I don't get Buddhism

instaed of going to address point by point, i will take the core issue only; anatman

The most common mistake about understanding religions what is done is that we try to see them in isolation and try to draw meaning purrely what we read. That is not the right way to understand what they are saying. Religions, especially the ancient ones, do not deal merely in spirituality but are equaly concerned about the daily life of the people, for a simple reason that their promoters knew that if the routine life of the folks were not calm and peacefull, they cannot be taught about spirituality. Thus, every religion has two parts, one for folks and other one for scholars. Religions realized that their duty is not offering mere spirituality but a complete lifestyle for the masses.

The place of Buddhism and Jainism is the same in Hinduism what is of Christianity in Abrahamic religions. Chirstianity took away all the complexity of Judism and made it very simple for the followers so that a layman can clearly understand and follow the same. Buddhism and Jainism tried to do the same and were quite successful in their attempt too. These are corrective/complementary religions within the broad canvas of Hinduism. The third in this caregory is Sikkhism which stands somewhere between both of these and conventional Hinduism in ideology.

if you go through the Buddhisht cosmolgy throughly, you will find that the details of the habitants of the higher spiritual planes are also mentioned like, what is thier forms, qualities and lifespans. Only a fool will go in such a detail if something does not remain after death and goes there. And, if one is suposed not to take all that detail literally, why one is supposed to take the concept of anatman literally?

And lastly but most importantly( especially for me) reason is that if an ordinary person like me can draw a conclusion of having atman from my limited efforts and experiences, i cannot accept that a commited person like Buddha, who spent almost his whole life in finding answers, would not be aware of the reality.

That is the meaning of word Sant, and that is not what santmant stands for. Santmat meants the opinion/way of the saints..

In the past some centuries, there has been many enlightened saints in India, who presented their own version of reality and how to attain that. The most prominant one is Saint Kabir, whose timeline is around 15th century. Ther are many after him too. All these saints founded their orgnizations which are called Dera in local language like, Dera Saccha Sauda, Dera Sahib bandgi, Dera Vyas etc. TThese deras say more or less the same thing. The difference between conventional Hinduism and these are that these focus more on meditation. They go in details, which is missing( or perhaps lost) in Conventional Hinduism beacuse of the time lapsed. These schools talk about 14 planes(Chakras) instead of nine which are mentioned in Hinduism. They do not criticize Hinduism but say it is incomplete. Final destination is even beyond.

The reason i find these schools more interesting is that unlike Hinduism, in person litratures of the promoters of all these schools are still available so there is no chance of someone corrupting and misinterpreting.

with love,
sanja

Prismatic,

Also, you seemed surprised by the proposition that human-beings don’t have instincts. Have you never read about that?

You’re taking “snake oil” comment out of context It was not intended to offend you. It was in relation to a particular point and I gave an explanation for it.

If that’s all you’ve taken away from what I’ve stated then I too perceive that I am wasting my time.

Yes, I am surprised in the first instance on the claim human-beings don’t have instincts.
In which particular section of your link it is stated?

On 2nd thought, I agree, one can bypass the concept of instincts by presenting those neural impulses from a different perspective.
Example I can state a diamond gem is soft, if view from the electron perspective and I have an electron based laser.

However, no psychologists and other scientists would in their right mind at the present, will accept ‘there are is ‘absolutely’ no instincts in human being’.

I believe there is a big difference between what is Christianity to Judaism from what is Buddhism to Hinduism.

In ‘Judaism to Christianity’ there is no paradigmatic change in the idea of God except the moral standards are changed significantly from where God was very violent to suit the times to a God who was a pacifist, i.e. ‘love all - even enemies’.

In ‘Hinduism to Buddhism’ there is a 180% turn from theism, atman and Brahman of Hinduism to non-theism, anatman and alaya-vijnana of Buddhism.

alaya-vijnana is not equivalent to Brahman of Hinduism.
alaya-vijnana refer to ‘store-consciousness.’
learnreligions.com/alaya-vi … ess-449659
This idea is only claimed by the yogacara school but not others who claim there is ‘nothing’.
The overriding idea is that of Sunyata, the idea of ‘emptiness’ and even emptiness of emptiness.
In this case, there is nothing for the Buddhist to cling to [no possibility of attachment] while interacting in reality in the Now.

