Why did we stop inventing gods?

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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby phyllo » Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:51 pm

...something like 70% of all Christians believing in hell...

In the USA, 3% of atheists believe in hell, 9% of agnostics, 32% of Buddhists and 22% of Jews.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... -and-hell/

What? :o
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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:53 pm

phyllo wrote:
...close to 100% of Christians believing in a salvific Christ...
Wow. Almost all Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the way to salvation. That's incredible. :lol:


Have you not read the apostle creed that all Christians are to uphold?

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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:54 pm

phyllo wrote:
...something like 70% of all Christians believing in hell...

In the USA, 3% of atheists believe in hell, 9% of agnostics, 32% of Buddhists and 22% of Jews.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... -and-hell/

What? :o


And you chastised me for changing topic. Oh well.

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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby phyllo » Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:58 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
phyllo wrote:
...close to 100% of Christians believing in a salvific Christ...
Wow. Almost all Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the way to salvation. That's incredible. :lol:


Have you not read the apostle creed that all Christians are to uphold?

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You have absolutely no sense of humor. :D
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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:06 pm

phyllo wrote:
You have absolutely no sense of humor. :D[/quote]

I admit to not using my rather good sense of humor much in these places and missing the nuances of those who do in these forums, --- because I have a hard time finding it in written words. Possibly because I am serious in discussions.

I do wish I had the gift more then I could follow this good advice.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:01 pm

Greatest I am,


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Gnosticism

Had to google it. Had no idea what a gnostic christian was but after reading, I don't see any similarities between them and myself.
At one time I was a practicing catholic but no more. I'm agnostic, don't believe that Christ, if he ever existed, was the Messiah.
I think I'm more of a pagan if anything.

How can you possibly "see' me as a gnostic christian or a gnostic?

So, you can now take the "good for you" away. :evilfun:
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby phyllo » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:26 pm

There is no point in looking up "Christian Gnosticism" because he does not believe what the Gnostics believed. He doesn't even believe in a God of some sort - demiurge, or supreme being or something else.

He's an atheist who is playing a game.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:32 pm

phyllo wrote:There is no point in looking up "Christian Gnosticism" because he does not believe what the Gnostics believed. He doesn't even believe in a God of some sort - demiurge, or supreme being or something else.

He's an atheist who is playing a game.


Well, I like games and I'm closer to being an atheist certainly than a christian.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby phyllo » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:33 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
phyllo wrote:There is no point in looking up "Christian Gnosticism" because he does not believe what the Gnostics believed. He doesn't even believe in a God of some sort - demiurge, or supreme being or something else.

He's an atheist who is playing a game.


Well, I like games and I'm closer to being an atheist certainly than a christian.
That's great but the point was about honesty.
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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:55 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:Greatest I am,


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Gnosticism

Had to google it. Had no idea what a gnostic christian was but after reading, I don't see any similarities between them and myself.
At one time I was a practicing catholic but no more. I'm agnostic, don't believe that Christ, if he ever existed, was the Messiah.
I think I'm more of a pagan if anything.

How can you possibly "see' me as a gnostic christian or a gnostic?

So, you can now take the "good for you" away. :evilfun:


Well, your many gods view is expressed by this Gnostic Christian saying and we also see Jesus as an archetypal good man that may never have existed.

Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

I read you as mentally rich.

Apologies if that insults you.

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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:57 pm

phyllo wrote:There is no point in looking up "Christian Gnosticism" because he does not believe what the Gnostics believed. He doesn't even believe in a God of some sort - demiurge, or supreme being or something else.

He's an atheist who is playing a game.


Hogwash.

We believe in the only god we can ever know. Ourselves.

Let me explain using Christian and Jewish myths.

This Gnostic Christian’s apology for calling myself God.

