The divine anxiety

For intuitive and critical discussions, from spirituality to theological doctrines. Fair warning: because the subject matter is personal, moderation is strict.

Moderator: Dan~

The divine anxiety

Postby Amorphos » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:03 pm

The divine anxiety

I don’t believe that duality can be the basis of reality, that there can be god and satan good and evil. For me the divine position is external to existence and or situations, something like the third person perspective. As such it can perceive all the ills which occur in life, disease, tortures, depression etc. primarily then, as the thing which will be born into the world, the divine desire is to avoid as much suffering and such as possible.

It is not simply the case that good will defeat evil in some kind of reckoning or by magic, there is no such magic hence its an ongoing struggle to live in a manner with produces the least amount of suffering. It may be so that suffering forges us in its furnace but only if we survive it.

I’d say that the rightful purpose - if I may, of religion, is to such ends; to create a life it can endure with the least amount of destruction. In every instance where more suffering is caused e.g. witch burning or prior to that wicker man burning of human beings, that is an anti religious activity! There can be no excuses! Any kind of torture and suffering otherwise unnecessarily imposed upon the born soul of divinity, in also an anti religious activity. It doesn’t make any difference what religion you belong to the act remains the same.
Artist, designer, druid.

the truth is naked,
once it is written it is lost.
genius is the result of the entire product of man.
righteousness itself is divisive.
User avatar
Amorphos
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4435
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:49 pm
Location: infinity

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Dan~ » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:14 am

Here we go again someone trying to be positive about religion.
Religion contains good things, but criminals contain good qualities also.
Corruption doesn't have to be 100% before something is ruined.
Religion is ruined. Religion doesn't really reduce suffering.

I agree that reality isn't based in duality though.

Avoiding suffering is natural, it's not divine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLz1GSkJeks
I truly believe that skunks are one of the best animals on earth.
Stop being wrong about stuff. ~Gobbo.
User avatar
Dan~
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8856
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:14 am
Location: May the loving spirit of papa hitler watch over and bless you all.

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Amorphos » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:39 pm

Positive? Religion, goes against what should be the prime directive - let us say, it causes suffering, makes sacrifices, tortures and burns what it disagrees with.
Here I merely provide a very simple idea that any righteous or non-dualistic person of any religion should/could agree with, and challenge them to say anything else is right. …it’s a philosophical tool.

Avoiding suffering is natural, it's not divine.


I’d say it at least derives from the human idea of the divine, nature is dualistic in the extreme. Consider Vikings Vs monks, the former are natural.
Artist, designer, druid.

the truth is naked,
once it is written it is lost.
genius is the result of the entire product of man.
righteousness itself is divisive.
User avatar
Amorphos
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4435
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:49 pm
Location: infinity

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Flannel Jesus » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:58 pm

quetzalcoatl wrote:
Avoiding suffering is natural, it's not divine.


I’d say it at least derives from the human idea of the divine, nature is dualistic in the extreme. Consider Vikings Vs monks, the former are natural.

Why would you say that? Pretty much all animals try to avoid suffering.

You don't think the Vikings avoided experiencing suffering?
User avatar
Flannel Jesus
For Your Health
 
Posts: 4994
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:32 pm

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Tork » Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:56 pm

This is a casual event of all beings in the universe. There is always a positive and negative to everything, so with belief comes disbelief. This is the stresses that involve most religion, or a Divined Anxiety in this case.
User avatar
Tork
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:05 am

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Dan~ » Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:27 am

Tork wrote:This is a casual event of all beings in the universe. There is always a positive and negative to everything, so with belief comes disbelief. This is the stresses that involve most religion, or a Divined Anxiety in this case.

There's no anti-gravity. There's just gravity. There's antimatter, and polaric charges, but those aren't exactly opposites, even if someone makes them appear to be opposite or dual.

An example is hot and cold. Hot and cold are not opposites. Cold is low amount of vibration, and hot is a high amount of vibration.

Existence is moreso on a scale than it is in two halves.

Evil doesn't produce good, and good does not produce evil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLz1GSkJeks
I truly believe that skunks are one of the best animals on earth.
Stop being wrong about stuff. ~Gobbo.
User avatar
Dan~
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8856
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:14 am
Location: May the loving spirit of papa hitler watch over and bless you all.

