Chicken or egg? What came first?

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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:26 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:It was free from pain and after I die I will return to
that state once again.

You cannot return to any state if "you" are dead.
No one in the entire history of human existence has ever complained about being dead. They only complain about being alive. So there is nothing to be afraid of in being dead forever. Apart from anything else there is not much that one can do about it and so the sooner one accepts that the better

They do not complain about being dead, because there is no "them" in the body anymore. You cannot be "dead", there is no you to experience non experience. The reason people fear death is because they don't know what comes after, for all we know the next life could be worse or it could be better.

You cannot assume that there is no next life because you look at a body and see that it is dead...just as you cannot assume there is no sentience in someone because you look at their brain and cannot see their thoughts. How did you know the consciousness stream did not continue elsewhere? You already know your consciousness stream generated at your birth for no apparent cause or reason. You are using cheap empirical methods to debate consciousness and sentience discussions which is rather laughable.
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby surreptitious57 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:20 am

Trixie Z wrote:
You cannot assume that there is no next life because you look at a body and see that it is dead

That is a coping mechanism to help me get to the end of this life so up until then it is true
If after that it turns out I have been entirely wrong I will accept this with zero reservation
Though right now I have no desire to start thinking about something I have no control over
I will wait and see and take it a day at a time while patiently waiting for death to take me
Yes I am going to die but that is as far as my knowledge extends right now so I accept that
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby phyllo » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:34 am

That is a coping mechanism to help me get to the end of this life so up until then it is true
If after that it turns out I have been entirely wrong I will accept this with zero reservation
Though right now I have no desire to start thinking about something I have no control over
I will wait and see and take it a day at a time while patiently waiting for death to take me
Yes I am going to die but that is as far as my knowledge extends right now so I accept that
Why are there so many old people, just waiting to die, at ILP? :-?
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:36 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Trixie Z wrote:
You cannot assume that there is no next life because you look at a body and see that it is dead

That is a coping mechanism to help me get to the end of this life so up until then it is true
If after that it turns out I have been entirely wrong I will accept this with zero reservation
Though right now I have no desire to start thinking about something I have no control over
I will wait and see and take it a day at a time while patiently waiting for death to take me
Yes I am going to die but that is as far as my knowledge extends right now so I accept that


We have control over our life, or at least we have the illusion of control. When I tell you to not eat paper, you have the choice to not eat paper. The universe is helping you, through me, to programmed in the right way, to make the right choices. So the universe is telling us (through me, I am it's Body and Holy Vessel) that you should make the right choice, because choices may affect the outcome of the afterlife. And the right choice is, to insist that Science do more serious research on consciousness and the afterlife. And in order for science to do that, the first step is to upgrade everyone's brains.
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby surreptitious57 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:48 am

That is all very well but what I am specifically interested in is getting to the end of this life
You want to upgrade your brain then go ahead and do it but that has nothing to do with me
I am just waiting to die and passing the time till death finally decides to come and take me
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby Kriswest » Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:29 am

Well then go to a cold dark place and wait, why bother with activity?
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:43 am

surreptitious57 wrote:That is all very well but what I am specifically interested in is getting to the end of this life
You want to upgrade your brain then go ahead and do it but that has nothing to do with me
I am just waiting to die and passing the time till death finally decides to come and take me


>insert *we welcome our alien overlords *we welcome the smooze*summoner devoured> trope
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby surreptitious57 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:18 am

Kriswest wrote:
Well then go to a cold dark place and wait why bother with activity

I need to keep myself occupied as doing nothing is out of the question
I do not fancy just staring at empty walls for the next thirty odd years
Because if that is all I shall be doing then I might as well die right now
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:17 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:That is all very well but what I am specifically interested in is getting to the end of this life
You want to upgrade your brain then go ahead and do it but that has nothing to do with me
I am just waiting to die and passing the time till death finally decides to come and take me


Didn't you know that death is a contrarian? Death may just decide to leave you alone until that moment when you see something worthwhile about living. Then Death will take you. And take care not to try to fool Death. It sees right through you.

How to resolve the conundrum?
Are you at least enjoying passing the time on some level?
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby Leyla » Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:31 am

surreptitious57 wrote:That is all very well but what I am specifically interested in is getting to the end of this life
You want to upgrade your brain then go ahead and do it but that has nothing to do with me
I am just waiting to die and passing the time till death finally decides to come and take me

This sounds to me as if you are very sorry for yourself for some reason. But I don't believe you. I think that every creature clinges to life (and if you're getting upset now, you prove me right :wink: ).
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby Ichthus » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:29 am

To the OP:

If the human spirit doesn't mirror God's eternal essence, then Sartre was right - we make our own; we are like the river you never step into twice, a conscious one that chooses which way it goes. However...if the human spirit does mirror God's essence, we are not dealing with a changing river, but an infinite well. We can choose to be filled from that well, or be dry wells ourselves. And we will become exactly what we choose.
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:01 pm

phyllo wrote:
That is a coping mechanism to help me get to the end of this life so up until then it is true
If after that it turns out I have been entirely wrong I will accept this with zero reservation
Though right now I have no desire to start thinking about something I have no control over
I will wait and see and take it a day at a time while patiently waiting for death to take me
Yes I am going to die but that is as far as my knowledge extends right now so I accept that
Why are there so many old people, just waiting to die, at ILP? :-?

