Is proselytization un-American?

Should Congress ban proselytization?

07.19.06.1382

I had a recent run-in with one of those kinds of Christians that go up to people handing out those “have you been saved” pamphlets. The man said he had something for me and gave me one of these things and when I saw what it was I tried to be nice about it and handed it back saying “please take this.” Instead of taking it, he kept going saying the usual stuff like “have you met Jesus Christ” and “I’m trying to save your soul…” Really, he was being a real asshole about it too.

Here I was, minding my own business, and someone comes up and invades my personal privacy; objecting to my constitutional freedom and right of belief. I really didn’t want to turn this situation into a scene, because despite what this man had done, I was still trying to be nice by respecting his freedom of belief. Before I had the opportunity to say such things regarding the Constitution, my girlfriend took the pamphlet and threw it to the ground and we left thereafter. Her being a Wiccan felt much more inclined to cast a stone at he who threw one.

So… I started to wonder about the freedom of religion and the freedom of speech. One may say what they wish in this country, although some things you may be punished for saying. What I am curious about though is, why is there no law designed to outlaw proselytization in America? The “duty” of every Christian would be nullified, and America would truly take a real step towards separation of church and state.

Muslim countries outlaw proselytization… Wiccans have a law not to practice it… yet America seemed to have let it slipped by. Honestly, who really enjoys Mormons going door-to-door? Banning proselytization in America would even do good for Christians of other denominations as well… for example (another bashing on Mormonism): what descent Christian of an average denomination would welcome the arrival of Mormons at their door?? Any takers??

I’m all for freedom of speech, but when it crosses the line to break the freedom of religion, America takes a stab in the back.

How would banning evangelizing (don’t feel like trying to spell the other word right now,) work to seperate church and state? I mean, it’s annoying, but just because we’re annoyed doesn’t mean we can infringe on their rights.

What if a central part of that religion is proselytization? Then you’re violating members of that group’s right to freedom of religion AND their right to free speech. Double Whammy!

Americans have a right to free speech, and that right entails their ability to express their beliefs in any way they want, including handing you pamphlets.

Also, I don’t see how this little episode demonstrates some major violation of your constitutional rights. If it was the government or military handing out “Join Jesus or we’ll arrest you” pamphlets, then I’d understand, but in this case it was just a guy with an opinion trying to express it; this guy was taking advantage of his civil rights.

The guy was a jerk. There are a lot of jerks. The government doesn’t exist to eliminate jerks from the nation. If it did, then pretty much 95% of politicians – Republican or Democrat-- would be under military lockdown right now. America gives people the right to have opinions and express them freely, without fear of being governmentally persecuted for stating them. There are a lot of annoying opinions out there, not just evangelical ones. But they have to be expressed, otherwise if your opinion happens to annoy the wrong officials, you’ll be imprisoned or worse. Now THAT’S un-American.

He wants to help you gain eternal happiness in heaven, what an ass-hole.

Or are one of the two in any disagreement – misguided?
A bad means to a good end?

Shit, really???
How advanced of a Wiccan is she? Does she practice her craft daily?

Advertising is allowed within this constitution, whether it be good or bad…

You’d need public concent for that sort of law.

Did push come to shove yet?

07.20.06.1383

I don’t presume to infringe on the rights of Christians. As I stated before, I did nothing more than ask the man to take the pamphlet back. At usual other times when someone is on the street holding out these pamphelts and not saying anything and they look to me and hold one out in the air saying something to draw me in like: “hi, how are you doing” or “good morning” (of that sort), I usually return the kindness or say no thank you and be on my way.

Having said that, I’ll move on to the next point. Evangelizing and proselytization are useless tools of Christianity. The world has over 2 billion adherents. Seriously, if I or anyone wanted to become involved in Christianity, we need not to be dogged into it; it’s there, it’s big, it needs no introduction.

Now, if proselytization were banned in America, the secular inner-workings of society would run more smoothly. Don’t take this the wrong way… if you have ever been stopped by one of these people, can you honestly say that they did not disrupt your daily schedual in some way? Could you have been having a good time and now they stepped on it? The same for government. Why bother dealing with religious matters when so much secular work needs sorting out? Let’s face it… what is useless impeeds one’s ability to be useful. I hope that answers your question… Question.