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Tork » Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:29 am

Dan~ wrote:
Tork wrote:This is a casual event of all beings in the universe. There is always a positive and negative to everything, so with belief comes disbelief. This is the stresses that involve most religion, or a Divined Anxiety in this case.

There's no anti-gravity. There's just gravity. There's antimatter, and polaric charges, but those aren't exactly opposites, even if someone makes them appear to be opposite or dual.

An example is hot and cold. Hot and cold are not opposites. Cold is low amount of vibration, and hot is a high amount of vibration.

Existence is moreso on a scale than it is in two halves.

Evil doesn't produce good, and good does not produce evil.


At this point in human knowledge, it is hard to believe in a universal action/reaction. Gravity is being forced down into itself by positive and negative forces that act together to form what you see as a singularity known as gravity. As with temperature, an action forced reaction to pull or push atom particles.
Good and evil is a mind manipulation. These are just actions creating reactions, and those actions are decided in you head to be positively effective or negative.
User avatar
Tork
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:05 am

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Amorphos » Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:02 pm

Why would you say that? Pretty much all animals try to avoid suffering.


They also make every attempt to cause suffering, in that they eat, fuck, fight.

You don't think the Vikings avoided experiencing suffering?


Sure but they positively enjoyed war and the experience of the battle [and all that went with that]. If death was inevitable their philosophy was to face it, dive into it sometimes with great glee.
--

This is a casual event of all beings in the universe. There is always a positive and negative to everything, so with belief comes disbelief. This is the stresses that involve most religion, or a Divined Anxiety in this case.


I’d say these are the stresses in the world and nature, divinity surely should seek to go beyond that, or at least never form a basis to it [e.g. witch trials, sacrifice].
--

An example is hot and cold. Hot and cold are not opposites. Cold is low amount of vibration, and hot is a high amount of vibration.
Existence is moreso on a scale than it is in two halves.


Absolutely!
_
Artist, designer, druid.

the truth is naked,
once it is written it is lost.
genius is the result of the entire product of man.
righteousness itself is divisive.
User avatar
Amorphos
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4435
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:49 pm
Location: infinity

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Flannel Jesus » Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:07 pm

You haven't really demonstrated how avoiding suffering is anything but natural.
User avatar
Flannel Jesus
For Your Health
 
Posts: 4994
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:32 pm

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Amorphos » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:28 pm

You haven't really demonstrated how avoiding suffering is anything but natural.


that’s true, avoiding suffering is something derived from its opposite. The point here though is that from a spiritual perspective, you would want to be born into a world where you can live with the minimum amount of suffering, and certainly with the maximums removed [torture, painful deaths etc].

We could say that is human, and that includes a spiritual side to it ~ if we include it. Hence we should be making the effort to remove suffering rather than ignoring it. Nature mostly ignores suffering when it occurs to others, humanity makes a difference societally by introducing precedents by which we work to remove sufferings. Religion has been part of that, though naturally we can do the same things without it.

I suppose then, we could ask if we need something like religion for such an ethics implementation, do we need at least a spiritual perspective even if we don’t know if that exists [to use it as the potential that it does]? Why shouldn’t we be entirely selfish and not care if others suffer. I think religion or spirituality gives the selfish an extra impetus to be unselfish, it’s a kind of philosophical socialism or could/should be.

…the thread was aimed at the religious perspective and as a challenge to any such doctrine which seeks to do otherwise.
Artist, designer, druid.

the truth is naked,
once it is written it is lost.
genius is the result of the entire product of man.
righteousness itself is divisive.
User avatar
Amorphos
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4435
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:49 pm
Location: infinity

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Flannel Jesus » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:01 pm

quetzalcoatl wrote:We could say that is human, and that includes a spiritual side to it ~ if we include it.

Obviously anything is included if we include it. Your reasoning to support your claims hasn't been very solid or rigorous in this thread. But I suppose if it was aimed at the religious, it doesn't have to be.
User avatar
Flannel Jesus
For Your Health
 
Posts: 4994
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:32 pm

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Amorphos » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:52 pm

You’re just cherry picking points rather than debating the topic as presented.