Adam and Eve became as Gods when they gained a moral sense and no longer had their mind cut off from intelligent thought. As our primordial ancestors, we inherit that same trait even though Christianity wrongly thinks that to be evil and a fall. Retaining dominion over the earth, humans never revoked this inherited trait of a moral sense, --- and the right for man to judge himself. Jesus highlights this when he took the seat of judgement at God’s right hand.

When I use terms like “I am God”, or “you are God”, I am not speaking of the traditional miracle working God of scriptures and myths. He does not exist as far as we can know as he has never made an appearance to prove his reality.

What I am trying to convey to you by saying that you are a God in your own right is to be master of yourself and you need not be a sheep. You can, as Jesus says, pick up your burdens and responsibilities for your sins and follow his mind set. Be a shepherd. Lead by example.

What I am trying to convey is that the only God you can ever know is the good you find within yourself. It's your ideal of God and of the Jesus or Christ mind. That is quite different from me or someone thinking they are the traditional creator God, or thinking that they are more than anyone else. Both Jesus and the Christ in these myths are for equality. Not the misogyny that we presently enjoy. That is another topic though. We are to be co-equal with Jesus.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Jesus would explain this concept as one just seeing that they have joined God’s Divine Council by embracing his own Christ mind. Or better said, as this is the more eastern Jesus, we activate our pineal gland and open our third eye.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Council

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded

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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby phyllo » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:22 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
phyllo wrote:There is no point in looking up "Christian Gnosticism" because he does not believe what the Gnostics believed. He doesn't even believe in a God of some sort - demiurge, or supreme being or something else.

He's an atheist who is playing a game.


Hogwash.

We believe in the only god we can ever know. Ourselves.

...

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You don't need to say more. Case closed.
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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:21 pm

phyllo wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
phyllo wrote:There is no point in looking up "Christian Gnosticism" because he does not believe what the Gnostics believed. He doesn't even believe in a God of some sort - demiurge, or supreme being or something else.

He's an atheist who is playing a game.


Hogwash.

We believe in the only god we can ever know. Ourselves.

...

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You don't need to say more. Case closed.


Show anything that shows that mankind is not the supreme example of what people should be following.

Logic and reason say it is but if you have lost those to supernatural beliefs and fantasy, then I pity you.

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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:30 pm

Show anything that shows that mankind is not the supreme example of what people should be following.


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Nuclear bombs.
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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:34 pm

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:
Show anything that shows that mankind is not the supreme example of what people should be following.


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Nuclear bombs.


Those are a damned site better than Noah's flood.

Thanks for making my case.

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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby phyllo » Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:50 pm

Show anything that shows that mankind is not the supreme example of what people should be following.

Logic and reason say it is but if you have lost those to supernatural beliefs and fantasy, then I pity you.

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I fail to see why you keep applying the 'Gnostic Christian' label to yourself.

Why don't you just admit to being an atheist?

So you're a secular humanist.

Is there something wrong with that?
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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby Greatest I am » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:22 am

phyllo wrote:[
quote]Show anything that shows that mankind is not the supreme example of what people should be following.

Logic and reason say it is but if you have lost those to supernatural beliefs and fantasy, then I pity you.

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I fail to see why you keep applying the 'Gnostic Christian' label to yourself.

Why don't you just admit to being an atheist?


Because that is not what I am.

So you're a secular humanist.

Is there something wrong with that?
[/quote]

Not that I know of.

We all have labels that fit us best. In my case, Gnostic Christian, as I understand the term, is my best label. I do add esoteric ecumenist and naturalist to it which says that I can study atheism and secular humanism as just two other human divisions and ideologies.

At least, when I criticize the immoral mainstream religions, they see that it is another religionist doing it and not a true non-believer even though they call us heretics.

I hope that my label carries more weight than if a non-believer is doing the criticizing.

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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:29 pm

Greatest I am



Well, your many gods view is expressed by this Gnostic Christian saying and we also see Jesus as an archetypal good man that may never have existed.


I was waxing poetic. I don't actually think of the stars, planets, oceans, et cetera as gods like the ancients did.
I may stand in awe of them at times and worship them but not literally as gods.



Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."


The so-called kingdom to me is everywhere and everything which my mind/heart/spirit interfaces with and which causes me to be moved.

I read you as mentally rich.

Apologies if that insults you.


How could anyone take that as an insult? Whether or not you actually meant it to be true, I find that I am often mentally rich as you say. There is still an opposite side to that coin which I am. I can also at times be mentally poor. lol But I do seem to have wonderful brain chemistry - most of the time. Who knows, maybe it's also because of my Irish/Italian genes. lol and my life's journey.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby Greatest I am » Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:06 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:Greatest I am



Well, your many gods view is expressed by this Gnostic Christian saying and we also see Jesus as an archetypal good man that may never have existed.


I was waxing poetic. I don't actually think of the stars, planets, oceans, et cetera as gods like the ancients did.
I may stand in awe of them at times and worship them but not literally as gods.



Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."


The so-called kingdom to me is everywhere and everything which my mind/heart/spirit interfaces with and which causes me to be moved.

I read you as mentally rich.

Apologies if that insults you.


How could anyone take that as an insult? Whether or not you actually meant it to be true, I find that I am often mentally rich as you say. There is still an opposite side to that coin which I am. I can also at times be mentally poor. lol But I do seem to have wonderful brain chemistry - most of the time. Who knows, maybe it's also because of my Irish/Italian genes. lol and my life's journey.


The odd person does see it as an insult when anything spiritual od religious is attributed to them.

I am pleased you are not.

True that we should not see the physical world around us as a god in the usual definition of god as sentient.

I take it as god's kingdom and do see nature as a great teacher, --- without the sentience. I see nature as perfect in it's own right without having to swallow Intelligent Design.

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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby MagsJ » Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:13 am

Greatest I am wrote:Both those religions grew by the sword and not by good deeds or a compelling theology.

A theology based on another's fables, it seems.

The Mystery schools though were doing quite well as free thinking institutions before Christianity gained political power and killed them off.

If one wants a moral theology to follow and recognizes that Christianity won the god wars, they would have to look to those who lost the war because they were likely more moral than the winner, Christianity.

So far my studies of Gnostic Christianity has proven that the best theology was theirs and that is why free thinking was outlawed by Christianity.

Christians burned most of the Gnostic Christian scriptures, but luckily some were buried and that better theology is emerging and we are as in Christianity's face now just as we were in the past. If they could kill us all off again, they would.

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http://www.modernmysteryschoolint.com/ Who knew this existed :confusion-shrug:

This need for the West to dominate the masses is the cause of global ruin, in my eyes.
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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:23 pm

Greatest I Am,


The odd person does see it as an insult when anything spiritual od religious is attributed to them.

I am pleased you are not.


Oh, there are some out there who might consider me to be odd or strange. Really. I sometimes intuit that within myself. I find nothing wrong with it...being odd, that is. "Odd" is just another's perspective and sometimes a biased one at that.

Aside from that, I can't quite grasp your meaning above. You are pleased I am not WHAT? The "odd" person? But I am.


Is it possible that some people are not capable of remaining "humble" when they're told that they are spiritual or religious? It makes them uncomfortable. Perhaps to them it feels as though they're being controlled in some way and have to go on to prove how spiritual and religious they are. :evilfun: Then there are those who thrive on their spirituality though in actuality there's really not much there at all.



True that we should not see the physical world around us as a god in the usual definition of god as sentient.

Humans are sentient. Can we use that human term to define god?


I take it as god's kingdom and do see nature as a great teacher, --- without the sentience. I see nature as perfect in it's own right without having to swallow Intelligent Design.

Nature is indeed a great teach if we listen and observe her. I've learned much at her feet.
Define "perfect".


