I don't get Buddhism

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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby phyllo » Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:02 pm

promethean75 wrote:
The real problem is that anything that the Buddhist says will be an existential contraption. And therefore, essentially useless.


people drawn to buddhism are usually either experiencing some kind of economic hardship or they're just interested in it because it's a designer religion that gives them a feeling of culture and depth (that isn't there). and, so long as it still exists, it will serve only as a distraction... away from things which, ironically, are part of the very circumstances that cause their attention to be drawn to it (in the case that they aren't just religious tourists).

That's the idea that the problems are outside of you and so are the solutions to those problems. Political action is the way to proceed.

Religions are the opium of the people. They keep people distracted, busy, wasting their time and energy.

I recall that Biggus also expressed that sentiment.

Is that a part of nihilism?
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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby MagsJ » Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:50 pm

phyllo wrote:
I’d say it’s simply about being the best human-being you can be, and not enjoying life at the expense of others.. my Bangladeshi Buddhism-practising uncle taught me that, passed down from his (family) generations, so taught as it’s meant to be traditionally taught, and not as a religious concept.

It’s simply a method of tweaking one’s thinking, to live a more fulfilling life.
Sure. You could say that.

But you could also say that human interactions are means to attaining nirvana and the end of your own personal suffering. Just as a capitalist could see human interactions as a means to acquire wealth. For a hedonist ... to get pleasure. A nihilist ... to get whatever he decides that he wants.

There are various ways to look at it ... some beautiful and some ugly. ("Beautiful" and "ugly" also being different ways of looking at the "various ways to look at it". )

You could say a Christian is just clawing his way into heaven, one "loving" act at a time.

What does 'meaningful' and 'meaningless' come down to?

Sorry to break the news to you, but none of that is relevant or applies to a practitioner born into a practising environment.. so a way of every day life, for such families and communities.

I would then say, that you are looking at it from an externalised viewpoint, as opposed to allowing the self to become entrenched in the concept.. as the only thing the practitioner seeks is stillness of mind.

You are thinking about it in Western terms and analogies. Religions are belief systems, that you gotta buy into to believe in.. with meditation and mindfulness, there is nothing to buy into.

phyllo wrote:Do Buddhists have meaning that others lack? That others can't get?

I would say that it’s not about meaning, but about having control and direction of one’s own thoughts, as opposed to being ruled by them, and nurturing the ones that have utility. I would say that that is what non-practitioners can’t get, in not letting one’s problems cloud one’s judgment and interactions. Too many have been guilty of that.

Where does meaning come from? Inside? Outside? Both? Neither?

How much of it is attitude?

..from within, which then manifests outwardly, with every interaction we have.

Attitude? Practice erases unnecessary thoughts and habits, so call it a detox for the mind.. if you will. A seasoned practitioner can automatically reset their thinking habits at will, so as to be constantly operating from a place of mindfulness.. and so the practice has become second nature, hardwired into the mind.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ


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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby promethean75 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:53 pm

I recall that Biggus also expressed that sentiment.

Is that a part of nihilism?


which part? calling bollocks for what it is, or criticizing the reasons why people believe in the bollocks? this is more along the lines of skepticism than nihilism, though. if there is any nihilism happening here, it's probably from biggs (and myself to a degree) standing aghast at the sight of all this. it's enough to make you lose all hope. i mean look at poor biggs. he's been asking for a particular context for what, three years now? and all he keeps getting are the same redundant generalizations... or statements so obscure they make hegel and heidegger look like third grade english teachers.


really though there's no such thing as 'nihilism'. nihilism is kinda like skeptical existentialism with an attitude, you might say. it doesn't 'deny all values' because that's impossible. think of it as hume on adderall, instead.
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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby iambiguous » Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:59 pm

phyllo wrote: Do Buddhists have meaning that others lack? That others can't get?


Do they? What, when, where, how, why? Under what set of circumstances?

phyllo wrote: Where does meaning come from? Inside? Outside? Both? Neither?


