Definition of God?

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Definition of God?

Postby turtle » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:07 am

how is it possible to define god?

what if i were to say the word god is beyond definition...
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby Flannel Jesus » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:27 am

how is it possible to define banana?

what if i were to say the word banana is beyond definition...
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby James S Saint » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:39 am

Flannel Jesus wrote:how is it possible to define banana?

what if i were to say the word banana is beyond definition...

8) :wink:
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby fuse » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:40 am

All meaning is "beyond definition," but that doesn't make definitions useless or of no value. God, like any other word, is used to signify meaning and the word itself (which you might think of as a sign) can certainly be defined in various ways. It is possible to define God just as it is possible to define spirit, love, trust, confidence, etc. These words are not the things in themselves they signify, they are just our way of trying to share and express meaning.
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby James S Saint » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:50 am

It begins becoming possible by first understanding what the word means in the first place.
THEN trying to explain it in an unambiguous and comprehensive manner.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 14763
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby fuse » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:26 am

There is probably no such thing as a "completely unambiguous" explanation; there is only the sufficiently unambiguous.

What a word means can't be expressed in an analytic fashion but by using other words. That is insufficient for replicating the full dimension of meaning(s) that we personally experience.
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby felix dakat » Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:02 am

Yeah but a completely ambiguous word is meaningless. So if God is completely indefinable, then the word means nothing. But some people affirm god in a non-specific way. They never say what they mean by God. Because of the traditional and psychological connotations of the word God can produce a reverent mood. Politicians use the word God in this sense to produce the feeling in their listeners that they are serious and morally trustworthy.
God represents the ultimate mystery of being. It is beyond comprehension. Yet we participate in it by existing. Faith is the conscious acknowledgement of this mystery. Believers and skeptics get lost in the details. We suffer from the error of misplaced concreteness, mistaking dogma for the ineffable reality it represents.
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby fuse » Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:34 am

Yeah but a completely ambiguous word is meaningless. So if God is completely indefinable..

I can't make any sense of this -- not to say it is either meaningless or completely ambiguous, but -- what would a completely ambiguous word be like and why is it completely ambiguous? Completely indefinable? Same thing. I think that's bologna. All words forge meaning. That is why they are used. It's impossible for them to be meaningless.

But some people affirm god in a non-specific way. They never say what they mean by God. Because of the traditional and psychological connotations of the word God can produce a reverent mood. Politicians use the word God in this sense to produce the feeling in their listeners that they are serious and morally trustworthy.

The refusal to define or specify God so as not to emphasize such an analysis does not entail that God is a meaningless or indefinable word. ?



EDIT: My connection to ILP is intermittently failing. I've been experimenting and I'm not having any problems with other sites. Is there something wrong with the site right now? About every other refresh I get an error and I won't get a successful refresh for about 1-2 minutes sometimes.
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby ZenKitty » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:15 am

I want someone to define pain. Oh wait, you can't do it without using a word that is synonymous for it, or blue, or consciousness. In fact, the whole point is that it's what is called "simple" that you can't define it, really. You can only define complex things. But Al-Kindi has an interesting take on this as well. :shock:
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby James S Saint » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:00 pm

fuse wrote:
Yeah but a completely ambiguous word is meaningless. So if God is completely indefinable..

I can't make any sense of this -- not to say it is either meaningless or completely ambiguous, but -- what would a completely ambiguous word be like and why is it completely ambiguous? Completely indefinable? Same thing. I think that's bologna. All words forge meaning. That is why they are used. It's impossible for them to be meaningless.

I suspect you are too immersed in the trees to see the ocean.

"Ambiguous" refers to a word, phrase, or sentence that could have had a multiplicity of intended meanings, not being able to discern which was intended at the time.

Metaphor is a common source for ambiguity.
Did he mix a metaphor intentionally? Was their relevant meaning in saying, "ocean" rather than, "can't see the forest for the trees"?

An ambiguous word definition;
"Affectology" == Current systems.
Does that mean "contemporary systems in use"? Or systems involving electrical current? Or current as a generic flow of any kind?
And what kind of systems? Government? Physical? Emotional? Mental?

