Good Friday

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Good Friday

Postby Bob » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:42 pm

Good Friday, the symbol of injustice and oppression – not just from military states, but also through the denunciations of institutions which serve such powers. The questions we have to ask ourselves is not whether we are intrumentalised for oppression, but by who and against who? What are we preventing by behaving as we do? Where do we intervene and ruin, rather that build up? Where are we part of the social entropy that breaks down cultures and development?
In the end we have to ask ourselves where we think it will lead us! Where are we going in the course of a lifetime? What kind of a world will we leave behind us? Will it be goodbye or good riddance? What will our children lack, when we have gone, that we enjoyed in abundance?
There are of course enough people who are still fighting for survival, but who are they fighting against and why are they not getting help? If we are their opposition, whether financially, militarily or because we have used up their resources, then we shouldn’t be surprised if there is some kind of animosity in them. It wouldn’t be wise to try and play any morality cards in that game.

But, seriously, if the West is primarily Christian, (in the words of 4 Non Blondes) “Whats goin on?”
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Re: Good Friday

Postby Uccisore » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:47 pm

I thought Good Friday had something to do with Jesus. But I forget- every day is a good day to condemn Western Civilization!
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Re: Good Friday

Postby Bob » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:53 pm

Uccisore wrote:I thought Good Friday had something to do with Jesus. But I forget- every day is a good day to condemn Western Civilization!

Get a grasp of the big picture Ucc. and it isn't about condemnation - its about waking up ... But somehow, I remember the Priests and the Pharisees being angry at Jesus for some reason ... what was that now? Oh yes, he was critical ... "woe to those and woe to these ..." etc.

If we can get our head around the consequences of our actions, we might even solve some problems. But I forgot: For some people there is no Problem!
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Re: Good Friday

Postby Uccisore » Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:04 pm

Bob wrote:Get a grasp of the big picture Ucc.


You realize this admonition is likely to point me back towards thinking about Jesus, and not 'Bob's opinion of current events', right?

and it isn't about condemnation -


Yeah, it's not condemnation when you do it.
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Re: Good Friday

Postby Arminius » Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:31 pm

Bob wrote:Good Friday, the symbol of injustice and oppression – not just from military states, but also through the denunciations of institutions which serve such powers. The questions we have to ask ourselves is not whether we are intrumentalised for oppression ....

Instrumentalisation is almost everywhere and very similar to cynism. It is just the same old (hi)story.

Bob wrote:What are we preventing by behaving as we do? Where do we intervene and ruin, rather that build up? Where are we part of the social entropy that breaks down cultures and development? In the end we have to ask ourselves where we think it will lead us! Where are we going in the course of a lifetime? What kind of a world will we leave behind us? Will it be goodbye or good riddance? What will our children lack, when we have gone, that we enjoyed in abundance?

They will lack the enjoyment in abundance that we had, or they will lack nothing, because they will also enjoy in abundance. It depends on the future history and the question wether we have to change our behaviour or not.

Arminius wrote:Most humans want to change the world.
Only few humans want to protect the world.

It is wrong to change the world to the extent as it is done currently. It is logically false, it is ethically false, it is aesthetically false. So it is philosophically false.
=>

Protectionism is a part of the immune system of a society.
=>

Arminius wrote:It is a cyclical process. Catastrophes come again and again. We do not need to make any contribution to catastrophes. But we do. It would be better to relinquish any contribution to catatstrophes or to decisions which lead to catatstrophes, if we were more capable of relinquishing. We should stop changing the world and start protecting the world.

A better world would be a protected world, especially for the offspring. But it is very likely that the human rulers and some other humans will not stop changing the world (thus: destroying the world) and will get the worst world. So the next human-made catastrophe will come sooner as expected.

