Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Arminius » Sun May 25, 2014 1:25 am

Moreno wrote:I don't think Islam will in the long term withstand 'Western' Culture, just as Christianity and every other religion is falling to modernism, physicalism, capitalism, consumerism, 'I am my surface'-ism, modularism, and then transhumanism which is the fart at the end of this indigestion. Not that I am rooting for Islam. In general we are supposed to choose between bullies with poor and damaging Weltanschauungen.

And what about the religion? Do we need a religion, and, if yes, which one in order to prevent that choice? Can heathendom help us thereby? Or is just the reverse true?

My two questions again:

How do a heathen live his life?

How has he to live his life?
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Moreno » Sun May 25, 2014 1:33 am

Arminius wrote:
Moreno wrote:I don't think Islam will in the long term withstand 'Western' Culture, just as Christianity and every other religion is falling to modernism, physicalism, capitalism, consumerism, 'I am my surface'-ism, modularism, and then transhumanism which is the fart at the end of this indigestion. Not that I am rooting for Islam. In general we are supposed to choose between bullies with poor and damaging Weltanschauungen.

And what about the religion? Do we need a religion, and, if yes, which one in order to prevent that choice? Can heathendom help us thereby? Or is just the reverse true?

My two questions again:

How do a heathen live his life?

How has he to live his life?
Heathen is too broad a term. It more or less means, not Jewish/Christian and I suppose Islamic. So heathens lead all sorts of kinds of lives. I am not sure he has to live it in any particular way. Those heathens who might resist the current winning worldview also do this in a variety of ways.
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Arminius » Sun May 25, 2014 2:03 am

Moreno wrote:Heathen is too broad a term. It more or less means, not Jewish/Christian and I suppose Islamic.

That's correct.

Moreno wrote:So heathens lead all sorts of kinds of lives.

But not a monotheistic one, right?

Moreno wrote:I am not sure he has to live it in any particular way. Those heathens who might resist the current winning worldview also do this in a variety of ways.

Yes, but how exactly?
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Moreno » Sun May 25, 2014 2:37 am

Arminius wrote:But not a monotheistic one, right?
If only technically.


Yes, but how exactly?
How should a heathen live to bring freedom back? (is that the question?)
It depends on what lines of causation one believes in. Which varies from heathen to heathen.

What's your answer?

And if it's earlier in the thread, just let me know where.
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Arminius » Sun May 25, 2014 9:46 am

Moreno wrote:
Arminius wrote:But not a monotheistic one, right?
If only technically.

Instaed of "monotheistic" one could also and perhaps more correctly say "henotheistic".

Moreno wrote:
Yes, but how exactly?

How should a heathen live to bring freedom back? (is that the question?)

The question is more how they really live their life religiously!

Moreno wrote:It depends on what lines of causation one believes in. Which varies from heathen to heathen.

What's your answer?

Therefore my questions. I wonder why those members of this forum, who call themselves "heathens", don't answer my questions. I asked them repeatedly (for example here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here), especially Maia who calls herself "heathen". .... No answer!

You are no heathen, aren't you?
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Arminius » Fri May 30, 2014 12:27 am

Maia wrote:As a Pagan I find the following campaign quite interesting, though I don't necessarily agree with every single point. The basic proposal is that the state should be run by an order of priestesses. There's a democratic element too, but subject to veto by the priestesses, and a form of conscription for everyone under 25.

http://sovereignmercia.webs.com/

=> #

A serious question: Is that really pagan or just femninistic, thus: politically correct?

Maia wrote:In Hindu and Buddhist doctrine, reincarnation is a curse, dooming us to play out endless lives of misery, subject to the law of karma.

Pagans see reincarnation in a very different light. The earth is our paradise, to make of what we will. Coming back again and again, sharing our lives with our loved ones each time round, in different relationships, is a great joy.

That's the view among many Pagans, anyway. Others have different views.

=> #

Make what we will?
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Dan~ » Fri May 30, 2014 1:39 am

I think Christianity is probably a lot less burtal than ancient Greek religion for example. Not all ancient religions were nice. Some of it was worse.
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Arminius » Fri May 30, 2014 1:49 am

Dan~ wrote:I think Christianity is probably a lot less burtal than ancient Greek religion for example. Not all ancient religions were nice. Some of it was worse.

