORE the word beginning.
Its ONLY a START, not the COMPLETE FREAKING THING! Its not even ALL of it… just a freaking start!
Can you do nothing more than twist and take things out of context?
Reading comprehension is a prime skill… of course that is if you expect to understand jack crap!
Come back after you understand the sentence!
I suppost the first gallon of gas you put into your car will now get you 100 gallons worth of travel! I swear I am getting brain damage here!
July 15, 2006
Hi Nick,
The 2 quotes reflect the same truth. To fear God doesn’t make sense – literally interpreted it means “fear yourself”, because we are God. The correct interpretation is “respect God”, elaborated as the only truly fearful thing is the awful consequences of not respecting God or respecting our True Self. My saying “God is not for the fearful” may…
Aspiring to be a pure troublemaker, I’m inserting the following transcript of my first talk. I am not editing it to reflect slight changes in viewpoint, so one should not think it reflects my thoughts exactly.
Glory be to me! (Abu Yazid al-Bistam, d. 874)
I am the Truth! [Anah al-Haq!] (Mansur al-Hallaj, executed for “blasphemy” in 922)
fear, the destroyer of all things
by luxin
luxin729y@yahoo.ca
dear God (namely God in all my precious fellow beings),
fear is most commonly a response to the thought of losing someone or something, but there is also the fear of someone or something coming into our lives that we don’t feel ready for ~ our fears are basically apprehension regarding specific kinds of change that we don’t feel we are ready to handle ~ there’s the saying, “God doesn’t give us anything we’re not able to handle.” ~ one thing that can help us to rise above our fears and handle all situations in life – or do things we only dreamed we might do but never thought we would – is knowing that God is in all of us, that we in our essence are God the Father, or what i call The Spirit of The One ~ “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21) ~ but just knowing that we are God in our essence is not enough ~ many people feel the truth of our essentially Divine nature but cannot explain it, or why they and everyone they know, even the so-called “bad” people, have many differing admirable good or godly qualities which when combined are like a rainbow of colours or qualities of good or God.
many of us have experienced how when we are inspired, or moved by the spirit at times in our lives, we move beyond common states of fear and accomplish things others view as superhuman ~ small women, disregarding the common fear-creating notion that our bodies are quite fragile, have lifted 2-ton cars to free their family members trapped beneath ~ in times of serious illness and death in the family, some people can draw upon the Spirit of God within which allows them to adjust to and move through the tragedy very well ~ such experiences prove that the Spirit of God is within us, and that that Spirit knows NOTHING of fear ~ “with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26) ~ God (Spiritual Law or “Father Nature”) is detached from and unaffected by our fears ~ that’s why i say that God cannot know the fearful, and that the fearful cannot know God.
the reality is that most of us are constrained by fear for most of our lives, often petrified at the thought of leaving a bad marriage or soul-destroying job ~ why is this so? ~ our inner nature or Spiritual Consciousness is essentially Divine, but that Divinity has our outer nature – the negative channel of mind and body – as its only means of expression ~ our restrictions or inhibitions are all of our own creation, inherent in the power of negative thoughts, particularly the self-centred and fearful kind ~ the qualities of our thoughts and personality are created by the names we are given at birth ~ an individual’s complete life, including personality traits, destiny, and health can be read in an analysis of the numbers derived from their names and birthdate ~ there are 9 discernable basic qualities of divine or human intelligence, and it is these qualities, particularly when combined in an unbalanced state like a discordant chord on a piano, that determine all our fears, inhibitions and any other mental or physical weaknesses.
to know God, and live a natural, happy life as per the Divine Plan – one must realize “There’s nothing to fear but fear itself” ~ there’s a saying, “If you would be strong, know your weakness” ~ realizing and accepting one’s weaknesses, one comes to know the great strengths that always correspond to them ~ there is no shame in fear, because the presence of fear proves that we love or are very attached to something or someone ~ however, our attachment, usually being more emotional than spiritual, intensifies our suffering, as Buddha observed ~ we are not meant to become too attached and dependent, including to or upon our loved ones, because the dispassionate spirit of God, aka Self or the higher nature or pure Reason, is within us; this Reason of Being cannot be ignored, and is symbolized by the “jealous God” of the Bible ~ every experience in life points to and glorifies God or Self in us, and the fact that we lose all the people and things we become attached to – at least at the point of death if not long before – indicates that Father Nature or God requires dispassionate detachment from all things in order to appreciate all things and find peace of mind, or “the peace of God, which passeth all understanding” (Philippians 4:7) ~ this doesn’t mean we should all become “cold fish” or become ascetics; if balanced, sexual and other passions are a wonderful part of life, but we are not meant to be ruled by our passions all the time.
the nine kinds of fear
based on the 9 qualities of conscious intelligence, here is a list of some abstract things that we fear losing:
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the loss of individuality, independence, and physical freedom (fear of dependence or subservience).
