Noble Islam

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Noble Islam

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:55 am

I believe that this religions is capable of producing nobility. I don't have to believe to see that it is also capable of producing disgrace.
What would have to be isolated in the teachings of Mahomet, in order to cultivate a noble muslim?

What would have to be rejected?
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Re: Noble Islam

Postby Xunzian » Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:44 pm

I think it would be sufficient to remove the thought of Ghazali.
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Re: Noble Islam

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:26 pm

Xunzian wrote:I think it would be sufficient to remove the thought of Ghazali.

Ive done some research of him beyond the what I found on the internet, and which would have supported your proposition otherwise. Here's what a friend to whom I wrote for background had to say;

---As regards El Ghazali: I have so far only read one book by him. The title is called "the elixir of happiness". At a time when it meant mixing different elixirs tried to make gold, he muses in this book how the 'gold' of the heart can be discovered. In short, plenty impressive Islamic philosophy. At our next meeting I take him for you. Please remember it!

The information on Wikipedia is shortsighted and almost misleading! Orientalism at its best, so watch out! Ghazali made a very important contribution to Islamic sciences. He was known as a champion of "ishtihad '(time-theological renewal discussion), one of the most important concepts is to fight dogma in Islam because" the Quran applies at all times "so that Islam is not a dogmatic religion. Not for nothing have the "dogmatist" a distaste for Ghazali. The intellectual poverty in the Islamic world ascribed to Him is therefore in my view is incorrect. The problem is not Ghazali, but with the in Western terms - "enlightened" and - in Islamic terms - "pro-ishtihad 'scholars, that ishtihad is no longer applied in the Islamic world, while this was certainly a standard and important process in Islam, since the Prophet. Ghazali became in fact, like Marx victim of history: one well-meaning theory, a philosophy launched as a solution to the abuses of his time, but unfortunately abused by politicians to achieve their own purposes (power). Therefore, in this case nuance (and actually fix on Wikipedia) is in place.---
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Re: Noble Islam

Postby Star Travel » Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:16 am

Fixed Cross wrote:I believe that this religions is capable of producing nobility. I don't have to believe to see that it is also capable of producing disgrace.
What would have to be isolated in the teachings of Mahomet, in order to cultivate a noble muslim?

What would have to be rejected?

First of all, western nations are not islam and should NOT consider islam a viable option to protect under free speech or freedom of expression of religion. Islam and muslims must be ridiculed, slandered, and outcast from western nations. Muslims should be made unwelcome in the united states, and perhaps all of europe.

Remember 9-11? I do. Muslims want to put a mosque on ground zero for obvious reasons. They want a foothold in the new world. The time will come when we need to expel all muslims. They are all terrorists anyway, especially the moderates.


But islam is good in many senses. Islam is a foreign religion and a foreign people, but they have succeeded in preserving their Virtue and Honor in today's world. This is something christians have failed to do, including Evangelical Christian weakminded, morons. Christians are scum of the earth. Christians are barely tolerable. In fact most would feel compelled to side with muslim foreigners over weakling christians. But there is a problem here.

Christians are our own people, our own bloodlines. So we need another, newer option.

We need to abandon christianity altogether and create a new religion specifically designed for westerners and the united states. We need remodel things, and make a new monolithic culture. We need a new noble class. We need a new religion.

If we don't create this by ourselves, and soon, then zionist-jewish-israelites will pull united states into world war 3, the apocalypse, and/or muslims will infiltrate usa even more than they have now, and conquer us from the inside-out like a cancer.


So we need to work together, starting right now, to discriminate who are our enemies, friends, and foes. Muslims are enemies, because of 9-11, and they want to conquer europe and even united states. Jews are neutral, because they need united states protection, and we need their money. So the relationships are somewhat balanced.

We have some time while muslims conquer europe, which they are trying to do right now. But we don't have very much time.


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Re: Noble Islam

Postby Star Travel » Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:18 am

Fixed Cross wrote:What would have to be rejected?

We have to reject ALL of islam and muslims.

What we need to do is create our own nobility, based on our own standards and creative values. Nietzsche was correct. We need to create.
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Re: Noble Islam

Postby Abstract » Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:55 am

Fixed Cross wrote:I believe that this religions is capable of producing nobility. I don't have to believe to see that it is also capable of producing disgrace.
What would have to be isolated in the teachings of Mahomet, in order to cultivate a noble muslim?

What would have to be rejected?