What I meant was that we have included it historically but we don’t have to include it, and that we can if we want and then humanity has a spiritual side to it.

I could say that suffering is only spiritual if we consider the mind to also be spiritual, and that if we were merely organic robots there would be nothing there experiencing pain. However we have had such debates in the philosophy forums, and my point here was purely in terms of a religious-philosophical ethic. Saying anything but that would take it all off topic.
Artist, designer, druid.

the truth is naked,
once it is written it is lost.
genius is the result of the entire product of man.
righteousness itself is divisive.
User avatar
Amorphos
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4435
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:49 pm
Location: infinity

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Flannel Jesus » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:01 pm

The topic as presented is muddled and full of claims without justification. But, I think you tend to have a fairly muddled thought process in general. Or at least, if it's not muddled, your presentation of it often is.

For example, this suggests to me a pretty muddled, confused thought process:
What I meant was that we have included it historically but we don’t have to include it, and that we can if we want and then humanity has a spiritual side to it.

So, humanity has a spiritual side to it if we want to include it, but not if we don't? If we don't want to include it, humanity doesn't have a spiritual side?
User avatar
Flannel Jesus
For Your Health
 
Posts: 4994
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:32 pm

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Amorphos » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:47 pm

So, humanity has a spiritual side to it if we want to include it, but not if we don't? If we don't want to include it, humanity doesn't have a spiritual side?


Sure ~ as we don’t know the answer to the question; does spirit exist, then yes you can include it if you think it does or not if you don’t think spirit exists. Clear and simple.

A 7 yr old could understand the op! :roll:

..not that I dont appreciate your questions, I just think they take us into territory outside the context presented, and where there are many other debates which deal with such questions.
Artist, designer, druid.

the truth is naked,
once it is written it is lost.
genius is the result of the entire product of man.
righteousness itself is divisive.
User avatar
Amorphos
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4435
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:49 pm
Location: infinity

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Calrid » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:59 pm

Dan~ wrote:
Tork wrote:This is a casual event of all beings in the universe. There is always a positive and negative to everything, so with belief comes disbelief. This is the stresses that involve most religion, or a Divined Anxiety in this case.

There's no anti-gravity. There's just gravity. There's antimatter, and polaric charges, but those aren't exactly opposites, even if someone makes them appear to be opposite or dual.

An example is hot and cold. Hot and cold are not opposites. Cold is low amount of vibration, and hot is a high amount of vibration.

Existence is moreso on a scale than it is in two halves.

Evil doesn't produce good, and good does not produce evil.


Yeah 'tis not the first time he has insisted on opposites like dark being the opposite of light, er no it isn't that is the lack of light, that would in fact be something that doesn't exist as photons are their own antiparticle. Just a different combination of quarks. Light does the same in any configuration, it therefore has no opposite. Some things do some things don't. It's not a basis for a coherent philosophy.
“I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.”

Oscar Wilde - probably.
User avatar
Calrid
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:54 am

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Amorphos » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:13 pm

^^ interesting about light. So are there very few or no opposites? Is the I-ching fucked? I mean even with something seemingly straight-forwards like the sexes, opposites aren’t so clear.

- magnetism surely has opposites in its polarity?
Artist, designer, druid.

the truth is naked,
once it is written it is lost.
genius is the result of the entire product of man.
righteousness itself is divisive.
User avatar
Amorphos
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4435
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:49 pm
Location: infinity

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Tork » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:15 pm

Flip it.

If there is no light, then there is darkness? Or is there nothing?
Because darkness has no opposite, or because it is missing light?
Are you trying to say that light and dark are the same thing, just in a different state, like water? (Very likely.)
Or maybe you're trying to say that light fits into nothing, thus the creation of light.
but if this any of this is true that must mean there is an opposition to attract light into its appearance.

Everything has a reaction, because everything is acting upon something else. wither that something is acting upon nothing, or vise verse.