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the loss of company or association (fear of aloneness); loss of support and guidance from others (fear of making decisions and facing issues on one’s own); the loss of a pleasant, accumulative life (fear of poverty).
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the loss of love and affection, which manifests as jealousy; loss of fun and happiness (manifests as intolerance and fear of boring routine or humorless people).
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the loss of system and order, routine, and organization, which manifests as fussiness.
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the loss of freedom to act and accomplish, which manifests as impatience; loss of truth-seeking or new activity opportunities, resulting in depression; loss of respect and self-esteem (fear of being misjudged, underestimated or persecuted).
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the loss of responsibility and family; loss of control over one’s financial affairs; loss of respect of others; losing one’s mind (i.e. worry). 7. the loss of a refined, peaceful environment; refined pursuits; independence; love and affection from others (shows as jealousy); fear of the “cruder” aspects of life, including sex.
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the loss of direction and control in business, personal and financial affairs (manifests as mercilessness, materialism, being demanding); loss of money (manifests as miserliness).
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the loss of love and affection (manifests as jealousy); loss of the one’s life or the lives of loved ones (manifests in intense fears that often virtually create such a loss); loss of opportunities to give of oneself, inspire others and be inspired (fear of tedium and drudgery).
Fearlessness and true Love are conjoined
the reason we should regard fear carefully is because we always get what we fear; this rule follows the law of cause and effect in relation to one’s thoughts ~ “Mind is the greatest power in the universe” (Alfred J. Parker) ~ the person who desperately wants to be loved is unbalanced and desperately afraid they won’t be loved, and their fear ensures that they remain loveless ~ Lao Tzu wrote “There is no greater curse than wanting something for oneself.” ~ the “great lover”, or the romantic obsessed with their own feelings of love for their beloved, often searches for love their entire life without finding it ~ the personal lover thinks they can be loved without first “loving all”, or seeing good and God in everyone ~ once one lives to love, unbothered by the fear of not being loved, and secure in knowing that the Love of God is within, then one is inevitably loved personally ~ personal love comes after one is ready to cast one’s fear of not being loved to the wind ~ the biblical precept “seek, and ye shall find” does not apply to personal love, because the latter is something one must deserve, paradoxically by being unconcerned with having it ~ it is when we realize that there is a universal principle governing all things and seek that principle with all that is in us that we are rewarded with true success and happiness in life, which is not a measure of material accomplishment ~ “Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven, and all things will be added unto you.” (Matthew 6:33)
often those of us who are here to express the highest, most inspiring love – i.e. loving and wanting the good of all – find their love limited to, and bound up with the fear of losing, their closest loved ones and friends ~ this love of only those closest to us is a dangerous thing: it is possessive and fearful, and not true love at all ~ our love is not meant to be restricted to a few, but fear and the unawareness of the universal quality of true love keeps our love suppressed and tied down within the family alone ~ the potential inspiration and wisdom within us should be brought out and shared with all, and when that is not done, Nature removes the people and things we love the most from our lives ~ many responsible and loving parents and others characterized by what is called “the 6 quality” are afraid to just let their loved ones be and live their own lives the way they will, and try to dominate and control them, thus alienating them and losing their love, the very thing they fear losing the most.
those who do not realize that love should be universal, and who live for self alone suffer great loss; this is the message of Matthew 25:29: “For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath” ~ the fearful servant who hid his one talent in the earth had it taken away by the Laws
of Nature ~ the same principle is echoed in “Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” (Matthew 21:43) ~ what is within us belongs to all, and if we do not bring it out and share it there is a price to pay ~ The Gnostic Gospel of Thomas states “If you bring forth that which is within you, then that which is within you will give you life. If you do not bring forth that which is within you, then that which you do not bring forth will destroy you”.