I believe they would have to reject the teachings that women are less then men... (and slavery which has already been done)and mostly not take the hadiths as an authority but rather things worth giving a read... and they would need to read the qur'an themselves of course... Beyond that not much needs to be dealt with in the quran most of it is rather reasonable as long as one does not interpret it in the wrong way...
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Re: Noble Islam

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:37 pm

Whereas I find Star Travels generalizing utterly ridiculous and assume that he understands why, I agree with him that the West has a certain obligation to itself to fortify itself in face of the 'aien' valies of Islam. These values are extraordinarily powerful, and even many muslims are unhappy about this. I am willing to wager that far more muslims than would speak out on this hope that the West will not decline in power too deeply, that Islamic government does not become all-powerful. It simply is too weak. It's nonsense. As a faith I admire Islam, as a political pretender I think it's absurd. Separation of state and church is essential to my political thinking - politics must aspire to a social-economic logic, not a mythical, world-condemning one.

Where we can not take political measures against islam without making it stronger in its opposition to us, what is still open to us and invisible to them is our domain of religion.

I propose then now as a Westerner - I AM THE FIRST OF MANY - that a new Western religion HAS RISEN.

WHAT HAS RISEN?
Ask yourself.
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Re: Noble Islam

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:13 pm

Star Travel wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:What would have to be rejected?

We have to reject ALL of islam and muslims.

What we need to do is create our own nobility, based on our own standards and creative values. Nietzsche was correct. We need to create.

But we are creating. We invented the internet, they're using it to become more like us. But we need even more power over them -- we need to deify (or perhaps only no longer defy) our creative power. Not to ourselves, but as a mask to the outside. The Chinese and the muslims, they must still bow to us, to our imagination. This is how we beat them - at their own game. Our religion shall beat theirs.

The structure of their power is in daily rhythm and obedience. We can only fight this with our western, Atlantic values -- rebellion against oppressive authority, aspire to rational self-government. In many muslim hearts, these values are alive already. In their minds they can often not logically attain to it. It is not a psychological axiom for them as it is for us. We have invented the symbolic autocratic revolt, neither the Chinese nor the Muslims have such a ladder to God. Christ conceives of it, as he places authority of God in his own hands.

We will strill teach Christianity to these savages! It is still in our blood and for many centuries to come. But a non-obedient Christianity, the mind of a creator, an architect of life, to whom there are no values but love and power, which are the sublimations of meditation on the Father and the Mother (virgin or not).

Yes, the past 2000 may be seen as a training in meditation and imagination. The west has a supremely delicately developed cognitive infrastructure, it is impossible that we will not influence the growing economies. I'd advise that we do it more consciously, more as an honest cultural effort than a hypocritical byproduct of economic enslavement. Present philosophy, offer it, as pearls and mirrors.

Those who are savages will take it gladly.
Those who are above it will not take it seriously, underestimate it.
A few radicals will understand it, and fight it -- they will become the object of both resentment and contempt.

[EDIT I may add that this is all written in the spirit of approaching the meaning I can find in the tirade against Islam and Christianity, set in the context of a religious discussion. In philosophy, it would have been irrelevant, and such a position as I have taken here must be explained in different terms first.]
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Re: Noble Islam

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:33 pm

Abstract wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:I believe that this religions is capable of producing nobility. I don't have to believe to see that it is also capable of producing disgrace.
What would have to be isolated in the teachings of Mahomet, in order to cultivate a noble muslim?

What would have to be rejected?


I believe they would have to reject the teachings that women are less then men... (and slavery which has already been done)and mostly not take the hadiths as an authority but rather things worth giving a read... and they would need to read the qur'an themselves of course... Beyond that not much needs to be dealt with in the quran most of it is rather reasonable as long as one does not interpret it in the wrong way...

Yes -- but the problem is that this is a sexual matter. A certain type of woman likes being withdrawn from official responsibility, they like to hide behind a shield of innocence, while manipulating behind the scenes. So do men like to hide their incompetence behind their macho behavior. It is a power-game. Not unattractive, so very tenacious. Weakness in both is stimulated by it. Whether or not this is normative depends on tradition and temperament, I would say. In Europe, this tendency is not at all as prevalent anymore among muslims as it used to be. But -- Islam is a shame-culture. We are unfamiliar with that. We traditionally have a mix between a guilt and a self-contempt culture. We're not much ashamed of anything -- you can see where Islam has certain values over us, and might begin to teach as we honestly challenge it. What I know of Islam is that the individual gains a sense of stability as he relinquishes power to a God, who takes away his sins from his conscience. Its rituals are not as psychological as catholicism, but they are physical, very strongly effective on the nervous system and the organs, the timely bowing stretching and chanting, resting the neck and shoulders. Next to this daily influence on dedicated muslims, the ramadan provides an ordeal and a joy afterwards that is perhaps exclusive to an unquestioningly submissive attitude to religion.
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Re: Noble Islam

Postby Abstract » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:42 am

Fixed Cross wrote:
Abstract wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:I believe that this religions is capable of producing nobility. I don't have to believe to see that it is also capable of producing disgrace.
What would have to be isolated in the teachings of Mahomet, in order to cultivate a noble muslim?