Wow, this doesn't make sense? It's time to get your heads out of the textbook.
User avatar
Tork
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:05 am

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Amorphos » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:18 pm

In holistic terms light and dark like day and night are opposites, but beyond that what is darkness, more an emptiness and so not just opposite of light but of everything.
Artist, designer, druid.

the truth is naked,
once it is written it is lost.
genius is the result of the entire product of man.
righteousness itself is divisive.
User avatar
Amorphos
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4435
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:49 pm
Location: infinity

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Calrid » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:49 pm

Tork wrote:Flip it.

If there is no light, then there is darkness? Or is there nothing?
Because darkness has no opposite, or because it is missing light?
Are you trying to say that light and dark are the same thing, just in a different state, like water? (Very likely.)
Or maybe you're trying to say that light fits into nothing, thus the creation of light.
but if this any of this is true that must mean there is an opposition to attract light into its appearance.

Everything has a reaction, because everything is acting upon something else. wither that something is acting upon nothing, or vise verse.

Wow, this doesn't make sense? It's time to get your heads out of the textbook.


No I'm trying to say darkness is not the opposite of light, in fact absolute darkness does not exist.

Get your head in a text book, couldn't hurt. :)

To explain a little further light and "anti-light" are made up of different quarks anti and other, with different properties fundamentally, but because they inherently have the same overall properties they behave in the same way.

Light can produce interference fringes where supposedly there is a lack of observable energy but these points are not zero energy points, they are just light cancelling it's wavelengths out with others. There's no such thing as 0 energy, and there's no such thing as anti-light.

Sound waves have sound and anti-sound, their wavelengths are diametrically opposed too sometimes, when they meet they are cancelled out to produce no sound we can observe, but the energy of both waves still exists in the areas where sound can be heard. The quantum is a little different but as an analogy it is not so troublesome.

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Anti-Light

Read this it will all become clear. ;)
“I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.”

Oscar Wilde - probably.
User avatar
Calrid
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:54 am

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Tork » Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:04 am

Perfect.

Notice how I never said anything of an opposite. (Besides asking if.)*

You've explained the positive and negative effect of light waves on itself.

(Btw, did you actually read this anti-light wiki article? Kind of science fictional. Though I am a fan of zombies)
User avatar
Tork
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:05 am

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Jayson » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:21 am

The primary motive of religion of any format is evocative emotional control of perception.
The divine anxiety of life is effectively leveraging emotional control into a satisfactory emotional result in both quality and magnitude.

We, homo sapiens sapiens, did not have to have this, but we did increase our brain size due to a lack of jaw muscle and became capable of developing marked increase in empathetic and sympathetic emotional sensory which became incredibly gainful in growth and progression.
Part of that tax in this format is reverberation and excitement (literal meaning - as in particles).
Consequence of increased sensitivity to a new range of receiving reverberations and excitement of electrochemical subconscious sensations is a need for dissipation and recess, or there is a fallout of some form that will occur.

Religion, circling back to the first sentence, is primarily motivated by accessing a method of control of this regulation in some producible manner.

It can be used by the individual and of their own accord, or it can be used by others as a leverage of control over individuals for whatever means is seen of pursuit.
That is to say, it can be evoked by an internal motive entirely, or it may be evoked by a mixture of internal and external motives.

It also needs not be religious.
Self help is littered with attempts at offering similar controls.
Music can itself be another for a great deal of people.

However, religion is one fashion of this medium.
It is also the most mature of the systems and this is possibly why it remains so prominently.
It has been around for such a considerable length more, which allows for humanity to layer and layer the complex articulations of the tool sets involved in the medium.

That is what humans do best; we build upon what we have before built.
We increase the articulation of what we have had before by adding unto it a greater depth, diversity, or efficiency.

Had we started some of the modern self help concepts seven thousand years ago, then it would be equally as functionally embedded into our socioeconomic culture as religion is today.
>jaysonthestumps.blogspot.com
>Hebrew, Greek, and more similar resources on ILP

Spiritual: a set of neurological processes dealing with value placement, empathy, and sympathy through the associative truncation of relative identity, and which has reached a value set capable of being described as reverent to the individual, and from which existential experience and reflection is capable explicitly.
User avatar
Jayson
Alaskan Gypsy
 
Posts: 8318
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:53 am
Location: Wasilla, Alaska

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Amorphos » Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:37 pm

…Had we started some of the modern self help concepts seven thousand years ago, then it would be equally as functionally embedded into our socioeconomic culture as religion is today.


