This is being taught to children throughout the Islam world. In Palestine they give the children comic books that glorify martyrdom.
Is it enough to worship someone for dying for their cause? We do it within our own culture as well… the early christian church is littered with those who died for what they believed and the word “martyr” in fact was made for one of the fellows.
Our media needs to stop searching for reasons why they do these things. It’s not because they are poor, or impoverished. It’s not because of our foriegn policy. (look at India, and Thailand as examples, the US and Israel have nothing to do with these countries.)
It’s because of what they believe! The only way we can “end” the war on terror (which is a misnomer, it’s a war against this type of Islam, and honestly, who knows how much of Islam that is.) is a war against an idealogy.
Is it ideal to replace one idealogy with another? In an “ideal” world, no, but ANY idealogy is better than what these poor children are being brainwashed with now.
I’d argue that it is all about Imperialism. When you are pushed to the edge, you use what is available.
The VietCong used suicide bombers, many of them children. The Japanese were training children near the end of WWII, to prepare for defending the Fatherland.
It is legal to join the military at age 18 in the US, 17 with parental consent. What is the difference between a 15 year old and an 18 year old? Is it significant?
Children participated in the Warsaw uprising. Was that dangerous ideology at work?
Well, you never addressed the issue in the previous thread about how a "dangerous ideology"can be defined on action alone. This thread just seems like more of the same.
To quote myself…“I guess that my point is that if you define an “extremist ideology” as one that leads to violence to impose it’s will, but then choose to combat such an ideology using violence to impose your will, then you have no right to use the labels “extremist” or “moderate”. Both actions are so similar that the labels are arbitrary. If you have some other underlying reason to believe that a certain ideology is “extremist”, then that might work. But to define extremism based on action will either leave you a pacifist or a hypocrite.”
Uh… I didn’t realize the outright abuse of children needed to be supported?
It’s funny, you were one of the prime complainers with Ol-Gobbo about the indoctrination of kids to believe in possession, but indoctrinating kids in the imperialistic machinations of martyrdom is okay?
Bullshit. Islam HAS ALWAYS BEEN LIKE THIS.
#1) you don’t understand imperialism, and are using the marxist definition.
#2) Islam IS Imperialism defined.
#3) you handily ignored my comments about Thailand and India, where they aren’t “pushed to the edge”. And HELL, this is happening in Egypt which gets more foriegn aid dollars from the US, than Israel!
I can find no proof for that, and if they did, it was a mere blip.
Honor suicide is a part of japanese culture that dates back to the samurai… the difference is, it is sucidide and not a homicide bombing.
And here we come to the meat and potatoes… moral relativism. You see no difference between the USA Idealogy, and the Islam Idealogy. To you, a 15 year old being indoctrinated to strap bombs to himself and blow himself up to cause the maximum amount of carnage, is no different than someone volunteering to defend the nation from such people.
How can I debate against that? You believe that there’s nothing wrong with this indoctrination of idealogy, because of the flaws of our own idealogy, and the relativistic view you have of the world.
The fact is, that yes, our idealogy is flawed… but it’s still better than this.
Is there any difference?
#1) The 17/18 year old is STILL volunteering, he’s not being forced into the military.
#2) The 15 year old is indoctrinated from the time of being a young child. You think the first time they are exposed to this kind of hatred is when they are 15? Wake up, we are facing idealogical extinction.
No, that was in defense of a dangerous idealogy.
I guess my point was missed. I stated that you cannot battle an idealogy with merely weapons, you must also use words. But words alone, especially against such a dangerous and deadly idealogy will prove to be suicide.
For example, let’s say you go to Egypt and tell the teacher that he shouldn’t teach such a dangerous idealogy to children. Do you think he’d gladly listen to you? Within hours, you’d be the next nicholas berg…
Some facts:
#1) every time a country gives into terrorism (cartoon wars or otherwise) the act of violence to get what Islam wants, works, and they will do it again.
#2) In spain, they bombed the train, then Spain withdrew troops from Iraq, and didn’t even bother looking for the muslims responsible. They tried the same tactic in the UK. And the UK didn’t back down… so they went to try again, and were shut down. And what happened after that? They issued a threat to change their policy or face more attacks.
I think this is a problem:
People don’t pay attention to the world news, especially sites like memri.
People don’t study history thus it’s doomed to repeat itself, as the next set of hitlers prepare to kill the jews and buddhists.
(The number one selling book in Turkey is Mein Kempf… The number one movie is a lie, about a jewish doctor who steals children away in the night and removes their organs and kills them.