Yes, of course, and therefore my questions (for example here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here), but they dare not to answer. Are they cowards? If yes, then they are no heathens, right?
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Dan~ » Fri May 30, 2014 3:10 am

but they dare not to answer

Maybe you need to change how you ask your questions.
Some people, for example, find it easier to understand a wordy drawn out paragraph, while other people only need one sentence.

Some people think that life is like a lock and you only need one right key to fix it.
So they would say christianity is the key, or they'd even say paganism is the key.
I think the facts are that life needs a lot of keys and necessarily cannot be perfect.
That is a big issue for a christian, because his or her god is supposed to be perfect.
On the other hand, in polytheism the gods are not perfect, I think, with what little I've read.
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Arminius » Fri May 30, 2014 3:04 pm

In polytheism the gods are not perfect because they have to be like humans, and humans are not perfect. In polytheism the gods have just the purpose to be the projection surface of the humans, and therefor they must be imperfect.

It is a kind of arrogance or even megalomania to say that merely the non-monotheistic religions are heathen religions. Nonetheless: Heathen religions can also be arrogant or megalomaniac and say that all non-heathen religions are inferior.

B.t.w.: "Monotheism" should be called "henotheism" because the other god is known and thereby accepted by each of the "monotheisms".
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Arminius » Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:30 pm

Is it acceptable if we say that polytheism is part of paganism? If so - and I say: yes, polytheism is part of paganism -, then we can also say that monotheism is less tolerant than polytheism. Thereby the probability for the following declaration rises: yes, the heathendom will bring freedom back to us (=> #)). But this heathendom would have to be very powerful, because the montheistic religions do not want the heathendom to be powerful.
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Moreno » Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:08 am

Arminius wrote:You are no heathen, aren't you?
As a heathen, I think it would be odd for me to tell heathens how they should live, which a statement of how a heathen should live is a basic form of. Apart from the category issue - 'as a non-dualist here's how people who are non-dualists should live' (or pick some other category beginning with non- and encompassing many different types of groups - it's more of an Abrahamic way of thinking, at least from this heathen's perspective. There are some heathen, clearly, who think they know how everyone should live.
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Arminius » Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:55 pm

Moreno wrote:As a heathen, I think it would be odd for me to tell heathens how they should live, which a statement of how a heathen should live is a basic form of. Apart from the category issue - 'as a non-dualist here's how people who are non-dualists should live' (or pick some other category beginning with non- and encompassing many different types of groups - it's more of an Abrahamic way of thinking, at least from this heathen's perspective. There are some heathen, clearly, who think they know how everyone should live.

"Abrahamic way of thinking"? Abrahamic is monotheistic, not heanthenish!

And "'as a non-dualist'"? What do you exactly mean?
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Moreno » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:21 am

Arminius wrote:"Abrahamic way of thinking"? Abrahamic is monotheistic, not heanthenish!
Right, that was my point. To ask how a heathen should live seems to have the kind of universal, rigid morality I associate more with Abrahamic religions. IOW the question seems an odd one to put to heathens.

And "'as a non-dualist'"? What do you exactly mean?
I meant that heathen is a category based on a negative. People who are not people of the Book or whatever. So I picked another group defined in the negative: could be monists, could be people who believe in the four elements (or five like some Chinese do), could be other people whose beliefs are categorized as not dualistic. To ask one of these people to give an answer to how members this odd batch of
belief systems SHOULD act or think, is weird, I think.

To go back to the OP and Arminius. I would not want to say that heathen today should take up arms against what makes for modern Rome. I would not want to say they should not. Certainly issues of freedom play into my not wanting to state what heathens should do. And then also the category issue I have raised, hopefully more clearly this time.

Arminius strategy was a holding action, ultimately. The civilized barbarians have taken over all Germanic lands. In fact Germanic peoples are prime members of the civilized barbarians these days.

But just because it ultimately failed, that doesn't mean I want to use that to develop a should for heathens based on that failure.
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Arminius » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:42 am

Moreno wrote:To ask how a heathen should live seems to have the kind of universal, rigid morality I associate more with Abrahamic religions.