Intelligent Design


That's a tricky one for me. I am not reconciled to a God's Intelligent Design but I do still see and intuit the intelligence, structured organization, timely patterns (for lack of a better phrase) breathtaking awesomeness, et cetera. I can intuit that there has to be lol something but i couldn't call it god and certainly not a personal god but that's just me.
I don't think we'll ever get to this mystery unless it's revealed and I don't really see that happening. Whatever we intuit and think we know just comes from our brain chemistry. I'm more or less a pagan. lol
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:13 pm

MagsJ wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Both those religions grew by the sword and not by good deeds or a compelling theology.

A theology based on another's fables, it seems.


No argument for sure.
The Mystery schools though were doing quite well as free thinking institutions before Christianity gained political power and killed them off.

If one wants a moral theology to follow and recognizes that Christianity won the god wars, they would have to look to those who lost the war because they were likely more moral than the winner, Christianity.

So far my studies of Gnostic Christianity has proven that the best theology was theirs and that is why free thinking was outlawed by Christianity.

Christians burned most of the Gnostic Christian scriptures, but luckily some were buried and that better theology is emerging and we are as in Christianity's face now just as we were in the past. If they could kill us all off again, they would.

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DL

http://www.modernmysteryschoolint.com/ Who knew this existed :confusion-shrug:

This need for the West to dominate the masses is the cause of global ruin, in my eyes.


??

More and more atheist churches and mystery scools are popping up all over the place.

Some preachers in some Christian churches are also telling more of the truth of the bible being un-inspired by god and preaching that it is all allegory and metaphor. Even Jesus.

The truth has a way of coming out.

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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:22 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:Greatest I Am,


The odd person does see it as an insult when anything spiritual od religious is attributed to them.

I am pleased you are not.


Oh, there are some out there who might consider me to be odd or strange. Really. I sometimes intuit that within myself. I find nothing wrong with it...being odd, that is. "Odd" is just another's perspective and sometimes a biased one at that.

Aside from that, I can't quite grasp your meaning above. You are pleased I am not WHAT? The "odd" person? But I am.


Is it possible that some people are not capable of remaining "humble" when they're told that they are spiritual or religious? It makes them uncomfortable. Perhaps to them it feels as though they're being controlled in some way and have to go on to prove how spiritual and religious they are. :evilfun: Then there are those who thrive on their spirituality though in actuality there's really not much there at all.



True that we should not see the physical world around us as a god in the usual definition of god as sentient.

Humans are sentient. Can we use that human term to define god?


I take it as god's kingdom and do see nature as a great teacher, --- without the sentience. I see nature as perfect in it's own right without having to swallow Intelligent Design.

Nature is indeed a great teach if we listen and observe her. I've learned much at her feet.
Define "perfect".


Intelligent Design


That's a tricky one for me. I am not reconciled to a God's Intelligent Design but I do still see and intuit the intelligence, structured organization, timely patterns (for lack of a better phrase) breathtaking awesomeness, et cetera. I can intuit that there has to be lol something but i couldn't call it god and certainly not a personal god but that's just me.
I don't think we'll ever get to this mystery unless it's revealed and I don't really see that happening. Whatever we intuit and think we know just comes from our brain chemistry. I'm more or less a pagan. lol


In using odd above, I was using it to mean odd number of people. Not odd person as in strange.

As to defining perfect as in the perfection of nature.

I see nature as always creating for the best possible end, given all the conditions and environment where life starts. Any life.

There is indeed what we would call intelligent structure to natural systems. If there was none, the structure would have likely gone extinct. I think there has to be if as we can see, natures creates for the best possible end.

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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:07 pm

Ierrellus wrote:God "invented" us.


Like Eli Whitney "invented" the cotton gin?

I think that it's the other way around - we've been since forever inventing God or gods...and this will continue on til death do us part from this mad Earth.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?

Postby Greatest I am » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:08 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:God "invented" us.


Like Eli Whitney "invented" the cotton gin?

I think that it's the other way around - we've been since forever inventing God or gods...and this will continue on til death do us part from this mad Earth.


Indeed. As it should be.

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DL
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