I think you missed my point. Your definition of extremist ideology seems to rest on the fact that people use violence or suicide bombs or whatever. Yet you also seem to agree with using bombs and many soldiers to impose your ideology on others. So, I’m asking what’s the difference? Other than a few technicalities like conscripting 15 year olds rather than 17 year olds I don’t see much difference in your “moderate” ideology versus the “extreme” ideology you dislike so much. If you choose to base your definition of “extremism” on control or force, it seems hair splitting to call one good and one bad when both use violence. Does that make sense?
This is irrelevant, as I could easily find some violent behavior carried out by US forces and hold it up as an example of how evil they are. This line of argument is what inflames these conflicts in the first place. He did this and she did that, so now it’s fair of me to do this etc… I’m asking you adeeper question about your basis for calling what they believe “extremist” and what you believe “moderate”. If your only answer involves something about control or using force then I think you’re argument is completely illogical.
So when the 17 year old is indoctrinated to believe in American patriotism and signs up for the military that is volunteering
But when a 15 year old is indoctrinated to believe in martyrdom and joins a radical Imam he has been brainwashed?
Yes, I was using Imperialism in the Marxist sense. Is that a problem?
Imperialism isn’t the sole property of the US. Much of the world bears the wounds of Europe’s Imperialism over the past few centuries. Some of those wounds have hardened to scars of hatred, others are still open, sapping resources to this day.
While I deplore the actions of these terrorist individuals, you are not making the situation any better. One of the major reasons for rise of terrorist Islam is because Western society is simply not viewed as modern in those countries. Why? Well, Western society supported much of the entrenched aristocracy as well as several brutal dictators during the cold war. Even to this day, as long as the oil flows, the West doesn’t particularly care who is mining it. So, they see the West as supporting regressive regimes. Who opposes these regimes and how best to fight them? Well, the Imams pave the way. See: Iran.
The problem with your way of thinking is that it provides no better alternatives. You say your way is better, so you intend to bring it to them by force. Possibly through a regressive dictator who will enforce your will. So, where does that leave us? Then you get more ‘freedom fighters’ who also happen to be religious fanatics.
Your anti-ideology is a far more restrictive ideology than any others you have put forward. Why should anyone embrace it?
On that topic.
You speak out against ideologies, yet you also speak out against moral relativism. So, if you are opposed to ideology, where do you get your measuring stick for morality?
Mine says children shouldn’t fight in wars. Does yours?
No, in defense, of other idealogies. If we didn’t use soldiers or bombs, we’d all be nazi’s today. What is so hard to understand about that?
As horrible as violence is, sometimes you have to respond with violence to defeat evil idealogies. The ghandi philosophy will not work against muslims or against nazis.
If you cant’ tell the difference between our idealogy and there’s, then there is honestly nothing I can do for you.
And this is exactly my point…
Xunzian.
It’s about knowing what’s right and wrong. Muslim idealogy is wrong, and ours is less wrong. Both idealogies (like any idealogy) is bathed in lies, the lies in Islam idealogy are more dangerous and evil.
It’s not about “training fifteen year olds”, or merely brainwashing fifteen year olds. These poor children are exposed to extremist vile idealogy from birth. Look at the news! The mother who was using her babies bottle as a catalyst for an explosive.
If you can’t see evil, I can’t help you see evil.
Yes, because marx was an idiot. (I’m not going to elaborate on why here, this is not about the problems with socialism or communist idealogies. Needless to say, if one looks around the world, where governments have been “imperialized” by communism and capitalism, the capitalist countries ALWAYS have better human rights, and fewer starving people.)
Uhm, okay. The UK receeded it’s last territory (Hong Kong) back to china in 1999. And what happened? A sudden influx of capitalism into Communist China, that caused conditions for the poor and human rights conditions to get better. It still has a long ways to go, and until they drop communism completely, they’ll have to deal with that.
The fact is:
Capitalist imperialism (for lack of a better term) HELPS countries.
Communist imperialism (or take overs from within) HARMS countries.
So does Fascism. Islam is a form of fascism, and that is why the Mufti of Egypt got along so brilliantly with Hitler. (link in my post above.)
the fact is these “individuals” are not “perverting” islam, they are carrying out the goals of fascist Islam, which is what mohammed had in mind.
We could help remove these dictators, but look at the mess that caused in iraq. Do you think it’d be much better off with the same leadership trying to remove other dictatorships? I agree we need to take out the leaders. BUT, we also need to implant alternate idealogies, even if it’s a different look at their own religion.
My personal views are far more restrictive than what I propose. I think all idealogies are dangerous, even the ones I propose replacing the evil idealogy of islamofascism with.
How do you know the truth, when all idealogies are evil? SIMPLE. When you believe in nothing, the truth makes itself self evident. I agree children shouldn’t be exposed to the horrors of war, neither should adults. sometimes you have to do something regrettable, to avoid something evil.
You are also equating capitalism with democracy here.
That is also flawed thinking.
What helps countries is a middle class. See: the Russians vs. the Dutch.