Okay, you and others come to a conclusion about that. Me, what I am then interested in [in regard to religion] is how that conclusion "in your head" is intertwined in your interactions with others. In particular as this relates to a context in which value judgments [derived from religion] come into conflict with the value judgments of others [derived from religion or not] such that you find yourself having to choose a behavior that you are able to reconcile with what you believe God or your religious faith demands of you in order to sustain "I" beyond the grave.

But: that's just me here. That's what I am interested in. Why? Because from my frame of mind "here and now", in regard to all of this, my "I" is fractured and fragmented. My "I" thinks that in a No God/No Nirvana world, my interactions with others are embedded existentially in subjective/subjunctive fabrications/constructions rooted historically, culturally and experientially in dasein rooted in an essentially meaningless world. And that, in the end, "I" will topple over into oblivion.

So, sure, I come here and ask those who don't think like I do, to explain why perhaps I should think like they do instead. It's just that, based on my many, many experiences with many, many objectivists over the years, it is my frame of mind that starts to upend theirs.

Then comes the huffing and puffing, the retorts, the name calling, the making me the issue. Some -- like phoneutria and tab of late -- not only "foe" me, but encourage others to foe me too.

After all, look what is at stake for them here in regard to their own "real me" in sync with "the right thing to do". All the comfort and consolation that they sustain in believing this. Either through God or one or another secular font.

And I know this because I was once one of them myself. First as a fierce Christian, then as a fierce Socialist.

I know what is at stake here. But, who knows, given my own philosophical assumptions, maybe someone will actually be able to bring some of it back.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby iambiguous » Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:30 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
iambiguous wrote:And, given a particular context, let the Buddhists explain to us what he or she does mean by "no self".
Let them??????


Yep, that's how it works for me. As a moral nihilist [here and now], I don't believe there is a God or a religious narrative or an enlightened point of view that would enable me to distinguish between right and wrong behavior on this side of the grave so as to sustain "I" on the other side of the grave.

That's it. That's my own personal proclivity at the intersection of philosophy and theology and science.

And either someone is able to demonstrate to me why I should think and feel and say and do the things that they do in regard to this utterly fundamental aspect of the human condition, or I am not likely to be impressed.

Now, here, you and I are both "pragmatists". But: my own rendition of pragmatism seems to leave me a considerably more "fractured and fragmented" "I" than yours does. That's the part with you that interest me. But only out in the world relating to a particular context in which you and I both react to conflicting goods at the existential juncture of identity, value judgments and political power.


Karpel Tunnel wrote: They offer ways to find out worldwide. And as long as you don't live too far out in the countryside, there would be Buddhists who would come to you, should you be housebound, and help you learn, both experientially ( the central process) and through dialogue (a process that supports the practices in Buddhist tradition). It's all out there, and Phyllo does not need to let them do this. All you'd need to do is ask. It might take a while, but in the end someone would come and do their best to show you.


Right, back to this again. But I can then point out that you should invite all those who share a relgious or a philosophical or a political or moral narrative different from your own into your life as well. After all, they might be a hell of a lot closer to the whole truth than you are.

But, really, you'll never know until one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by
one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one you cross them off the list.

And then it's back to la la land:

Karpel Tunnel wrote: Wait, you wanted to know what the experience of swimming underwater was like?
Yeah. I googled it, but it's all just abstractions.
uh, huh. OK. Good luck.


As though the experience of swimming is on par with the experience of behaving as one ought to here and now in order to attain the experience of immortality and salvation there and then.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby iambiguous » Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:56 pm

phyllo wrote:The real problem is that anything that the Buddhist says will be an existential contraption. And therefore, essentially useless. Or at least no different from what he has now.


This is so far removed from what I am trying to communicate here that it serves only to remind me of what [no doubt] many of us come to feel here in regard to the reactions of others to our posts: huh?!!

We just can't figure out how they could possibly have gotten it that wrong after all of our exchanges!

Me in regard to your reactions, you in regard to mine.

And this in and of itself is [to me] truly fascinating.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby iambiguous » Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:58 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
phyllo wrote:The real problem is that anything that the Buddhist says will be an existential contraption. And therefore, essentially useless.
It's interesting that he thinks of contraptions as the content of thoughts, or thoughts where the content functions as a contraption.

