Religious Hate on ILP

08.18.06.1417

Taking a browse in the Religion forum (something I don’t usually do these days anymore since the plague of PoR was eradicated), I noticed a growing intolerance of religious beliefs by those of differing theological systems. This intolerance springs forth from Christian points of view… but why? Personally, I don’t mind the Christian, as long as they mind their own business and respect my right to think and believe what I choose. The same goes for those of other faiths… I don’t mind the Muslim, the Buddhist, etc.

Simply put, retaliation of animosity is justified when earned, not given on the basis of an opposing belief. Now you might be thinking, gee Sagesound, that sounds awfully LaVeyian of you (see Law 11). I would respond: “Sure it does, but even if I’m not a Satanist, that doesn’t mean I don’t agree with most or all of their philosophy.” The same goes for Christianity… I may no longer be one, but I do think many of the world’s problems can be solved with a degree of love and compassion.

Speaking on tolerance… for those who don’t know, Islam is way more tolerant than Christianity. In fact, Muslims have had such a high degree of tolerance to others so much to the point of their leaders (the Mughal Akbar in India for example) appointing persons of differing religious beliefs as government administrators and making life not so much of a burden for non-Muslims in a Muslim dominated world. Of course, this learned tolerance comes from the Qu’ran having spoken of The People of the Book; meaning Jews and Christians as adherents of the Abrahamic “truth” who have only been simply… misguided.
Meanwhile… you have the New Testament of the Bible which basically sets up a fugue of religious hate mainly towards Judaism.

Then there’s the East/West schism… Western religions teaching to find enlightenment (or whatever they want to call it) through exterior things (even tangible)… Eastern religions teaching to find enlightenment through the inner… and whenever these two mix and mingle, there’s problems. Gnosticism and Mithraism in the West subdued by the rise of Christianity… in the East you have Christian Missionaries being exiled (or worse) for preaching heresy.

I could go on with more examples… but let’s get to the chase.

Given our differences, why can’t some people see through their narrow dogmatism to find a common ground and respect others for their ideas? (Please don’t say theological crap like: “Because they’re wrong!”)

[size=167]Why can’t we all just… get along?[/size]

…an even better question: why do some people have to consistently try to validate the pressumed superiority of their religion above everyone else’s? Is it ego? No… I think it’s deeper than that. Could it be… insecurity?

For all that, I must have misread you. The beginning of your post makes it sound like you think the problem is the 3 or so posting Christians on the board being intolerant to everybody else, and not the other way around.
Must have misread you.

08.18.06.1419

Alas… I did, and I didn’t.

You have read me, and you have misread me.

Unlearn what you have learned.

Regardless, I ask you good sir… who is more intolerant? The one who threw the stone, or the one who threw it back?

Well I think that the bottom line is that people think their religion is right and therefore they will not accept other religions because the validness of other religions tells them that their religion is bust and nobody wants their religion to be bust. Christians also have a business to run I mean c’mon it’s like McDonald’s, they don’t acknowledge competition. Maybe the Christian demographic could explain, or the teaching in the bible which I admit I don’t know all too well, but hardly care to know especially based on common Christian attitudes, those people are annoying.

Certain posters do aggravate me simply because of self-righteousness. Ucc tho is a great poster and does many things to aid the Christian posters but not everyone can be like that. So I think you are seeing our frustration (everyone else) manifest itself through repeated posts by other people. I do question certain facets of Christianity but still respect their believes at times. Other times not so much.

I agree we should be able to respect others beliefs while still discussing them on an unbiased level.

Hatred seems to reflect and only runs dry of energy when someone cracks to the point of humility. However, Christianity doesn’t teach hatred, it teaches kindness, compassion, and understanding. Christ took in sin, he didn’t let it bounce back. This is the foundation, or basis by which all Christians should feed from. I see many, even Christians, who stereotype others beliefs as well as their own. You seem smart, but yet you’ve stereotyped Christians as well, you’ve chucked them all into one category.
Christians have flaws, and you can’t expect us not to. But most of the time this anger has been the reflection of hatred that someone else has constructed. It doesn’t make much sense that you’ve chosen a broad generalization for Christians, and made that the center of your post. For the most part, religion is being attacked on this forum, and more than half of it is Christianity. It’s been called a “Bizzare Fairy Tale” by some, foolish by others, and yet they haven’t even studied it from various standpoints. I should be attacking atheism, but I’m not, I’m defending Christianity. Bottom line is the Bible doesn’t teach many of the practices you see from so-called Christians, so don’t generalize them as you have done, judge them individually. Thanks for reading.