Some of my comments also answer to froberg’s reply. Oh, and yes, this may lead to a change in the political arena. (I didn’t need to say that but oh well.)

Since when did people need another’s help to gain any level of happiness? Are humans supposed to be inherently weak and incapable of fulfilling themselves? It would be clear that Christianity teaches this fundamental lesson.

Well, I don’t make it my business to inquire upon that; but I wouldn’t be suprised. I find it funny though how Wiccan fundamentals are more like true Christianity than what it is today. Of course, the only time she lashes out at someone, like the act of throwing the pamphlet down, is when she feels her faith as been insulted and disrespected. I don’t think I could agree with her more.

There is a fine line between advertisement and harassment. For example, I’m not going to blow steam over people who put banners or postings all over a city that say stuff like “Jesus Saves” and what-not. That is a perfectly acceptable means of advertisement. Only when that message is brought within my personal boundry does it become otherwise.

Oh America,
down upon its knees;
stained in agony,
by the blood of reason;
which pours slowly,
from the wounds of deception;
this from a knife,
in the hand of an assailant;
an intolerant Christian.

These missionaries are annoying, sure, but I really fail to see how someone annoying me infringes on my freedom of religion.

These people aren’t having an inquisition where they break into your house and force conversion at the point of a red-hot iron poker . . . they are just asking me if I wanna get down with Jesus. I don’t, thanks for asking. Sometimes they can be a little belligerent, so what?

I can still practice whichever religion I choose, they have no power over me, which means that my freedom of religion is still intact.

There are many groups that I find annoying and several groups that I find out-and-out offensive, and even a few that I think are just plain evil. Still, as long as they aren’t trying to employ some form of violence, they definately have a right to spew their shit.

Limiting the freedom of speech for one is limiting the freedom of speech for all. I am sure that many find my beliefs annoying, some of you probably find them offensive and, I’ll wager there are even one or two out there that consider me evil. Possibly more, given my line of work.

I mean, what if I were passing out pamphlets that were pro-stem cell research? In conservative Indianapolis, I’d wager I’d annoy a lot of people and piss a bunch of people off. Still, I have my right to speak my mind about it. Now, the act of stem cell research could be considered a form of violence (if you believe that human ESCs are human lives), so they do have a right to legally restrict my actions. I hope no such bill passes, but I do not have freedom of action.

Same thing with PETA. I very much dislike their message. However, they have every right to hold their little protests outside of the animal building. ALF, on the other hand, does not have a right to act as they do. That is the difference between being a blowhard and a terrorist. If I restrict the speech of PETA, soon enough my speech will be inhibited. Restricting the ability of ALF to act, on the other hand, is fine.

That is the difference. These people are just shooting their mouths off, who cares?

I found that the easiest way to blunt this sort of thing is to disarm them. I politely tell them that my spiritual needs are already met, but that I admire them for their willingness to act on their convictions and go door to door with their message. They’re expecting resistance so that they can “save” me. Instead I’m handing out compliments. They have no idea what to do with that. I take their little pamphlets, thank them for coming by, and shut the door. The pamphlet goes in the trash, and I go on about my business.

The key is to not resist their game but derail it.

Had I been confronted on the street, I would have taken the pamphlet and told them I would give it all the consideration it deserves and please excuse me, but I’m late… You leave them nothing to fight with or about and the interruption is over as fast as it started.

LOL, Tent is more polite then I. Since they are annoying me, I have fun with them. I start recruiting for Satan, that generally shuts the meeker ones up, the stronger ones continue for a bit get more pushy and I get more pushy , they back down. I only had one lady that ever stayed with me and by the end we were both laughing. She and I parted ways with good spririts. It was fun.

P.S. She was pushing for Christian Scientists. first one I ever met with a wierd sense of humor. Most seem to have little or none, some truly enjoy humor but, it is usually squeaky clean. She was not so reverent.