IOW a contraption is some belief in X, that cannot be verified by science and serves a role like soothing the person about death or a lack of meaning.

Content. Beliefs.

But the metaphor contraption means a machine of device, and these are things that carry out a process. One does not need such a belief to carry out a process.

The way people interact with other people can be a contraption in precisely the negative sense he judges with the word.

You don't have to assert a single thing that is not verified by science to nevertheless be using a contraption.

And the habitual WAYS he interacts with others....are contraptions.
The habitual never trying anything out - Buddhist meditation, for example, that is practices, whether from psychology or Buddhism or anywhere else - is a defensive contraption.
The getting people to convince him pattern where he doesn't actually quite read what they are saying is a contraption.
The hijacking of threads is a contraption.
The trolling, now, for example, with his thread on astrology, is a contraption. Let me get you in a position where you try to convince me contraption.
The use of the criterion that whatever you believe should be something you can convince every rational person is true contraption,

Buddhism, despite much I do not like about it, very much tries to get people to sidestep BOTH their content based contraptions (the only kind he recognizes) AND their process ones. In fact meditation is all about that.

Introspection is not the best tool to actually notice one's habits. Meditation is not the only one, but the Buddhists do recognize process based contraptions and seek to remedy it in line with their heuristics.

But this is all taboo. Of course here I have discussed it abstractly or generally. But if you or I point out a very concrete specific contraption he has, where he refuses to try somethign or dismisses someothing out of hand or any of the other types of contraptions i listed above in a specific interaction,

this is us making him the issue.

Which is fascinating, since his posts are always talking about him and his fractured mind and his belly of the working class and how he can't know if he has free will....the whole hopeless, probably never can be resolvedness of his, specific life, come and solve it. But if one responds
precisely
to
what
he
makes
the
topic

we are off topic and wrong for having focused on him.

And really we are upset at him not for things like that hypocritical and confused insult, but because we are too afraid of something he bravely faces.

And it's funny. I always think I won't realize something new, but I think that actually made it clearer to me, writing this post, some of what is going on, and a little part of me thinks, also, on the side of this, oh, this time he will at least catch a glimspse of himself.

How naive can I be, after all this time?

Though on second thought i think the medium has effects. Without facial expressions and body language and tone of voice, a lot of what is happening between people and the more full experience of the other person is missing. These disembodied minds could do anything, but a concrete person often makes it very clear what they are up to.


We'll need a context of course.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby phyllo » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:13 pm

which part? calling bollocks for what it is, or criticizing the reasons why people believe in the bollocks? this is more along the lines of skepticism than nihilism, though. if there is any nihilism happening here, it's probably from biggs (and myself to a degree) standing aghast at the sight of all this.
What's bollocks? Buddhism or something else? Internal focus versus external focus? Personal change versus political change?

All of what?
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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby phyllo » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:38 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
They offer ways to find out worldwide. And as long as you don't live too far out in the countryside, there would be Buddhists who would come to you, should you be housebound, and help you learn, both experientially ( the central process) and through dialogue (a process that supports the practices in Buddhist tradition). It's all out there, and Phyllo does not need to let them do this. All you'd need to do is ask. It might take a while, but in the end someone would come and do their best to show you.



Right, back to this again. But I can then point out that you should invite all those who share a relgious or a philosophical or a political or moral narrative different from your own into your life as well. After all, they might be a hell of a lot closer to the whole truth than you are.

But, really, you'll never know until one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by
one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one you cross them off the list.

All Biggus really needed to say was "I glanced at Buddhism and I did not find it appealing" and it ends there. Nobody is forcing him to be a Buddhist.

Instead he formulates this response based on some bizarre obligation that KT has to explore every narrative in turn.