We should eliminate or at least replace the globalistic institutions, which are merely established for the changers, thus exploiters, destroyers of the world, and also eliminate or at least replace the globalistic "human rights", which are merely established for the changers, thus exploiters, destroyers of the world. We have to protect the world; we have to protect our chidren and their children and so on; we have to protect our countries; we have to protect the right of domicile (I mean it as the exact opposite of the right we now have: the right to settle wherever one wants to); we have to protect ourselves by protecting our nation, our origin, our traditions ... and so on. We need rights to protect ourselves in the sense that these rights can successfully stop protecting the rights of the globalists.
=>

Maybe protecting the world could become a new (pagan) religion without injustice and oppression, having said this, we alraedy have such a religion, at least its prestage, just look at the instrumentalisation of the themes "climate change", "global warming" etc. that lead to more power of the instrumentalisers and nothing else.
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Re: Good Friday

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:37 am

Just read this line ... seems a propos:

Something to the effect ... "Rome is burning but let's just go to the circus and watch the gladiators"
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Re: Good Friday

Postby Arminius » Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:19 am

I guess you know the story of the Roman soldier that died at Pompeii, whose bones were found at his post, because someone forgot to relieve him.

"Our duty is to hold on to the lost position, without hope, without rescue, like that Roman soldier whose bones were found in front of a door in Pompeii, who, during the eruption of Vesuvius, died at his post because they forgot to relieve him." - Oswald Spengler, "Man and Technics: A Contribution to a Philosophy of Life" (original title: "Der Mensch und die Technik - Beitrag zu einer Philosophie des Lebens", 1931, S. 89).

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Re: Good Friday

Postby Bob » Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:05 pm

Arminius wrote:I guess you know the story of the Roman soldier that died at Pompeii, whose bones were found at his post, because someone forgot to relieve him.

"Our duty is to hold on to the lost position, without hope, without rescue, like that Roman soldier whose bones were found in front of a door in Pompeii, who, during the eruption of Vesuvius, died at his post because they forgot to relieve him." - Oswald Spengler, "Man and Technics: A Contribution to a Philosophy of Life" (original title: "Der Mensch und die Technik - Beitrag zu einer Philosophie des Lebens", 1931, S. 89).


I don't see that the Roman soldier died because someone forgot to relieve him, but that there was no-one left to relieve him, because the Town he was guarding had been destroyed.

Greatness is to die at the gate whilst the whole town is burning? ... hmm, a bit pointless, like the point rider who escapes the attack on the group that came from behind and rides back to be killed as well.

Solidarity in hardship could be a little more productive.
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Re: Good Friday

Postby Arminius » Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:52 pm

Bob wrote:
Arminius wrote:I guess you know the story of the Roman soldier that died at Pompeii, whose bones were found at his post, because someone forgot to relieve him.

"Our duty is to hold on to the lost position, without hope, without rescue, like that Roman soldier whose bones were found in front of a door in Pompeii, who, during the eruption of Vesuvius, died at his post because they forgot to relieve him." - Oswald Spengler, "Man and Technics: A Contribution to a Philosophy of Life" (original title: "Der Mensch und die Technik - Beitrag zu einer Philosophie des Lebens", 1931, S. 89).


I don't see that the Roman soldier died because someone forgot to relieve him, but that there was no-one left to relieve him, because the Town he was guarding had been destroyed.

That does not change the fact that the soldier did what he had to do. For us current Westerners that behaviour is absolutely unbelievable. I guess that almost no one of us current Westerners could behave like this Roman soldier behaved.

Bob wrote:Greatness is to die at the gate whilst the whole town is burning?

I was not talking about greatness as such but about how greatness was valued in former times and how unbelievable it is for us current Westerners. It is an interesting phenomenon.

Bob wrote:... hmm, a bit pointless, like the point rider who escapes the attack on the group that came from behind and rides back to be killed as well.

Solidarity in hardship could be a little more productive.