our greater security, beyond the fear of personal loss, is in loving all, which means loving God or the Spirit of The One, which is in every one of us, for we are God in His essence ~ to love all on a spiritual level is to experience the beauty of oneness which is not evident when we view each other on the level of mere personality ~ but it is the beauty of personality, no matter how slight it may seem, that points to at least the potential for the beauty of God, the spirit of God within all men and women ~ it is seeing good and God that keeps us safe, and fearless ~ “Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou are with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.” (Psalm 23:4) ~ fearlessness is part of The Way of Life taught by Moses; The Way of Death is the way of fear.
to love personal freedom too much is to lose it
the unbalanced fiveish person, the kind who values freedom of speech and action, often loses the freedom they love so much because they are afraid of losing it, this fear manifesting in the self-destructive tendency to confront “evil” in authority directly through verbal and sometimes violent protest against injustice, which is the inevitable result of authoritative power anyway ~ they are often imprisoned because they draw attention to themselves in their “fight for freedom”, and history is full of fiveish martyrs ~ once a fiveish person knows their Self, their indignation diminishes and they realize they can accomplish more and avoid persecution following the precept of Jesus which is regarded as rubbish by many: “…resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.” (Matthew 5:39) ~ however, as long as we are compelled by self to see and react to evil, the unbalanced fiveish will continue to sacrifice themselves for illusions of justice ~ true justice will only come with Universal Love; until then, there is no point in dying in the futile attempt to try and stop or “clean up” injustice, which is merely an effect which i call “the scum on the stagnant pond of our unawareness”. ~ peacemakers understand the Irish proverb, “Trampling on dung only spreads it more.”
fear and paranoia can destroy all things except Love and Truth
as an aside, it’s interesting that the names United States (584), USA (415) and America (775), being fiveish, seem to be behind the US’s national delusion that it is fighting for freedom and the underdog ~ a greater power should forgive and forget, but forgiveness is next to impossible with too much 5 ~ as a nation the US is afraid of losing its respect and freedom, and is ensuring further persecution by overreacting like a mad elephant stomping on little mice around it and telling the lions and tigers, “See? I’m – STOMP – making the forest a safer – STOMP – place!!” ~ the biblical paraphrase “Judge not lest ye be judged” is being realized, and the US is on the path of self-destruction ~ according to the law of cycles, the current US world empire has almost 700 years to go ~ Lao Tzu stated, “The hard and strong will fall. The soft and weak will overcome.”; this admonition, echoed in many fairy tales and the Bible’s “the first shall be last and the last shall be first” cannot be understood by those who believe that their security lies in fear and aggression ~ the only true security we will ever know is when we understand and love each other so much that we would simply laugh when recalling our petty but disastrous squabbling over territory and material things ~ i won’t hold my breath for that day though.
Reinhold Niebuhr, in Beyond Tragedy, wrote “The most basic need of the human spirit is the need for security and the most fundamental problem of religion is the problem of meeting this need.” and “The sin of man arises from his effort to establish his own security…” ~ in Matthew 6:25 Jesus advises: “Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? … your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.” ~ our true security lies in the abstract, and Truth that never dies, but the illusion of our security being in emotional and material things thrives, and we are manipulated and used by politicians, warmongers and false prophets who use patriotism and religion to create fear and paranoia, make false promises of “security”, and deny and attempt to destroy the unity of all men ~ we have oxymoronic Islamic “holy wars”; an American president presuming God or The Spirit of Goodness is on the side of unholy war; and recently the so-called “Christian” leader of the Christian Coalition in the US advocating on national television the assassination of a South American president just to avoid the trouble of going to war ~ the great and Eternal Law of Love and Forgiveness taught by Christ is only for those who love, and refuse to believe the rubbish that fearmongers spout as their bank accounts swell up from the profitable business of war ~ here is the Law of Love: ‘And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.’ (Mark 12:30) ~ a facet of God, or what the Gnostics called “The Good”, and Hindus call “The True Self”, is the sacred essence within every one of us, and it is the source of Love ~ “Teach only Love for that is what you are.” (Gerald Jampolsky) ~ “Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive.” (Dalai Lama) ~ “If only you could love enough you would be the happiest and most powerful being in the world.” (Emmet Fox) ~ “When the power of love replaces the love of power, man will have a new name: God.” (Chinmoy)
fear is truly the destroyer of all things beautiful ~ only through godly fearlessness can we enjoy and not lose our birthright ~ bold fearlessness for the sake of our higher nature is possible should we truly understand ourselves and others; a truly amazing level of understanding is possible with a loving nature plus the knowledge of the principle of number with respect to human conscious intelligence ~ St. Augustine wrote: “… numbers are the thoughts of God … The Divine Wisdom is reflected in the numbers impressed on all things … the construction of the physical and moral world alike is based on eternal numbers.”