What would have to be rejected?


I believe they would have to reject the teachings that women are less then men... (and slavery which has already been done)and mostly not take the hadiths as an authority but rather things worth giving a read... and they would need to read the qur'an themselves of course... Beyond that not much needs to be dealt with in the quran most of it is rather reasonable as long as one does not interpret it in the wrong way...

Yes -- but the problem is that this is a sexual matter. A certain type of woman likes being withdrawn from official responsibility, they like to hide behind a shield of innocence, while manipulating behind the scenes. So do men like to hide their incompetence behind their macho behavior. It is a power-game. Not unattractive, so very tenacious. Weakness in both is stimulated by it. Whether or not this is normative depends on tradition and temperament, I would say. In Europe, this tendency is not at all as prevalent anymore among muslims as it used to be. But -- Islam is a shame-culture. We are unfamiliar with that. We traditionally have a mix between a guilt and a self-contempt culture. We're not much ashamed of anything -- you can see where Islam has certain values over us, and might begin to teach as we honestly challenge it. What I know of Islam is that the individual gains a sense of stability as he relinquishes power to a God, who takes away his sins from his conscience. Its rituals are not as psychological as catholicism, but they are physical, very strongly effective on the nervous system and the organs, the timely bowing stretching and chanting, resting the neck and shoulders. Next to this daily influence on dedicated muslims, the ramadan provides an ordeal and a joy afterwards that is perhaps exclusive to an unquestioningly submissive attitude to religion.

Participating in Ramadan is a thing to experience. maybe if Americans did that more we would have less fat people, as they would be more disciplined.
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Re: Noble Islam

Postby Xunzian » Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:43 am

We are talking at crossed-purposes. By turning the focus of study inward, Ghazali created a gulf between the Islamic and Hellenic traditions, between Islam and rationalism. Prior to Ghazali, the Islamic world was the inheritor of the Roman Empire. Yet the Islamic world fell victim to the same anti-axial age as India and China. Only backwards Europe was left unaffected because their people were too simple to understand the revolution occurring. But that very simplicity is why they were then able to conquer the world.
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Re: Noble Islam

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:17 pm

Xunzian -- whatever Ghazali's role has been exactly it appears that you have located at least one axis of the problem. Thanks for that. I will have to read some of his work to find out the nature of his intellect.

Abstract -- I would have to disagree, I do not at all think that muslims are among the most disciplined people -- my impression is even that they are among the least disciplined. I think that this has to do with the obedient nature of their culture, the slavishness of their religion and thereby populace. Islam as it dominates now simply makes real-world effort value-less.

If we were to (re) learn discipline, we'd have to find new motivation, or look at the Chinese. I doubt that ramadan is actually healthy.
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Re: Noble Islam

Postby Abstract » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:35 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Xunzian -- whatever Ghazali's role has been exactly it appears that you have located at least one axis of the problem. Thanks for that. I will have to read some of his work to find out the nature of his intellect.

Abstract -- I would have to disagree, I do not at all think that muslims are among the most disciplined people -- my impression is even that they are among the least disciplined. I think that this has to do with the obedient nature of their culture, the slavishness of their religion and thereby populace. Islam as it dominates now simply makes real-world effort value-less.

If we were to (re) learn discipline, we'd have to find new motivation, or look at the Chinese. I doubt that ramadan is actually healthy.

Perhaps you are right in that the Muslims follow what aspects that are disciplined-seeming due to social pressure largely perhaps rather then as much fair recognition that it is correct. But then many Muslims deeply believe in their religion and in that sense I find that there capacity to devote to such stringent practices rather disciplined, regardless of actual value.

I don't see how skipping one meal for a month would necessarily be unhealthy... it might effect the metabolism I guess...
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Re: Noble Islam

Postby Cezar » Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:53 am

Fixed Cross wrote:
Star Travel wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:What would have to be rejected?

We have to reject ALL of islam and muslims.

What we need to do is create our own nobility, based on our own standards and creative values. Nietzsche was correct. We need to create.

But we are creating. We invented the internet, they're using it to become more like us.



lol

Was Zarathustra an utilitarian or was he exactly against the sly utilitarianism?

In creating an internet you are neglecting your morals which leads to your self-destruction. You have no time and mental strength to be utilitaristic and to be moral. The modern man is too modest to have any other morals than the Chinese one. You are becoming a Chinese if you don't die out.