Q.E.D.. Your interpretation of that said Roman soldier's bevaiour is a typical interpretation of a typical modern Westerner. Indeed: "Solidarity in hardship could be a little more productive". But are the current Westerners (the most individualistic people of all times) more solidary? I mean, the soldier did his "job", his duty, which was the protection of the Pompeian people, and that was how solidarity was understood by most of the people at that time.
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Re: Good Friday

Postby Bob » Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:56 pm

Arminius wrote:Q.E.D.. Your interpretation of that said Roman soldier's bevaiour is a typical interpretation of a typical modern Westerner. Indeed: "Solidarity in hardship could be a little more productive". But are the current Westerners (the most individualistic people of all times) more solidary? I mean, the soldier did his "job", his duty, which was the protection of the Pompeian people, and that was how solidarity was understood by most of the people at that time.

I think that solidarity is a little more than, regardless of what is going around us, just doing ones duty. I also believe that we have become dangerously individualistic, but at the same time, to a large degree we do think about what we are doing. If protection of the Pompeian people was the soldiers duty, he could possibly have ran through the town waking everybody up to help them escape the volcano. This is speculation of course, but no more than the statement that someone "forgot to relieve him".

Very often it just makes good reading.

Arminius wrote:Most humans want to change the world.
Only few humans want to protect the world.

I see we are in agreement here.

Arminius wrote:We should eliminate or at least replace the globalistic institutions, which are merely established for the changers, thus exploiters, destroyers of the world, and also eliminate or at least replace the globalistic "human rights", which are merely established for the changers, thus exploiters, destroyers of the world. We have to protect the world; we have to protect our chidren and their children and so on; we have to protect our countries; we have to protect the right of domicile (I mean it as the exact opposite of the right we now have: the right to settle wherever one wants to); we have to protect ourselves by protecting our nation, our origin, our traditions ... and so on. We need rights to protect ourselves in the sense that these rights can successfully stop protecting the rights of the globalists.

But haven't you got a circular argument here? People supposedly "protecting" themselves or their nation will prevent the "right of permanent residence" for other members of the human race who would come to harm if they stayed where they came from.
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Re: Good Friday

Postby Arminius » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:22 am

Bob wrote:But haven't you got a circular argument here?

No.

Bob wrote:People supposedly "protecting" themselves or their nation will prevent the "right of permanent residence" for other members of the human race who would come to harm if they stayed where they came from.

No. The opposite is true. Other humans who supposedly come to harm if they stayed where they came from would less come to harm if they stayed there where they came from, because there is the right of getting help in one's homeland as well as there is the duty of helping for those who do not need help. Help does not depend on changing the permanent residence, unless it is needed because of natural catastrophes. The current immigration politics is a huge business. Many rich people become richer and richer just because of that immigration politics, whereas those who really need help stay in their homelands anyway, because they have no money for the people smugglers. In addition, such an immigration politics leads to more and more poorness for more and more people, probably at last for 99% of all humans.
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Re: Good Friday

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:10 am

consumerism and materialism promote individualism

Individualism undermines solidarity

The absence of solidarity facilitates control by the few

A winning strategy ... short term at least

Although the seeds of unity start to germinate at the zenith of division
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Re: Good Friday

Postby James S Saint » Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:18 am

Bob wrote:Good Friday, the symbol of injustice and oppression –

What tha...?? #-o

The issue was one of "the willingness to sacrifice for the greater good", the very foundation of all societies and life (although seldom properly applied .. well, okay .. never). It isn't an issue of being oppressed. If one behaves well only when oppressed, then he will always be oppressed.


Bob wrote:The questions we have to ask ourselves is not whether we are intrumentalised for oppression, but by who and against who? What are we preventing by behaving as we do?

Since you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem. You prevent energies from being directed in the right direction by diverting them in the wrong direction (it ain't rocket science).

Bob wrote:Where do we intervene and ruin, rather that build up? Where are we part of the social entropy that breaks down cultures and development?

When we presume to act before thinking more carefully .. and thus divert energies in the wrong directions.

Bob wrote:In the end we have to ask ourselves where we think it will lead us! Where are we going in the course of a lifetime? What kind of a world will we leave behind us? Will it be goodbye or good riddance? What will our children lack, when we have gone, that we enjoyed in abundance?
There are of course enough people who are still fighting for survival, but who are they fighting against and why are they not getting help? If we are their opposition, whether financially, militarily or because we have used up their resources, then we shouldn’t be surprised if there is some kind of animosity in them. It wouldn’t be wise to try and play any morality cards in that game.