our clinging to life equates with our fear of death – and this clinging and fear is natural to all, “good” and “bad” alike ~ Buddha calls it Tanha, the thirst for life, and Christ refers to it in the saying “He who loves his life shall lose it” ~ to truly live life to the full, then, we are required to rise above our fears and become unconcerned with the changing circumstances of our lives ~ one cannot attain to spirituality by trying to disregard the desires of the body as the ascetics do, but accepting the physical and sexual aspects of life as a God-given foundation of our existence upon which we may build a spiritual concept that knows nothing of fear ~ accepting all things on the middle path of moderation is the path to a fearless, complete and happy life ~ life, love and happiness begin where fear ends.
Our only responsibility is happiness. (Clayne Conings)
To believe with certainty, we must begin by doubting. (Polish)
you can’t count on me; you can’t count on anyone: false prophets abound; you can only count on your Self, the Kingdom of Heaven within you. (luxin)
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you: for so did their fathers to the false prophets. (Luke 6:26)
Let life ripen and then fall, will is not the way at all. (Lao Tzu)
All of us will always have something of the false prophet in us, wherefore we ought to speak humbly. We will mistake our own dreams for the word of God. (Reinhold Niebuhr, Beyond Tragedy)
Astral
If you are referring to me, you’ve lost me. I didn’t define wisdom but just suggested that from the Bertrand Russell perspective wisdom is subjective and on our level and can only BEGIN when we are not dominated by fear.
From the religious perspective wisdom is above us or something we seek
Psychologically growing towards wisdom requires the acceptance that we need help from above and if so, it is natural to fear its loss. This acceptance is also the BEGINNING of wisdom.
I didn’t mention what wisdom actually is but only that we can progress towards it from a beginning that can be seen through different perspectives
What is there to be angry about?
Hi Luxin
What gave you the idea that we are God?
I’ve posted this before and probably will again since it is so useful to express this point. You like these old stories. It tells of the danger of sleep manifesting as egotism.
This is why the ancient traditions speak of man’s nothingness. I believe that experiencing this is on the path to wisdom.
Well after reading some post its plain that you guys really could careless. I mean since everything is “subjective” and all there is no real point to discussing it. Other than to give someone your opinion so they can trash it of course.
Untill you guys get around this subjectivism bull then you will never allow yourself to see truth.
Truth has been and will always be an absolute. If someone honestly thinks a lie is the truth then it is still a lie no relative truth or subjective truth.
Something can be many things, but it either is or is not, all the same. There is no room in reality for the twisting of wisdom I just saw you guys put it through!
You make a good point Astral, when you point to the word “beginning.â€
I’d just like to comment on the concept of what is meant by, “the fear of the lord.” Fear as in phobia? No. A traditional understanding of this word is “reverential awe.†As Chuck Smith, a pastor, notes, “This means giving God proper place in my life.†He went on to say: It is about “Yielding my will to His. Living to please Him rather than myself, seeking to love the things God loves and hating the things God hates.â€
“To fear the Lord is to hate evil.”
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We have developed a high tolerance for evil, we have been glutted with evil, a survey indicates that by the time your child graduates from High School, they have watched 16,000 murders, evil no longer shocks, no longer a strong revulsion, we’ve been too satiated with it.
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“The fear of the Lord is to hate evil.” (8:13) Pride, the feeling of superiority over others, is one of the dumbest things I can possess, arrogance, another foolish trait.
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How can I receive the fear of the Lord?
a. It is a matter of choice (1:29).
b. By seeking to know God. (2:3-5). -
You cannot know Him and not stand in awe of Him.
So if we take this verse to be more about “The respect for His (God’s) greatness, His authority and power†does this still look like a contradiction?
Connect
Mostly simulated on violent PC games and in movies, right?
I’ve seen pleanty of the real sort, as I’ve been watching videos about the reality of modern war-scams, etc. Most people don’t see the real kind of murders often, though.