There where you build morals and utilitaristic science and knowledge, Zarathustra is building moral values which mean life.
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Re: Noble Islam

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:08 pm

Cezar wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:
Star Travel wrote:What we need to do is create our own nobility, based on our own standards and creative values. Nietzsche was correct. We need to create.

But we are creating. We invented the internet, they're using it to become more like us.



lol

Was Zarathustra an utilitarian or was he exactly against the sly utilitarianism?

In creating an internet you are neglecting your morals which leads to your self-destruction. You have no time and mental strength to be utilitaristic and to be moral. The modern man is too modest to have any other morals than the Chinese one. You are becoming a Chinese if you don't die out.

There where you build morals and utilitaristic science and knowledge, Zarathustra is building moral values which mean life.
The loss of the spirit is irreversible.

I had already gathered from your PM that you are not very accurate in your assessments, but here I see glimpses of severe confusion that this inaccuracy might be due to.

What you imply here seems to be that Zarathustra would have us strengthen our morals at the cost of our creativity. I do not see any merit in this interpretation, nor any ground for it.
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Re: Noble Islam

Postby Cezar » Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:00 am

Your "creativity" is just a slave in the service of Christianity - prove that you have no morals and that your "creativity" does not descend from religion which still believes in Christian "laws"! Isn't your "creativity" aspiring to imitate "god, the creator of worlds"? With what right?

Your decadent "creativity" serves only to people like Chinese who can copy very well and produce for the lowest price!

While your Christianity is hindering the creation of a higher human being and all humanist arts an culture!

And this culture means: MASTER MORALS YES - as imperative NOT, because happiness and beauty is an imperative of every free man in itself! That is what life is. Your decadent "creativity" is death!

If your utilitarian "culture" is afraid of a higher culture, then to hell with modernity!

The prevailing of the Chinese is a sign anyway that your "creativity" is coming to an end! Now you will start to preach the "sleep without dreams"(or nirvana) as Zarathustra says in the Chairs of virtue...
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Re: Noble Islam

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:17 pm

Cezar wrote:Your "creativity" is just a slave in the service of Christianity - prove that you have no morals and that your "creativity" does not descend from religion which still believes in Christian "laws"! Isn't your "creativity" aspiring to imitate "god, the creator of worlds"? With what right?
Your decadent "creativity" serves only to people like Chinese who can copy very well and produce for the lowest price!

While your Christianity is hindering the creation of a higher human being and all humanist arts an culture!

And this culture means: MASTER MORALS YES - as imperative NOT, because happiness and beauty is an imperative of every free man in itself! That is what life is. Your decadent "creativity" is death!

If your utilitarian "culture" is afraid of a higher culture, then to hell with modernity!

The prevailing of the Chinese is a sign anyway that your "creativity" is coming to an end! Now you will start to preach the "sleep without dreams"(or nirvana) as Zarathustra says in the Chairs of virtue...

You fucking moron.
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Re: Noble Islam

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:03 pm

This troll called Cezar is sending me PM's witth idiotic insults, but he has disabled his inbox, so I can't reply. And I can't seem to block him. I'll add him as a foe, hopefully that'll filter his spam.
Cezar, I am just thankful that I do not resemble your ideal. That is all there is to say between us. I won't be reading your messages, on the board or PM, so you might as well stop stalking me.
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Re: Noble Islam

Postby PavlovianModel146 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:01 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
Cezar wrote:Your "creativity" is just a slave in the service of Christianity - prove that you have no morals and that your "creativity" does not descend from religion which still believes in Christian "laws"! Isn't your "creativity" aspiring to imitate "god, the creator of worlds"? With what right?
Your decadent "creativity" serves only to people like Chinese who can copy very well and produce for the lowest price!

While your Christianity is hindering the creation of a higher human being and all humanist arts an culture!

And this culture means: MASTER MORALS YES - as imperative NOT, because happiness and beauty is an imperative of every free man in itself! That is what life is. Your decadent "creativity" is death!

If your utilitarian "culture" is afraid of a higher culture, then to hell with modernity!

The prevailing of the Chinese is a sign anyway that your "creativity" is coming to an end! Now you will start to preach the "sleep without dreams"(or nirvana) as Zarathustra says in the Chairs of virtue...

You fucking moron.


I would not normally take action in the thread of another Moderator, but this post is clearly violative of the Rules of the Religion Forum.

Board Warning Issued, Second Warning, 24 Hour Ban.

Fixed Cross, if you are able to prove your allegations in the previous post, you are welcome to do so when your ban is completed.
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Re: Noble Islam

Postby Jayson » Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:02 pm

I am locking this thread during investigation.

Considering the nature of the allegations from both sides, I am removing the ban placed by Pav temporarily until I have seen all evidences of the altercations between parties.
Fixed Cross, I have sent you a PM with further request of information in this measure.
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