So you unite heathendom with montheism without any problem? What you are then? A heathenish Monotheist or a monotheistic heathen?
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Moreno » Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:42 am

Arminius wrote:
Moreno wrote:To ask how a heathen should live seems to have the kind of universal, rigid morality I associate more with Abrahamic religions.

So you unite heathendom with montheism without any problem? What you are then? A heathenish Monotheist or a monotheistic heathen?


Must be poor wording on my part because that is not what I am saying.

I am saying that the act of stating what heathens should do is odd. Why? Stating what all members of my group X should do is rather Abrahamic to me. Like I should tell all pagans how to live their lives and how they should struggle for freedom. LIke I can make that kind of rule. And a rule about what they should do. Which is even more resrictive than a rule about what they should not do, at least in many cases, since it compells towards a specific life.

I am not saying that being a heathen is like being a monotheist/Abrahamist.

It is that act of laying out what should be done that seems more Abrahamic than heathen to me. My objection works on the assumption that these groups are different.
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Arminius » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:38 am

Moreno wrote:I am saying that the act of stating what heathens should do is odd. Why? Stating what all members of my group X should do is rather Abrahamic to me. Like I should tell all pagans how to live their lives and how they should struggle for freedom. LIke I can make that kind of rule. And a rule about what they should do. Which is even more resrictive than a rule about what they should not do, at least in many cases, since it compells towards a specific life.

I am not saying that being a heathen is like being a monotheist/Abrahamist.

Ah, okay. So you don't unite them. That's okay. Else you would try to unite fire and water.

Moreno wrote:It is that act of laying out what should be done that seems more Abrahamic than heathen to me. My objection works on the assumption that these groups are different.

Oh, yes, they are! They are very much different, more different than all others from each other!

Why did so many heathens became monotheists? What was the success of the missionaries?

    1.) Chosen people in the case of the Judaism?
    2.) Salvation (especially by Jesus) in the case of the Christendom / Christianity?
    3.) Capture / conquest and power by war in the case of the Islam / Mussulmans / Mussulmen?

Will also many monotheists become heathens? And without missionaries?

    1.) ?
    2.) ?
    3.) ?
Last edited by Arminius on Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Orbie » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:18 am

its the old inverted pyramid my friends. From the worship of the one, the one and only, descend to the worship of the many. The many each unto it's own worship, even if it's the self. And finally that vanishes into the nihilistic none. No one seems to understand, no one tries to appear as if they don't, but the political miasma draws them away from such an intangible, dangerous mystery, even while knowingly suspecting it. Theosophy,the science of mind , and the gnostic Jesus would prevent the ultimate descent into this kind of absolute freedom.
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Moreno » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:32 am

Arminius wrote:Why did so many heathens became monotheists? What was the success of the missionaries?
In the americas the devastation of the series of plagues brought over by Europeans no doubt gutted the cultures, then murder, colonialization, systematic rape, forced suppression of cultures, and so on. This also happened in Europe, though not with the unintentional germ warfare as a softening up bombardment. Once colonialism is in place, and this was true in Europe and the Americas and everywhere else the babies of Rome have gone, then there are punishments for not being a monotheist and rewards for being one. The former including the death of you and your family. Often children were schooled separately from their parents and culture.

Certain forms of paganism had some kind of power worship, winners have spiritual power or some related meme. So if you lose, it undermines the religion. (of course the citizens in monotheist cultures and Romanmachine armies have lost completely in advance, but that is another story)

Will also many monotheists become heathens?
I noticed a trend in this direct in the 90s-00s. NOt that most of these were believers in monotheism who shifted, but they came out of the ranks of once monotheistic genetic lines.
And without missionaries?
Missionaries today tend to market their ideas. You could look at the traditional missionary as marketing ideas, but I think you probably get my drift.
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby phoneutria » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:31 am

Arminius wrote:And what about the religion? Do we need a religion, and, if yes, which one in order to prevent that choice? Can heathendom help us thereby? Or is just the reverse true?

My two questions again:

How do a heathen live his life?

How has he to live his life?


By loving the words of their fathers.