Just thought I’d clear up on that one.
Hey Dan,
Thanks. Sorry, my quote didn’t cover the whole note by Smith. I merely put it in because that is how he was defining “the fear of the Lord” factors.
Connections
One of the bests posts in this thread. You apparently understand more than the rest.
It is important to understand the context in which the Bible speaks. If you look at and read the bible in todays messed up engrish language then you have no chance of understanding it.
A prime example is of the many different denominations of Churches. Most of them use the religion to advance themselves like superior people when they really value the philosphy of mankind even before the Wisdom of God.
This really is no contest. Its been completely misunderstood for the most part, hands down.
God said my people perish for lack of knowledge. And in this super information age, we are surprisingly lacking a WHOLE LOT of knowledge. Its absolutely sad really.
July 29, 2006
Hi Nick,
If we aren’t God, then what could He be? Your sheep allegory suggests that the sheep (i.e., most of us) do not have the substance to see the lies we are being fed, and relates the fact that there are “evil” people who can lead we sheep astray. When we God-sheep realize we are not just sheep (usually after we have been led astray, but usually more by our own weakness than any “magician”) the time of our cringing obedience to false authority can be over.
To realize one is part of God carries more responsibility than the average person is ready to take on. Not believing in one’s universal essence only furthers the self-deceit you speak of. It is a fearful thing for most to contemplate being part of God; it suggests more change and growth than most want to face. Most God-sheep want to cling to the fallacy that they are just “sheep”. The price for this we all pay…
The real danger in the allegory is not the magician, but the pathetic state of the sheep. For every victim there is a victimizer. But I haven’t the slightest concern for victims – this is the work of community organizations.
Yours,
Luxin
luxin729y@yahoo.ca
@ luxin
I am a human.
I am not a god.
I am not part of a god.
These truths are evident.
Humans are not gods. Humans are Creation.
Equating God and Man is a drastic misinterpretation of the Bible. English has at least preserved enough of the original meaning of the source Biblical texts to make this obvious. My uncle has a doctorate in theology and he disagrees with the notion of self being a God. By no means can the text in its original form be interpreted to say such a thing. The proclamation of self is an idea that is entirely fabricated and has no Biblical basis.
Luxin, perhaps Christianity is not the best religion for you. If you want to make your own “truths” then you should find a religion that encourages you to do so. The Bible is very clear in respect to this issue. Christians dont make the truths, they discover them.
love this thread idea.
Bertrand Russell was a math dude and philosopher. He was also a socialist and a anti-war activist. It is funny that his idea is reverse of the proverbs idea.
I think soloman and some common wise men wrote the proverbs. Am I right here bible buffs? Soloman was a ruler of an empire.
So a philosopher, says: get rid of fear and start to get wisdom
And a empire ruler says: get fear (of the lord) and start to get wisdom.
I think empire rulers usually do use fear to keep them in power. And philosophers pick apart fear, but are also unpredictable.
I’m curious to get an idea of these two different authors backgrounds to speculate why they wrote the reverse of each other.
to be continued . . .
I found another translation of the proverb and find that may show that it is not talking about fear or the conquering of it, but how wisdom or understanding begin. It is a transliteration, since otherwise the repeating of the same content for memory’s sake get’s lost.
“Apprehension of the eternal One opens wisdom,
knowing the sacred opens understandingâ€
Shalom
you found another translation, but did not site the sources. What translation is this?
yeah they are, one is religious the other philosophy.
religeon tells you what and how to think but philosophers think to find how to think and what to think if you know wat i mean. Bertrand Russell is not bound by the religeon and so does not need to agree with it…
(i dont know if Bertrand Russel follows that religeon, if so shame on him 
)
but that means one is most probbably going to be wrong if not both…
hmm brain wonders and thinks is there a way both quotes could be right? mental test time… thinks hard … 
… … … 
the subject of the quote above may be how to understand god… and their for it doesnt matter that it is contradictory to the other qoute, since the quote above is in terms of understanding god and the other is about the begining of wisdom period. different subjects… if the quotes are meant in different context… they aernt really contradicting if thats the case. i dont know where the religeous quote come from so i dont know if this is actually the case… if they were both philosophical quotes then one woul dprobbably have to be wrong, nice little mental work out i gave myself