Perhaps with the extra sensitivity of the modern brain, we equally ‘needed’ some manner of basis for thinking like that, and that’s where religion comes into it. I think humans generally have this perception which requires a manner of fulfilment, it drives us on all manner of quests for truth and meaning in our lives.
To accompany that the brain has this ’god-helmet’ ability to produce internal imagery and meaning, and present it as if outside ~ as like we experience one another. In one of my visions the imagery was perfectly described in the Egyptian book of the dead ~ which I had never read or heard of at the time, and it wasn’t a common image. Hence I think there is more to it than simply the brain being a composer of realities.

Indeed I’ll go on to say that there is something outside of us to wit such visions and poetry etc react. The world is the composer, the brain a player in the orchestra.
Or to put it another way, the brain develops and extend according to what’s out there!

Something like this…

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=178019
:)

_
Artist, designer, druid.

the truth is naked,
once it is written it is lost.
genius is the result of the entire product of man.
righteousness itself is divisive.
User avatar
Amorphos
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4435
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:49 pm
Location: infinity

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Jayson » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:41 pm

Perhaps with the extra sensitivity of the modern brain, we equally ‘needed’ some manner of basis for thinking like that, and that’s where religion comes into it. I think humans generally have this perception which requires a manner of fulfilment, it drives us on all manner of quests for truth and meaning in our lives.

I tend to see it as this:
Giraffes don't need the long necks to reach the tree leaves.
Their long necks ended up being a mutation which conveniently allowed for reaching the tree leaves.
Or:
Humans don't need ground for walking.
Humans don't have legs that need fulfillment of walking.
But because we have legs as we do, we can walk on the ground.

We don't have a perception which requires a manner of fulfillment.
We have a brain which articulates an acumen in a multidimensional (not meaning physics; dimension as in form) range of sense, assessment, and response to a great caliber in inherent problem solving and long view causal sequencing with an interest towards utilitarian value beyond other great apes.

I wouldn't say that truth seeking is a requirement.
More so a consequence.
>jaysonthestumps.blogspot.com
>Hebrew, Greek, and more similar resources on ILP

Spiritual: a set of neurological processes dealing with value placement, empathy, and sympathy through the associative truncation of relative identity, and which has reached a value set capable of being described as reverent to the individual, and from which existential experience and reflection is capable explicitly.
User avatar
Jayson
Alaskan Gypsy
 
Posts: 8318
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:53 am
Location: Wasilla, Alaska

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Amorphos » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:58 pm

I wouldn't say that truth seeking is a requirement.
More so a consequence.


Hmm maybe, but I don’t think we got bigger brains because we simply grew them anyways for no reason [genetic mutation or whathaveyou], we got them because the former brain detected a need which was later fulfilled. The giraffe did require longer necks due to competition on the lower leaves, I expect that many animals stretched to reach the lush green leaves, then as the giraffe gained the advantage other animals have greater access to the lower leaves ~ as the giraffe was now eating the higher ones.

Creatures are extremely sensitive machines! We cannot ignore that we live in an informational universe, and that creatures will desire ever more access to that as they develop. Knowing more gains the advantage in many cases I’d think.
Artist, designer, druid.

the truth is naked,
once it is written it is lost.
genius is the result of the entire product of man.
righteousness itself is divisive.
User avatar
Amorphos
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4435
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:49 pm
Location: infinity

Re: The divine anxiety

Postby Calrid » Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:19 pm

Tork wrote:Perfect.

Notice how I never said anything of an opposite. (Besides asking if.)*

You've explained the positive and negative effect of light waves on itself.

(Btw, did you actually read this anti-light wiki article? Kind of science fictional. Though I am a fan of zombies)


I did I LMAO. Uncyclopaedia is cool, shame the comedians don't get paid for there services to disinformation. :lol:
“I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.”

Oscar Wilde - probably.
User avatar
Calrid
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:54 am

Next

Return to Religion and Spirituality



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users