In terms of core-principles, Hinduism and Buddhism are on the opposite end of each other.

I mentioned earlier, the fanciful stuffs are to be taken allegorically and not in the real sense.

Note this is from your link;
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmology

The cosmology has also been interpreted in a symbolical or allegorical sense (for Mahayana teaching see Ten spiritual realms).

The picture of the world presented in Buddhist cosmological descriptions cannot be taken as a literal description of the shape of the universe. It is inconsistent, and cannot be made consistent, with astronomical data that were already known in ancient India.

As mentioned above;
The overriding idea is that of Sunyata, the idea of ‘emptiness’ and even emptiness of emptiness.
In the case of Buddhism, there is no atman and no Brahaman. In this case there is nothing for the Buddhist to cling to [no possibility of attachment] while interacting in reality in the Now.

The idea of anatman is viewed literally as a negative but not taken realistically. Since anatman is in the negative, there is no essence in it to be positive and be real.

Note I have discussed at length with Fanman in the previous posts, why the mind reaches for ‘something’ [God in religion] rather than ‘nothing’ is due to one’s internal psychology.
The main purpose of Buddhism-proper is to manage and deal with this terrible internal psychology starting with the Buddha Story [a myth].

I have already provided plenty of evidences and explanation.
I am going to waste time explaining again and again.

However, I am very interested in your argument,
Fanman: “I believe that pattern recognition and attributing agency is a primary cause of [some] religious belief”
If you can present your argument with sequential premises, that would be great.

Prismatic,

Note: I have updated my previous post re the snake oil comment.

Not sequentially, I don’t know what the sequential premises are cognitively. I have searched, but I didn’t find anything substantive. In short, what I believe is that data (including fear), is relayed dynamically between the conscious and subconscious mind, consisting of a variety of sensory information. Then, based upon both the conscious and subconscious cognition of the data, things are interpreted, like agency etc. I don’t believe there is a strict sequential series in terms of cognition, but I could be wrong.

Re humans not having instincts, the section of the link which discusses this is “history”. It won’t take you long to read the whole article though.

KT,

I think that you’re right, but I’ve decided to stick with it as long as he participates - in spite of his ways.

I can take away a few things from this discussion so it hasn’t been a waste of time. I’ve learned quite a lot here. It would be cool if you participated also at this stage.

I’ve reached my too cranky point. I spent years with one person, so I understand that you can be getting stuff. For me it has to be about human nature. The issue gets discussed, but when I have put in for the long haul, I have tried to find different ways to explain what I see as the blank spots. And then wondered over human nature and the person in particular. How can they not get what I mean? Is the cognitive dissonance so strong they simply will not see it? And then over time, what is the motivation for X has to be what they say it is? What is that doing? That kept me going for years with one person and I did learn a lot. About myself, about people, about my assumptions.

My sense is that if these side issues are not on the table - not necessarily in the posts - then it’s a bit like letting someone torture you.

But you seem to have a good handle on yourself.

To tie this to Buddhism - in a sense a long conversation like this is a bit like meditating on someone. Of course, you have to check up on yourself also, during this. But it ends up oddly intimate. And that’s better, I think, than meditating on the breath, say. More complicated, but richer.

KT,

I agree. It is exactly that.

I’ve been trained and I’m quite experienced in dealing with behaviours. So when I get the brow beating, it kind of rolls off after the initial “wtf?” I tend to make a sport of it, because I lose respect for the person - whilst keeping serious about the topic. Rightly or wrongly, that’s my approach.

Your contribution here has been appreciated.

Prismatic,

=D>

I can certainly agree with this. The mind does reach for things that are associated with religious belief, though of course not in all cases. If we are speaking strictly about the continuation of life after death, then I believe that the fear of death (not necessarily the subconscious fear of death) is a cause of this, amongst other existential anxieties and questions. I think it is plausible to claim that the fear of death (conscious or subconscious) is a factor in religious belief, but realistically, religious belief could be caused by any number of factors, given that people are individuals. What is a “root cause” for some is not necessarily a root cause for others.

To claim what you are, on the basis of something very close to human instincts, which may or may not exist in relation to your claim, and further to use the operator “all”, is where (IMV) your argument falls apart. Fundamentally, if you’re going to keep arguing this as a fact. Your going to have to provide the evidence, period.

It is ridiculous to claim that you’ve provided factual evidence, that hasn’t been recognised by anyone here.