"God" == The Creator.
Does that mean the original creator of the universe? Or any creator of a world, such as a social engineering group?
Perhaps it means any creator of anything..?
And creator to what degree or extent?
Is it referring to creating out of nothingness? Or creating an order from a chaotic state? Or perhaps just creating one thing from another?

"Total ambiguity" refers to so many possible meanings that almost anything could have been meant and thus no meaning is discernible. Thus the word, or its use, was "meaningless" = "undefined". The "refusal to define" can render a word meaningless. But that says nothing of the intended meaning or the existence of the entity or concept involved.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 14763
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby fuse » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:47 am

James,

I would say you are missing my point.

James S. wrote:"Ambiguous" refers to a word, phrase, or sentence that could have had a multiplicity of intended meanings, not being able to discern which was intended at the time.

Yes, thanks, but we have been talking about whether the word God can be defined by the individual himself. We are not talking about whether God can be an ambiguous word. Yes, of course, God can be used ambiguously, but that doesn't entail that the word itself is inherently ambiguous, i.e. (or) indefinable.
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby fuse » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:56 am

Basically, where the confusion begins is with Felix's statement: Yeah but a completely ambiguous word is meaningless.

This needs to be clarified. When we find that the ambiguity of a statement rests on a particular word, is it accurate to say then that the particular word is meaningless? No. That a word was not used in a sufficiently clear manner does not make the word itself meaningless. And how anybody reasons that a word is indefinable is...beyond me. It seems impossible according to what I know about language. Hence my saying to Felix "I can't make any sense of this."
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby James S Saint » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:54 am

fuse wrote:James,
I would say you are missing my point.
James S. wrote:"Ambiguous" refers to a word, phrase, or sentence that could have had a multiplicity of intended meanings, not being able to discern which was intended at the time.

Yes, thanks, but we have been talking about whether the word God can be defined by the individual himself. We are not talking about whether God can be an ambiguous word. Yes, of course, God can be used ambiguously, but that doesn't entail that the word itself is inherently ambiguous, i.e. (or) indefinable.

Well yes, I didn't look back to see who was confused about which issue... apologies.
But at least now he knows why what you just said is correct. :wink:
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 14763
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Definition of God?

Postby James S Saint » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:00 am

fuse wrote:And how anybody reasons that a word is indefinable is...beyond me. It seems impossible according to what I know about language. Hence my saying to Felix "I can't make any sense of this."

I'm pretty sure that comes from the recent "confusing the map with the terrain" syndrome.
Very many people have fallen into the mind trap (especially the younger crowd) of accepting the word itself as the object.
That is where we are getting all of the,
"so if I define the word differently, then your logic using it doesn't work. So obviously logic doesn't always work."

The WORD is NOT the CONCEPT!!

Not that shouting it gets them to hear it any better. :-?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 14763
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Definition of God?

Postby Kriswest » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:33 pm

turtle wrote:how is it possible to define god?

what if i were to say the word god is beyond definition...

Leave it to a bunch of analysts to over reach, over think and create a muddy pond where there is no need.
defining God is up to you. it is up to me it is up to each person. Your definition will not be mine. To some the perfect bananna is green, others yellow, still others prefer the fruit to be brown before peeling it and consuming it. Your definition is personal as is mine as is all the others here. Would you have someone tell you how to feel? Would you prefer to be that controled?
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I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby turtle » Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:44 pm

Kriswest wrote:
turtle wrote:how is it possible to define god?

what if i were to say the word god is beyond definition...

Leave it to a bunch of analysts to over reach, over think and create a muddy pond where there is no need.
defining God is up to you. it is up to me it is up to each person. Your definition will not be mine. To some the perfect bananna is green, others yellow, still others prefer the fruit to be brown before peeling it and consuming it. Your definition is personal as is mine as is all the others here. Would you have someone tell you how to feel? Would you prefer to be that controled?


i agree kriswest...now what do you think about going after the real god....that would be what we discover
in nature with very hard evidence...we need to move on....we need to shed the false gods because they are causing more problems than helping..
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby omar » Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:21 pm

turtle wrote:how is it possible to define god?

what if i were to say the word god is beyond definition...


Well, what if you considered the source of the definition: humans. And while our creativity sets us apart, our needs and vulnerabilities unite us. Definitions about God therefore vary in many great details but something remains that connect them. It is an appeal to a higher perspective and obtaining it gives man a measure of control.
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby turtle » Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:29 pm

omar wrote:
turtle wrote:how is it possible to define god?

what if i were to say the word god is beyond definition...