It doesn’t particularly matter what system creates that middle class (though historically the middle class has been the merchant class).
And I certainly fail to see where your line of thinking goes or ends. Overall it seems pretty worthless and excessively violent to me. How to stop terrorism? Bomb them to death and brainwash them! Delightful solution!
I like how in rejecting ideologies, you have failed to learn from them. Is it not better to examine an ideology and see what makes it worthwhile and take that into your being? Isn’t that the purpose of self-cultivation? The system you propose is terribly stagnant and ultimately barren. If you cannot see an ideology you disagree with, yet still find something to learn from it, then you are foolish indeed.
I can’t be bothered having a discussion if you can’t even comprehend the simplest of arguments. Extremist or moderate ideologies cannot be defined in terms of violence if both are commiting equivalent acts of violence.
Honestly, it’s like having a discussion with bowl of fruit!
Please continue your childish anti-muslim ranting without any further interuption from me…
of course… You have two pieces of the puzzle that logically fit together in front of you, but the knowledge you have within your head is keeping you from seeing the truth and making the correct and right connection.
please… forced democracy doesn’t work. It’s got to be a slow process of idealogical change. One thing I suggested elsewhere is that we just start dropping porno and art and music on their countries.
I love how you think I agree with our current policies.
LOL
Why? The russians failed to correctly adapt capitalism, so the example is moot. I would agree a middle class does help economy… there is no middle class in socialism though. Everyone is brought down to the same mediocre level.
can you quote me on that?
I said, unfortunately violence is necessary. If we go into any of these countries waving any sort of counter idealogy (which is what they need to be truly free.) We’d get our heads chopped off nicholas berg style. Or we’d get blown up with hezbollah style rockets, with ball bearing shrapnel.
The point is, that to go in unarmed is suicide.
Frankly I don’t like the “bomb them to death” scenario. This connects to “are atheists mentally ill” thread. They were born and raised in an environment that breeds hatred for the rest of the world. And it always has. Islam was built through the Quran and Hadith to be completely intolerant of other cultures and religions.
It’d be like talking to a christian that’s been a christian all their lives and telling them christ is a myth. And you’ve got archealogical proof to back it up.
Do you think they are going to drop their myth for reality?
The situation is much more dire in Islam. THe stakes much higher.
Fate has not smiled upon those born within muslim countries and I truly feel sorrowful for those children that are constantly bred with such a hatred towards others.
I don’t need to autopsy a cobra to know that it kills. I don’t need to disect a scorpion to see that it’s full of venom.
Is there something worthwhile about these animals? OF COURSE. Study of them will teach us how to cure the problem. But don’t expect to garner anything worthwhile from the philosophy of a cobra or scorpion.
I find these kinds of statemens of relativism absolutely astounding… The truth to me seems so obvious. If you are willing to use your babies bottle as an explosive primer, you are an evil bitch.
If you are giving “martyrdom glory” comics to 5 and 6 year olds… you are an evil bastard.
If you teach about how you want to utterly destroy all the infidels in the world, starting with Israel… you are an evil bastard.
Your statement is utterly useless Ned. Why did we fight Nazism, if we were both using violence who could really tell which side was better right?
I completely agree with and understand what it is your saying . It does seem very obvious . I,ve said this for years . I think Mohammed may have been onto something , but most of his so called “followers” have perverted what teachings there are of his , and made them very unreasonable , like the christians have done with Jesus and his Ideals . As long as folk think in this way there will be trouble in the world
Thus far you’ve given me very little to believe that you don’t.
As you’ve outlined it:
Islam is evil.
Islam is recidivistic
We need to stop Islam at all costs.
To stop Islam, we need to replace their ideology with ours.
A rather weak standing, don’t you think?
As for the Russia/Dutch comment, for someone who claims to have an understanding of history you sure managed to look in the wrong place.
The Netherlands really took off at about the same time Russia really started to fall apart. Ironically, Russia was fairly politically stable at the time, while the Dutch were involved in a rather nasty civil war.
disagree. Read biographies or Mohammed that muslims don’t disagree with. He was a mad tyrant who added verses to the koran to justify his behavior.
from another thread I started “on right and wrong”
Islam idealogy can lead easier to acts that should be defined as evil.
I think the history of the religion points that out don’t you?
We need to change Islam at all costs.
not necessarily. remember not to long ago, christianity was drenched in violence and unethical treatment of others. We don’t need to replace their idealogy, we need to nudge it in the right direction.
I think a rather weak standing is to do nothing. Look how well it worked for Germany? They did everything they could to appease the terrorists and still had an attempted bombing plot. It was just foiled this morning.
Russia was never politically stable, and still to this day is fighting between capitalism and communism. The dutch is a more capitalist country and thus even though they were engaged in a nasty civil war, they were still able to prosper.