“Is The Buddhist ‘No-Self’ Doctrine Compatible With Pursuing Nirvana?”
Katie Javanaud asks whether there is a contradiction at the heart of Buddhism.

Once again [in my view] this is basically a scholastic assessment of the “self” that amounts to a general description of nothing in particular. One has a clear “conception” of the self because it revolves almost entirely around concepts defining and defending other concepts. To expose something as a “convenient fiction”, we have to examine the choices that “I” actually make in a particular context and differentiate what we can know to be in fact true and what is merely a personal opinion based on a specific set of assumptions regarding human interactions “in general”.

And, even here, to speak of, “when Buddhist assert the doctrine of ‘no self’”, is in itself based on the assumption that there is in fact only one way that all Buddhists around the globe think about this. Even only as a concept.

Okay, but then take this person and situate him or her in a set of circumstances whereby in interacting with others the dots are connected between the “good life” on this side of the grave, karma, and one’s fate on the other side of the grave.

As this might all unfold in regard to my “illegal immigrant” example above, or in regard to an ensuing political upheaval as is unfolding for particular Buddhists in Hong Kong.

An “exhaustive analysis” of “heaps, aggregates, collections, groupings” pertaining to “forms, sensations, perceptions, mental activity and consciousness”?

That sort of analysis?

Okay, but then bring this assessment out into the world in which Buddhists interact with others who see the “self” in very, very different ways. What then? If only [for now] on this side of the grave.

You have asserted at length. You have consistantly conflated correlation with cause. You have repeatedly ignored the complexity and development of religions. You have asserted things about the mental processes of people long dead with great certainty. You ignore facets of religion - in practices, texts, self-reporting, ceremonies, commentaries - that do not fit your hypothesis, even when these vastly outweigh the presence of evidence that your hypothesis is correct and complete.

There are basic philosophical discussion practices and concepts that you do not understand. Your posts are riddled with fallacies and conflate possibility with certainty, contributing factors (at best) with solitary causes, assertion with coherent argument, parts you select for the whole (of texts for example), book knowledge with a more complete knowledge and your own sense of certainty with evidence for others.

It is not even remotely close to what a decent professor would accept as a solid opinion paper.

You have a speculative hypothesis. Which is peachy, if it is presented as that. and then if you actually deal with counterarguments in specific rather than dismissing them with appeals to incredulity. Or with someone disagreeing with you means they think there is no unconscious mind or fear of death. Strawmen, red herrings. In fact your posts provide excellent examples of many fallacies and evasions.

Look up, cognitive dissonance, please, and just consider for a moment that you might not want to notice what a great many people have, in common, said about the flaws in your arguments might be the case.

Not for our sake, but for yours.

My main point is whatever the forms and facets of religion which I have accounted for, they are all reducible to the subconscious fear of death response to avoid death.

The above is all talk but no specific counter to the premises I have raised.

Cognitive dissonance is actually a central element and mainstay of my argument.
I have not discussed it in detail here but have done in other threads.

Sequentially… that is the basic rule of logic, i.e. one premise must follow from the previous to the conclusion, otherwise it is non-sequitor.

There is no absolute determination, but from the beginning of evolution to the present, all events are deterministic, thus sequential.

You need to update your knowledge on the neural circuits of primal fear and emotional fear, plus the amydala short-circuit that ranged from the subconscious and conscious.
What is critical here is the conscious fear of death is heavily suppressed.

On the point of agencity.
Note this apply to those earlier group of theists who founded the concept of god as an agent [driven by agenticity] and invented holy books to establish God as the ultimate agent.
Those theists [then and now] who later cling to a God do not rely on their pattern recognition and agenticity in relation to theism.
These theists merely cling to what is presented them with a promise of eternal life which is directly driven by the subconscious-fear-of-death responses based on faith, not by agencity.
Their agenticity may drive them to see the image of Jesus in a sandwich, surface of the moon, but not of God.
The idea of the ontological God is not based on agenticity but by solely from crude reasoning.

Do you agree, it is certain [scientific wise] human do not have instincts?
It would be crazy if you do.
At most, that is only valid from a different perspective.

You made a misinterpretation “humans not having instincts”.