Polonius wrote:Look thou character. Give thy thoughts no tongue, 
Nor any unproportion'd thought his act. 
Be thou familiar, but by no means vulgar: 
Those friends thou hast, and their adoption tried, 
Grapple them unto thy soul with hoops of steel; 
But do not dull thy palm with entertainment 
Of each new-hatch'd, unfledg'd comrade. Beware 
Of entrance to a quarrel; but being in, 
Bear't that th' opposed may beware of thee. 
Give every man thine ear, but few thy voice; 
Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment. 
Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy, 
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy; 
For the apparel oft proclaims the man, 
And they in France of the best rank and station 
Are most select and generous, chief in that. 
Neither a borrower nor a lender be; 
For loan oft loses both itself and friend, 
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry. 
This above all- to thine own self be true, 
And it must follow, as the night the day, 
Thou canst not then be false to any man. 
Farewell. My blessing season this in thee!
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Arminius » Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:25 pm

Moreno wrote:Missionaries today tend to market their ideas.

That is probably the reason why they can not be as successful as the former missionaries were. Maybe that is also the reason why some heathens of this forum (I don't mean you and some others) don't answer my questions, because they are no real but marketed, merchandised heathens. Nonetheless I appreciate their reservation, but with a mere reservation they can not so easiliy become more as they would, if they were less reserved, less distant. But probably there is no other way, if an honest religion is exercised. However: a marketed heathen seems to be similar to - for example -a marketed hippie, or a marketed punk, or a marketed rapper.

My questions can be found here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here.

Moreno, you are the only one who has answered one of those questions, namely this one: You are no heathen, aren't you? Your indirect answer "As a heathen, I think ...". Thank you.
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Moreno » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:18 pm

Arminius wrote:
Moreno wrote:Missionaries today tend to market their ideas.

That is probably the reason why they can not be as successful as the former missionaries were. Maybe that is also the reason why some heathens of this forum (I don't mean you and some others) don't answer my questions, because they are no real but marketed, merchandised heathens. Nonetheless I appreciate their reservation, but with a mere reservation they can not so easiliy become more as they would, if they were less reserved, less distant. But probably there is no other way, if an honest religion is exercised. However: a marketed heathen seems to be similar to - for example -a marketed hippie, or a marketed punk, or a marketed rapper.

I think any modern human coming out of the mish mosh of paradigms they are bathed in by family school friends and media is going to have to be rather dedicated to get into any ideology or world view. That said, I see no problem with such a person finding a book about some specific form of paganism and, say, realizing, this is it. I knew it. That is what i feel. And using this experience and book to connect to others, develop practices, values and deepen the outlook. Just because the author went through a publishing house and the book was marketed does not mean it is more tainted than coming from some priest who is sent out by the marketers in the Vatican. The modern convert, however, I think, has a different challenge than the earlier ones since he or she must actually figure out what ideas are being left behind. At least a tribal member in AFrica or a Celt or a native american could probably lay out fairly quickly the general outline of his or her beliefs AND actually be correct. Modern people shift through 10 paradigms in half an hour. What rituals will they have to give up? What beliefs will no longer be considered true? What is their sense of self? All this is so muddled and cluttered and contradictory. I'll bet it creeps in all the time unnoticed, and even the missionaries have a hard time picking it up.

Moreno, you are the only one who has answered one of those questions, namely [url=http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?
My version of heathenism is put off by the current physicalist paradigm where everything, including life forms, including humans, are seen as modular chemical machines that we have the intelligence and wisdom to manipulate. My heathenism does not experience a dead universe with life and sentience as radical exceptions, especially the latter. I find the hypocritical application of scientific methodology to all matters (except when it suits 'them') incredibly damaging and pretty stupid, actually. Many people are pretty limited, but this is no reason for me to assume that I cannot understand things via other processes. For me it first important to extricate the mind and emotions from the grip of limiting hateful memes. Tied to this is noticing what is actually happening out there and in me.

That's a start, I think at answering your questions, not in terms of should, but more what I connect with my heathenism.
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Arminius » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:42 pm

Do you know any native american?
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Moreno » Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:41 am

Arminius wrote:Do you know any native american?
I have known some, but not in a Close friend sort of way.
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Re: Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?

Postby Moreno » Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:51 am

Will heathendom (pagandom) bring freedom back to us?
The set of things not heathen, I Think, lacks the solution. So if freedom comes back it will be via non-Abrahamic routes. Or freedom increases might be a better way to put it. There is some swingroom or there would be no hope. (I suppose I am also a heathen in relation to monoepistemologies like scientism.)
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