"IF" we are???
Of course we are.

They are the wrong that we do to their children, as were we and all those before us.

Bob wrote:But, seriously, if the West is primarily Christian, (in the words of 4 Non Blondes) “Whats goin on?”

The "West" is very largely anti-Christian, but just too blinded to wake up to it.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: Good Friday

Postby Bob » Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:50 pm

James S Saint wrote:The issue was one of "the willingness to sacrifice for the greater good", the very foundation of all societies and life (although seldom properly applied .. well, okay .. never).

Well, yes ... In a way that is also what I am talking about. It only depends on your perspective: if you're on the ohne side it is about idealism of this kind. On the other side, we have with the proceedings leading up to the trial a good example of denunciation and oppression on the part of a vassal institution.

James S Saint wrote:Since you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem. You prevent energies from being directed in the right direction by diverting them in the wrong direction (it ain't rocket science).

Agreed, which is what I am actually saying, thanks for clearing that up.

James S Saint wrote:When we presume to act before thinking more carefully .. and thus divert energies in the wrong directions.

It seems to only be one problem ...

James S Saint wrote:If we are their opposition, whether financially, militarily or because we have used up their resources, then we shouldn’t be surprised if there is some kind of animosity in them. It wouldn’t be wise to try and play any morality cards in that game.

"IF" we are???
Of course we are.[/quote]
It was a kind of rhetorical statement ... But we agree ...

James S Saint wrote:They are the wrong that we do to their children, as were we and all those before us.

I haven't quite grasped what you mean by this ...

James S Saint wrote:The "West" is very largely anti-Christian, but just too blinded to wake up to it.
I guess that put the lid on it :)
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Re: Good Friday

Postby Bob » Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:50 pm

James S Saint wrote:The issue was one of "the willingness to sacrifice for the greater good", the very foundation of all societies and life (although seldom properly applied .. well, okay .. never).

Well, yes ... In a way that is also what I am talking about. It only depends on your perspective: if you're on the one side it is about idealism of this kind. On the other side, we have with the proceedings leading up to the trial a good example of denunciation and oppression on the part of a vassal institution.

James S Saint wrote:Since you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem. You prevent energies from being directed in the right direction by diverting them in the wrong direction (it ain't rocket science).

Agreed, which is what I am actually saying, thanks for clearing that up.

James S Saint wrote:When we presume to act before thinking more carefully .. and thus divert energies in the wrong directions.

It seems to only be one problem ...

James S Saint wrote:
Bob wrote:If we are their opposition, whether financially, militarily or because we have used up their resources, then we shouldn’t be surprised if there is some kind of animosity in them. It wouldn’t be wise to try and play any morality cards in that game.

"IF" we are???
Of course we are.

It was a kind of rhetorical statement ... But we agree ...

James S Saint wrote:They are the wrong that we do to their children, as were we and all those before us.

I haven't quite grasped what you mean by this ...

James S Saint wrote:The "West" is very largely anti-Christian, but just too blinded to wake up to it.
I guess that put the lid on it :)
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
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Re: Good Friday

Postby Arminius » Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:06 pm

pilgrim_tom wrote:consumerism and materialism promote individualism

Individualism undermines solidarity

The absence of solidarity facilitates control by the few

A winning strategy ....

Agreed.
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Re: Good Friday

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:29 am

Bob wrote:Get a grasp of the big picture Ucc. and it isn't about condemnation - its about waking up


"Waking up" ... hmmm! ... perhaps an incredibly profound expression.

Perhaps "waking up" infers returning to our pre-evolutionary state. Imagine life without any of our five senses ... with help we could sustain life ... no? What would this life be like? Without giving it much thought ... it would be pretty dark ... not particularly appealing.

Perhaps the thought of returning to this "darkness" is what keeps us resisting the notion of "waking up".
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