Note the wiki point;

By the year 2000, a survey of the 12 best selling textbooks in Introductory Psychology revealed only one reference to instincts, and that was in regard to Sigmund Freud’s referral to the “id” instincts.[citation needed] In this sense, the term ‘instinct’ appeared to have become outmoded for introductory textbooks on human psychology.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct#History

I would not depend on this wiki point [the contributor seem myopic] too much.

It only the used of the word ‘instinct’ but not what ‘instinct’ actually represent in psychology and neuroscience, i.e. “Instinct or innate behavior is the inherent inclination of a living organism towards a particular complex behavior.”

If you google the term ‘instinct’ it is still very popularly used within the psychology community, e.g.

How Does Instinct Work?
Instinct involves inherited behavior. How can behaviors be inherited?
psychologytoday.com/intl/bl … tinct-work

Actually, your “human beings do not have instinct” to counter my premises is very cheap, based on a falsehood and deceptive.

If you read the ‘History’ section at the beginning is this;

Jean Henri Fabre (1823-1915), an entomologist, considered instinct to be any behavior which did not require cognition or consciousness to perform.
An interest in innate behaviors arose again in the 1950s with Konrad Lorenz and Nikolaas Tinbergen, who made the distinction between instinct and learned behaviors. Our modern understanding of instinctual behavior in animals owes much to their work.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct# … al_biology

Human beings inherited most the animal and mammalian neural functions via evolution, the above qualities are not likely to have changed in relation to instincts between animals and human beings. At most there are some additions at the frills but not the substance of it.

It is still true, human instincts do not require cognition or consciousness to perform.

It is said in the article, 4000 types of instinct were identified.
When I talk of the subconscious-of-fear-of-death instinct or responses, it is a very deep primal instinct [the very early] which had evolved long before and inherited by human being via evolution.
Such an instinct definitely preceded the pattern recognition of agencity which require ‘cognition’.
Note the above point, instincts do not require cognition or consciousness to perform, in this case, more so with the primal instinct of the subconscious-of-fear-of-death instinct.

You and KT made a lot of complains with my arguments and presentation.
Your lack and incapable to grasp my argument is more to do with your limitations than my lack of evidences. It is that I have thrown in too much [necessary] information and knowledge herein that you are unable to see them in a whole picture and perspective.

Prismatic,

Where did I specifically claim that human-beings don’t have instincts?

I specifically stated that it has been argued that human being don’t have instincts. One of the points I was referring to was this excerpt from the wiki article, which you seem to have missed;

I’m not sure if human beings have instincts, there are arguments both for and against it.

This;

Requires evidence.

As I had stated it is matter of perspective, i.e. Maslow’s perspective.
When Maslow (1908 – June 8, 1970) was active, the neurosciences were in the very early infancy phase, thus he [a psychologist] did not have knowledge of finer workings of the brain.

There is no way babies and infant can override these instincts.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct# … _in_humans

Adult humans has the cognitive power to modulate the impulses of the instincts and primal instincts but there is no way the inherent and innate instincts from the DNA-RNA could be changed.
In most cases, many adults are controlled by their instincts rather than they overriding their primal and other inherent, innate and hardwired instincts.

In this case, Maslow’s view on instinct is insignificant to current views of the inherent innate instincts.

Prismatic,

This is the last time I’m going to ask. Could you please provide the evidence which substantiates your claim: “The subconscious fear of death is the root cause of all religions.”

If you don’t provide it, then I’m going to assume that you can’t. If you perceive that you already have and it has been missed, could you then summarise your evidential points into a coherent post. Until you do this, it will be difficult to move forward.

What sort of evidence do you need?
I don’t think you know what evidences you are look for in this case.

In any case, I have provided justified argument and sufficient evidences.

Btw, my objective is not to ensure you grasp the whole argument since I am aware you will not be able to do so. My purpose is thus to hope you can offer any refutations from your perspective and hopefully from others as well.

For example, your point ‘human beings do not have instinct’ took me by surprise and I got interested in that because if true could counter my premise which is based on instincts, i.e. primal instincts from the subconscious mind.
Upon further consideration and reading, the point your raised above from Maslow is not significant to my argument.

Do you have any more of such points that could shake the foundation of my premises?

Prismatic,

What I’m asking you for, is information from sources other than yourself, which demonstrate that your claim is valid.

Continually debating this on the basis of what you’ve argued is pointless. Let’s assess how the evidence relates to your claim.