I’m part of a small Christian community. There is something about community that is both highly rewarding and highly annoying. Over the years I guess I’ve come to believe that elements of theology that do NOT have any outworking in a community are largely irrelevant. There is a “rubber hitting the road” thing that goes on where life is focussed on the truely essential elements of faith. When someone is alone, all sorts of other meaningless crap gets debated and turned over and can seem like it’s very important when it is actually quite trivial.
I’m interested in knowing if others have experienced this effect too. It makes me wonder how any spiritual progress can be made by people who choose to separate themselves from others. But my experience of that is somewhat limited. Maybe there are benefits to be had both ways!
Ned,
If I understand what you are saying, I agree. The important aspects of religion are those that transform us, and the way to measure this transformation is with respect to your surroundings (community).
Now, I think that a spiritual community can help speed the progress of self-cultivation up because you are surrounded by a group of like-minded people who can help you work through it. When you are trying to order yourself, it is beneficial to help others and be helped by others because you will all notice different things that either your ego prevents you from seeing, or your perspective hasn't noticed. Thanks for the thread, BTW, I've convinced my g/f to start going to temple again.
But I do feel that self-cultivation is possible in the absence of a spiritual community, because we all share a fundamental co-humanity and from this we can improve ourselves with respect to our interactions with other people. It can be more difficult, but I think that we can fundamentally learn proper behaviour from observing others, the positive aspects we emulate and the negative aspects we seek to root out from our own character.
But for a person who is totally isolated from other humans? Personally, I very highly doubt that they could truly cultivate themselves in a meaningful way. Now, temporary isolate can help focus you, and even a semi-permenant state of isolation can give you time to mediate and otherwise seek to improve yourself. Now, whether these activities are effect means for truly improving one's humanity, I do not know. They always smacked of raw egoism to me. Seperating one's self from society is as extreme as being a brainless follower in society. I think that both these types of people are more fundamentally similar than either would admit. Though, I suppose that if both can be at peace with their flaws, then it is not fatal to one's internal development. If you cannot get along in society, removing one's self from society (while an ego-laden move) is probably a good idea.
The short answer is “do whatever floats your boat”
If you enjoy being in the company of a church or group, do it, and if you enjoy the lone approach, do that instead. For example John the baptist lived like a hippy wild man out in the wilderness, yet Jesus said “John is the greatest man ever to be born”.
Likewise Jesus said its okay to pray (meditate/chill) quietly alone in your room if you like.
At the same time he never pooh-poohed doing it in company.
Personally I do the lone approach thing because it works best for me. I’ve looked at a few local churches but they’re definitely not my style, such as the one just across the bridge, its full of out-of-control tongue babblers and other assorted cultists, so I steer clear…
Until I find a church I’m comfortable with I’m happy to go it alone
At the moment I’m with Christian Waymarkers UK, a loose non-denominational nationwide group of a dozen or so who only meet up occasionally but stay in regular touch by letter, email and phone, some of us go to church, some of us don’t. Some of us street-preach, some of us don’t.
My bag is “scribe”, I write stunning short articles for them which they print out as small leaflets and hand out to bewildered passersby in Brit cities and towns.
Like I said, do whatever floats your boat.
Right Noah?
“Right”…
I hadn’t really thought about the “speed” of progress I was thinking more about progress or not. But you’re probably right. I’m glad you’ve decided to get involved in a community again, I definitely think this is where it’s at!
I agree completely. We’ll have to think of areas where we can have a good old argument cos almost everything you write these days I agree with! Do you like peanut butter? I think it’s evil
I thought you might say that. However, you are wrong in assuming that John tha Baptist was a lone ranger, he clearly had disciples.
Matthew 9
14Then John’s disciples came and asked him, “How is it that we and the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?”
I think you’d be hard pressed to find a NT example of someone who was not in regular community with other believers. In fact we are instructed to meet together whether we like it or not.
Hebrews 10
24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
How do you reconcile this with your “do as you please” stance?
True, but I’m not arguing that we have to be glued to each other 24-7. Just that we have to have some sort of community to make any spiritual progress.
Why is that Mick? Do you think it’s truely a deficiency in the church, a deficiency in you, or a bit of both?
Yet the bible instructs us otherwise and no believer in the bible was ever happy to “go it alone”. So why are you comfortable doing so?
An atheist scientist steeped in Confucian humanism, who (occasionally) works with human embryonic stem cells and a very seriously fundamentalist Christian agreeing on most issues.
Holy crap!
Maybe there is a chance for peace and understanding in this world?
Let’s celebrate the moment. It surely can’t last very long…
By the way I’m also a scientist by profession. Obviously I oppose embryonic stem cell research, which may get me into trouble at my medical school someday. Oh, crap…are we disagreeing now!
Maybe, maybe not. They are a pain to work with. Even though I’m trained in their culture, I try not to use them because shudder they are just so much freakin’ work. Plus with Hwang’s findings nicely discredited, it’ll be a long time before we start using them theraputically. I’ll stick to mice, thank you very much.
Interesting. I’m working on hematopoiesis in a MM&I program what field are you in. I’m curious.
Cheers, to our present understanding and the inevitable philosophical battles that lie on the horizon!
As I’ve said, for years I’ve been looking for a church I feel comfortable with, and until I find one I’m more than happy to go it alone, I’ve no time for bad churches -
“Bad company corrupts good character” (1 Cor 15:33)
“Keep away from profane babblers” (1 Tim 6:20/21)
If Jesus can’t help you mate, stringing with a herd won’t help you either
Pick up a gospel, there’s all the help you need in there -
Jesus said:-“Call nobody teacher except me” (Matt 23:8-10)
There ya go
I think for thousands of years humans have sat around fires or in caves and talked about stories of creation etc.
I think it brings mystery (and wonder) into our lives, and though many of us can do it on our own, I think it can be nurishing for many of us to find a spiritual community. (as long as it nurtures us and doesn’t beat us down with dogma)
I was raised mormon, and loved the spiritual close knit community of it (though I don’t believe the creed).
Being with your friends all night skateboarding through the city or out camping is really my deepest spiritual community.
I’m not sure about whether debating online really constitutes a spiritual community. But really, I’m not sure how I would define a spiritual community. It wouldn’t neccesarily have to meet face to face. I suppose at minimum t would just have to participate in some shared spiritual experience. Do you agree? And if that’s what we’re doing here then I guess I haven’t noticed.
A few of my christian mates bullied me into coming along to a small prayer meeting (I think they’d bet among themselves how long I’d last before walking out).
I walked in before the thing began, but was told off by some woman for accidentally slamming the door “you’ll have it off its hinges” she glowered…
Then I half-sat on the edge of a table and she yelled “Hey don’t do that, we have to put food on there”.
Then I put my small rucksack down. “Not there!” she shouted,“people will trip over it!”
I could see my pals off to one side nearly p*ssing themselves with suppressed laughter, but I decided to stick it out…
Then the meeting began. One guy stood up and said “I counted every verse in the bible page by page, it took me over a week”.
“What a bleddy waste of time I thought”…
Then they started singing a hymn, one chap started waving his arms up to heaven and that was the final straw, “I’m outta here” I thought, and walked…
So, does that get you off the hook? What do you do with the command Hebrews not to give up meeting together? Is it Ok to say that you tried and didn’t have a good experience?