Well, it depends how you define tolerance and hate. I respect your right to think and say whatever you choose. However, if you’re definition of “intolerance” is merely speaking up when I think someone is being foolish, then I guess I’m intolerant. And if “hate” is defined as believing that religious observance outside of Christianity is as useful as underwater cricket, then I guess I’m full of hate too. But then again, it sounds to me like you have your own intolerant and hateful agenda too.

Ucci,

There are more than that.

Sage,

I think part of the problem comes from the fact that is is a philosophy site. Very few (at least here) hardcore Christians are adept enough to deal with the philosophical onslaught many of us can throw at them if we so wish. After a while “But I believe!” wears thin in a certain sense.

This is not to say that we’re right, I wouldn’t be so arrogant as to take that stance, but I feel that a certain hostility develops from the sense that we (seem to be able to) criticize them quite easily, but in return it is quite hard to criticize ‘philosophical athiests’ from a Christian without running into a logical circularity (you’re wrong because you don’t believe). Plus, comparatively, there are simply too many, with too may different sound dogmatic theories rooted, and self expounded, through pragmatic reason.

Well, honestly, I think it’s just a fight mentality. You’ve always have a group of people here who were criticizing Christianity with a schoolyard approach, who aren’t really interested in any arguments or evidence. They were mostly ignored, because they didn’t have anything of value to say- the few people here interested in defending Christianity (me, or sometimes me and one other person) didn’t want to talk to those guys, so their presence didn’t matter. But recently, we’ve had like 4 Christians step into the fray. They seem to be very interested in defending Christianity, AND they seem to be operating on about the same level as the long-time detractors. We also have a couple of new skeptics as well.

Now that was funny! You should do comedy! On behalf of us poor unintelligent Christians I would like to be the first to thank you for taking the time out of your busy day to help us understand philosophy 101. I’m sure we’d all be lost without you.

Ned- I think you just managed to make my point AND Gobbo’s. Neat trick!

because we like attaching ourselves to exclusionary idealogues.

Because some idealogies are dangerous to the world, and if they are not met with some level of violence, they will destroy and destroy until there is nothing left to destroy.

Sorry I’m not down for that PC, relativistic crap. Not all beliefs are practiced or created equally.

And those beliefs that refuse to modernize, and follow the literal word of their holy book, need to be dealt with, WITH THE TRUTHsize=59[/size], and not with some soft buttery flowery bullshit, that equalizes all beliefs.

I hate to tell you this, but… Not all beliefs are equally wise, or equally sane.

Ned,

Did you see your name anywhere in that post?

Your response is indicative of the type of annoyance I speak of, in which your projecting your need to feel right in the face of reason. I’m not just spouting nonsense here, philosophy is based on logic, and (Christian) religion is most definitely not. It is not to say one is better, merely that one is usually more useful in an argumentative sense.

I don’t personally feel there is a right or wrong way. Personally, I think we’re all on a different path with the aim of achieving the same state of mind – one which is available no matter what your beliefs are. You, on the other hand do not. Christians believe that it is a mistake not to believe.

With me so far?

So following from the above, I believe that the hostility (on both sides) comes from the sense of urgency present in (Christian) religiously inclined individuals, in comparison to the failure on the part of the philosopher to get anywhere by using pure logic and deduction. They both feel like they’re talking to a brick wall, essentially – at least in the hostile cases.

Like I said, I would surely seem Atheist to you and Ned and some of the rest, but I assure you I am quite religious in my chosen way. I do not feel there is a right or wrong. I simply like to explore the finer details.

How so? I think his point and yours was pretty dumb. The idea that this “hate” probelm arises from the presence of a bunch of Christians who don’t know their ass from their elbow is incorrect. There are just as many innane conversations started around here by athiest as Christians. Plus, there’s this whole “higher philosophy” crap going around here that really gets my goat. Christianity is a simple religion and it doesn’t take a genius to grasp the essentials. But to assume that this makes Christian thought or ethics inherently less valuable than the innane babblings of long dead philosophers is a big assumption that I would question. But this is probably not the time to get into that…

Dealt with in a gentle manner. I never said I wanted them equalized, but they need to be respected. It looks foolish for someone to attack someone elses beliefs without knowing the true content and reasoning behind those beliefs. Thus, this is why we discuss. We learn what others have to say and then we question with care.