Next time you are faced with a religious person in your face start preaching right back at them. LOL it helps turn a bad situation into a good one for you.Not for them but, for you at least.

I would never take away their right to be pushy and preach, we have too many laws as it is and too many people wanting to control others. I push for just the opposite for the sake of balance. Anarchy rules!, (except around me thank you)

There is nothing more american than proselytising.

I once ran into a christian proselytiser outside an abortion clinic, where I was dropping off a friend. He was a bit pushy. Someone from the clinic actually seperated us just before I clocked him one upside the head. I don’t remember the last time I actually hit someone, but I was gonna hit that guy.

So here was a guy who worked in the clinic that the christian guy was protesting, saving the christian guy from a mild beating.

Strife, argument, violence.

Nothing more american that that.

LOL. they block Planned Parenthood clinics too, that is where I went to get my pregnancy test. abunch of them started calling me horrible names. A guy got into my face and started calling me a slut, whore and a murderer screaming it at me, My husband would have clocked him if I had not stopped him, he was not worth going to jail for. Which is why they do that at these clinics they want you to attack them and give them an excuse to to do harm. remember that Faust, they are pushing your buttons don’t let them do it, you are better then that and worth a hell of a lot more then them.

By banning this you are infringing on the religious freedom’s of Christians who choose to do this. They’re just offering you another path. Liberals are always preaching tolerance and acceptance, I guess they don’t have the honor to extend that right to Christians.

DH,

There is a decided difference between offering and pushing. Even though the thread has been aimed at religious proselytizing, the principle is the same whether you’re selling Christianity or toaster ovens. You may invite, but do not attempt to coerce, or you might walk away with a few bruises. When you’ve been asked politely to leave off, leave off. That you’re convinced that you’re “saving” me is admirable, but it in no way obligates me to respond positvely or to respond at all. It is unfortunate that too many people, full of zeal, fail to appreciate that. I have little or no patience with those toaster oven people…

Kris - I was not thinking about the legal ramifications at the time, if I can remember correctly. I was just pissed. He scared my friend right back into the car. I was probably looking at probation, though. I’ve been on probation before, and it isn’t so bad. Probably well worth it.

Do Americans have the right to affect the beliefs of other Americans? Hellz yeah! But should they have the right to do it against the other American’s will? Unsolicited affection sure, but what about unwanted? I dunno. Should we be able to change people’s beliefs for their own good?

I know you were not niether, was my husband and he thought it would be well worth it too, perhaps it is, god knows the thought crosses my mind too but, I did mean for future reference, when aproached by these selfserving hypocrites.

It sucks they made your friend frightened, but, Faust, if you had gone to jail she would have been left alone there with out your comfort and protection. Would that not have frightened her more, being left with them? Hey, if you were by yourself I would say crack em one for me. but, if you are not then it might not be worth it.

Momma’s lecture over, I hope it didn’t hurt too much. I will have Bessy kiss the hurt away, if it does hurt, she is gentler then I am.

zeus - I do not think that rights properly apply to beliefs. We coerce each other’s actions. We are, however, constantly trying to influence each other. Sure. It’s what we do here on this site. Not that it ever works.

tz,

Well, it depends on what good means, doesn’t it? It also depends on your method of change. If you decide to change my beliefs for my own good, probably ought to bring a sack lunch and a box of bandaids.

Couldn’t it be called a form of rape if they refuse to quit or battery. I would think it could be. Especially when they refuse to leave your doorstep. Mothers with their kids in tow are the worst about it.

What I meant is, if you consider arguments to be consensual, should you continue to yell in the ear of someone going “lalalala” quite loudly and trying to ignore you?

No matter where you go you will have to listen to someone religion. You will either hear about science, philosphy, religion or something. It never ceases to amaze how one person or group thinks it their right to stop others from pressing their thoughts onto others in a flat out lie about seperation of church and state. Please show me where the church and state are seperated. NO WHERE.

Plus the simple fact that no matter where you come from religion or not, everyone has a right to their opinion and the right to express that opinion. You will find that the left are only for allowing thier opinion to be heard while they trample on the others.

One need look no further than public school to see this.