I'm not waiting to die. I have poems yet to write.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:01 pm

duplicate
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby phyllo » Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:42 pm

I'm not waiting to die. I have poems yet to write.
That's good. :D
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby Kriswest » Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:16 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Kriswest wrote:
Well then go to a cold dark place and wait why bother with activity

I need to keep myself occupied as doing nothing is out of the question
I do not fancy just staring at empty walls for the next thirty odd years
Because if that is all I shall be doing then I might as well die right now

So life is worth living and doing, it does have meaning and a point for you.
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby Lev Muishkin » Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:05 am

Ichthus wrote:To the OP:

If the human spirit doesn't mirror God's eternal essence, then Sartre was right - we make our own; we are like the river you never step into twice, a conscious one that chooses which way it goes. However...if the human spirit does mirror God's essence, we are not dealing with a changing river, but an infinite well. We can choose to be filled from that well, or be dry wells ourselves. And we will become exactly what we choose.


Why has your fish got feet?
I think you are missing the point. Do you know what Ixthos stands for?

"Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
"The Holocaust was the fault of the Jews; The Holocaust was not genocide", Kriswest
"A Tortoise is a Turtle", Wizard
" Hitler didn't create the Nazis. In reality, the Judists did ... for a purpose of their own. Hitler was merely one they chose to head it up after they discovered the Judist betrayal in WW1, their "Judas Iscariot";James S Saint.
These just keep getting funnier.
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby Ichthus » Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:00 pm

The ichthus w/ feet is for me a symbol of theistic evolution. See biologos.org/questions My last post stands regardless.
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby Lev Muishkin » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:02 am

Ichthus wrote:The ichthus w/ feet is for me a symbol of theistic evolution. See biologos.org/questions My last post stands regardless.


Theism is a medieval myth. It contradict evolution, obviously.

"Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
"The Holocaust was the fault of the Jews; The Holocaust was not genocide", Kriswest
"A Tortoise is a Turtle", Wizard
" Hitler didn't create the Nazis. In reality, the Judists did ... for a purpose of their own. Hitler was merely one they chose to head it up after they discovered the Judist betrayal in WW1, their "Judas Iscariot";James S Saint.
These just keep getting funnier.
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:26 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:

That is all very well but what I am specifically interested in is getting to the end of this life
....I am just waiting to die and passing the time till death finally decides to come and take me


Define what you mean by "passing the time".
You must be a real pain on road trips. :mrgreen:
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby gib » Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:31 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:I am just waiting to die and passing the time till death finally decides to come and take me


Me too.
My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
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The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:43 pm

Lev,

Why has your fish got feet?


Why they are for walking on land, Lev. Didn't you kow that? You can't see it, but this fish also has a "bottomless" air tank for when he becomes the fish out of water. His feet are also for walking on the ocean floor when he gets tired of swimming. He's an awesome mutation.
We call him Mutie.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


I learn as I write!
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby surreptitious57 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:55 am

Arcturus Descending wrote:
Define what you mean by passing the time. You must be a real pain on road trips

Anything that can keep me meaningfully occupied is passing the time. I do not do road trips for I avoid human beings
as much as possible. I am as free as I can be while still being alive but death is my destination. And all life is is just a
short journey along the way before the inevitable. And if death is eternal and painless it must not be feared. Though
tell this to most human beings and they start going into denial mode. Yet no one who is dead has ever been observed
to be unhappy so there is zero reason to be afraid of it and every reason to welcome it with open arms. Indeed I now
accept it so much that I do not really worry about anything. Since I know that my life shall end one day and all of the
worrying will have been in vain. You cannot be any more free now than to live a life with as little worry as is possible
Now some here have no time for nihilists but I am more free than they are so I must be doing something right I reckon
Although I did not choose to become nihilist for instead it just became the most ideal position for me to actually be in
And it was a slow transitional process that I now fully accept and I now see the bigger picture too so it all makes sense
I cannot recommend it because even though it works for me it may not do so for anyone else. So you have to find what
works for you. I cannot tell you what that is as that is only something that you can know. And so then each to their own
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby Kriswest » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:34 am

Life is learning not passing time. Existence here is about learning life and death not passing time. Energy given and wasted does not give what is needed after. Passing time leaves you utterly ignorant for the next phase.
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby Lev Muishkin » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:40 pm

Each year adds value to life, unless you stand still.
Standing still is just death. Life is about change and learning and growing. More knowledge, more experience, more of everything.
THe paradox is health which inevitably declines. Thus when you are at your greatest you are closest to death.

"Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
"The Holocaust was the fault of the Jews; The Holocaust was not genocide", Kriswest
"A Tortoise is a Turtle", Wizard
" Hitler didn't create the Nazis. In reality, the Judists did ... for a purpose of their own. Hitler was merely one they chose to head it up after they discovered the Judist betrayal in WW1, their "Judas Iscariot";James S Saint.
These just keep getting funnier.
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Re: Chicken or egg? What came first?

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:28 pm

Lev Muishkin wrote:Each year adds value to life, unless you stand still.

Not for me it doesn't. The number of half truths on this forum are astounding.

Please do not make a meaning making response where you tell about the metaphors of "standing still".
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