Well, what if you considered the source of the definition: humans. And while our creativity sets us apart, our needs and vulnerabilities unite us. Definitions about God therefore vary in many great details but something remains that connect them. It is an appeal to a higher perspective and obtaining it gives man a measure of control.


i believe in the real god.... and if anything i have lost all control...
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby Kriswest » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:02 pm

turtle wrote:
Kriswest wrote:
turtle wrote:how is it possible to define god?

what if i were to say the word god is beyond definition...

Leave it to a bunch of analysts to over reach, over think and create a muddy pond where there is no need.
defining God is up to you. it is up to me it is up to each person. Your definition will not be mine. To some the perfect bananna is green, others yellow, still others prefer the fruit to be brown before peeling it and consuming it. Your definition is personal as is mine as is all the others here. Would you have someone tell you how to feel? Would you prefer to be that controled?


i agree kriswest...now what do you think about going after the real god....that would be what we discover
in nature with very hard evidence...we need to move on....we need to shed the false gods because they are causing more problems than helping..

False gods again? Turtle my friend would you put a person to death for believing in their God? Its their God, not yours not mine. Just because it is not ours does not mean its false. Left handed people were killed , punished or forced to use their right hand only. Just because right handed people out numbered them and the common belief was , lefthanded folks were evil. what you suggest is on the same level. You wish to remove freedom.
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I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby turtle » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:35 pm

kriswest----no no no no violence...no getting rid of people...but lets not accept santa as a real person but as a pleasant diverson at xmas..
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby Moreno » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:34 am

turtle wrote:how is it possible to define god?

what if i were to say the word god is beyond definition...
Everything, but it has agency and consciousness.
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby felix dakat » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:39 am

A definition of God ought to include the notion of maximal greatness. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/concepts-god/ Otherwise, one would seem to be holding to be "God" that which is not.
God represents the ultimate mystery of being. It is beyond comprehension. Yet we participate in it by existing. Faith is the conscious acknowledgement of this mystery. Believers and skeptics get lost in the details. We suffer from the error of misplaced concreteness, mistaking dogma for the ineffable reality it represents.
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby Kriswest » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:20 am

turtle wrote:kriswest----no no no no violence...no getting rid of people...but lets not accept santa as a real person but as a pleasant diverson at xmas..

Are you aware of what just happened over in Afghanastan? The Koran was burned by US soldiers , a complete act of stupidity. Now violence. You cannot destroy a religion without war of somesort. Beliefs are not something we give up lightly. Gods are a part of the person's soul, a part of what makes them unique, what makes them get up in the morning. To try and remove it is viewed as an assault. You may as well stab or beat the person or e ven kill them outright. Gods are a part of a person just as family is. Preach peace not removal of gods, preach acceptance not falseness. accept that gods are real to the people in question and then work for peace.
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I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby turtle » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:53 pm

Kriswest wrote:
turtle wrote:kriswest----no no no no violence...no getting rid of people...but lets not accept santa as a real person but as a pleasant diverson at xmas..

Are you aware of what just happened over in Afghanastan? The Koran was burned by US soldiers , a complete act of stupidity. Now violence. You cannot destroy a religion without war of somesort. Beliefs are not something we give up lightly. Gods are a part of the person's soul, a part of what makes them unique, what makes them get up in the morning. To try and remove it is viewed as an assault. You may as well stab or beat the person or e ven kill them outright. Gods are a part of a person just as family is. Preach peace not removal of gods, preach acceptance not falseness. accept that gods are real to the people in question and then work for peace.

actually i agree with you except for one thing...
we should not preach...we should be peaceful and accepting....do you show acceptance of my belief in a real god...
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Re: Definition of God?

Postby Kriswest » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:03 pm

How can you teach without preach? One must speak to teach others even if its just a tiny kernel of an idea. Yes I accept your belief in a real God, I accept it as your belief and I respect it. That is your belief in a very sacred thing. But should it be mine? should you throw my beliefs in the trash and insult mine? For you that God exists for me maybe not. I actually am more closely bound to the idea of multiple entities having vested interests in this and other worlds. That makes the most logical sense to me.
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I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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