 Well, let me put this as politely as possible. There's always been a number of atheists here who, intelligent as I am sure they are,  like to argue as though they don't know their ass from their elbow. Recently, a bunch of Christians have come on board who seem to enjoy talking to them. Say what you like about deep philosophy or old dead guys, I can respect you not wanting to talk about them- but if you see someone say, "Why is relegous people so tupid!?!" and you indulge that guy in conversation because you don't like the 'deep stuff', then you get what you paid for.

No, but am I not free to state my opinion?

I never said that Christianity was based on logic. And to say that this somehow makes it less useful in discussion displays a certain prejudice on your part.

I think so. But as you know, us Christians sometimes struggle with the big words you philosophers use.

I would say that if you feel like talking with Christians is like talking to a brick wall then you are approaching the discussion with a certain amount of immaturity. If you feel frustrated that you can’t talk logical sense into followers of Christ then you have a glimpse of the frustration of Christians feel as they talk to atheists or those of other faiths. The frustration arises because one side has assumed that if enough talking occurs then the other side will be convinced by your argument. In actuality his will happen very rarely. To be honest, I think athiests are more prone to assumption than Christians, since athiests usually assume that they are more intelligent than Christians and a few intellectual magic tricks will suffice.

However, if you drop your assumption that the other side will suddenly be persuaded by the beauty of your argument (be it founded in logic or faith) then you’ll probably get less frustrated and you might actually find areas where you can learn from the other. Such is the value of discussion between athiests and Christians. Take it or leave it, but don’t start telling me that Christians are dumb and their viewpoint too primitive to take part in discussion here. That’s what it sounded like to me.

Athiest or believer in something else. It makes no difference to me.

The time for gentileness has got to come to an end.

Look around muslim countries…

in turkey… where “muslim moderation” reigns supreme:

20% would justify a sucide bombing in defense of Islam. More than double that, if it involves Israel.

Like every other Muslim country the number one selling book, is Mein Kempf. Coincidence? NO. Did you know that muslims helped hitler round up jews during WW2?

Probably not.

Islam is not, nor has never been a religion of peace, it’s a religion of conquest and terror. Don’t believe the whitewash, and force the religion to change.

One way it could start, is realizing that they are all brothers and sisters of Abraham. All three (judaism, christianity and Islam) start with Abraham.

What will it take, Iran launching a nuke at Israel, to wake you guys up?

He’s already threatened the US with such. (any of you pay attention to current events? or you just like defending idealogies that make disgusting comments?)

How many ways to sunday can you take “death to america”, or “death to Israel”?

Instead of trying to run an autopsy on their statements, maybe you should listen?

08.18.06.1420

Pardon me… but are you saying that you believe there can be no bias when required? Just because we may have the courtesy to tolerate another’s belief, that does not in hand support that we should think of that person with an unbiased mind.

If you read my post… you would find that I knew that. Which reminds me, if you think at all that my responses are based on bias of belief, I should make it clear that it is in fact on the based on the bias of assumptions. Allow me to illustrate…

Have I? Please re-read my first post. I have now illustrated my point. Also, please don’t make anymore assumptions about me and then attempt to validate them. Thank you.

Let me also make a point that I find it fascinating how some of you have thought of me as singling out Christianity. Perhaps if I actually did single out just Islam, would you all be posting such rash comments??

Yeah, I hate people who come to this site and fail to approach topics with an open mind, the ability to logically reason and weigh the data presented, cogently concieve a cohesive thesis on their thoughts or opinions, and not assume more than they think they do.

Having said that, let me say that I only know as much about a person as they give me from what they write on this site. If you make it a habit to make off-hand insults through your responses without a level of courtesy or even no courtesy under any other circumstance, I would find you as not being a person of lesser maturity. But personally Ned, I haven’t; although I don’t think Gobbo thinks the same of you as I because of your recent words to him.

Now… considering the percieved vehemence of this post… would you think of me as being hateful to you, or simply lashing out because you have misread me?

Ned,

Wow

You totally missed all my points.

I’m obviously not going to continue to talk to you about this because it’s a waste of my time from what I’ve seen in the way of responses.

Just quickly though:

Actually no, if you re-read I think you’ll find all the info to continue this discussion, should you want to re-attempt.