And who the hell brings up "the whole truth" aside from Biggus? Or "optimal"? Or the obligations of all rational people?
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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:39 pm

promethean75 wrote:which part? calling bollocks for what it is, or criticizing the reasons why people believe in the bollocks? this is more along the lines of skepticism than nihilism, though. if there is any nihilism happening here, it's probably from biggs (and myself to a degree) standing aghast at the sight of all this. it's enough to make you lose all hope. i mean look at poor biggs.
he's been asking for a particular context for what, three years now? and all he keeps getting are the same redundant generalizations... or statements so obscure they make hegel and heidegger look like third grade english teachers.
He's in a thread on Buddhism and it has been pointed out that 1) plucking quotes online from random texts from various Buddhisms is not only facile but disingenous 2) Buddhism is an experiential tradition, one that specifically encourages silent participation 3) that there are similarities between Buddhism and Iambs descriptions of himself

And, then 3 years???? lol. It's been a lot longer than that. And he has gotten concrete examples which he promptly forgets.

And here you are calling him poor biggs, falling for this adult man's victim positioning.

People have responding to him in a variety of ways and you know little about it. He hijacks threads, like this one. And it should be noted that despite that he has gotten excellent feedback in relation to his justified skepticism about Buddhism. I say it is justified because one should question things like this. As it happens, there is a great deal of scientific evidence, that is evidence about the 'is' world that Buddhist meditation is beneficial or considered to be by practitioners of many different backgrounds and goals and values.

He accuses others of abstraction, in a philosophy forum no less, but his posts are in the main some of the most abstract posts available and he never wants to discuss the most possible concrete events we actually share which is what is happening here in the dialogue with him. He wants, generally, to have discussions of symbolic people who are considering abortions and the like, and what every rational person should be convinced of, and never what he might do, despite whining aobut his fractured self, his not knowing if his actions are determined or not, his seeming not to have an I and so on.

And perfect, while rushing to his defense you confirm the obvious. He is taking the position of the victim, perhaps sometimes 'for all of us' unless we are objectivists, not that he can listen to people who are not or read their posts and respond to actual points made.

Poor Iamg indeed that his supporter cannot treat him like an adult fully capable of making choices here, and even, God forbid, learning something.
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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:57 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote: They offer ways to find out worldwide. And as long as you don't live too far out in the countryside, there would be Buddhists who would come to you, should you be housebound, and help you learn, both experientially ( the central process) and through dialogue (a process that supports the practices in Buddhist tradition). It's all out there, and Phyllo does not need to let them do this. All you'd need to do is ask. It might take a while, but in the end someone would come and do their best to show you.


Right, back to this again. But I can then point out that you should invite all those who share a relgious or a philosophical or a political or moral narrative different from your own into your life as well. After all, they might be a hell of a lot closer to the whole truth than you are.

But, really, you'll never know until one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by
one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one by one you cross them off the list.
You are in a thread about Buddhism asking about Buddhism. You are showing and interest in that. If you have an interest and given that it is a participatory religion that focuses on practices that makes the most sense. If you were throwing up your arms in a thread about some other thing that one learns about via practices or experiences, I would make the same suggestion.

If you actually were interested, and since you claim that there is nothing more important.

And, in a sense I agree. And, fuck you, I actually have done quite a bit of trial and error. I did try Buddhism and since when I did this I was healthier physically than you are, I went to the temples. I did participate and engage in the practices, not just throw my arms up in the air and pick random quote from various traditions in Buddhism to feel confused by. I did this with other systems out there. Why? Because it mattered to me. I didn't just pretend it mattered to me, it did matter to me.

I tend to go towards things that for some reason interested me. There were portions of the freedom and spontaneousness in ZEn that appealed to me and also the idea of not going round and round in my head (sound familiar) so

GIVEN

my interest, I participated. In the end I decided it was not what I wanted. I did not wait around for all rational people on earth to be convinced by an argument. I did not demand that as if that is rational. It's not rational Iamb to make that demand. To pout like a baby and demand that people convince you nto simply you might, note might, get something of value from it, but rather that every single person would.

It is quite a predicament we are in, but as far as I can tell you show no real interest in trying anything, but act as if it is all of critical importance to you.

It did seem like over the course of this thread you acknowledged that there is scientific evidence that people's stress levels and other generally accepted measures of health in science do improve from Buddhist practices. Not in an 'ought' way, but in an 'is' way. But still you go on bemoaning new portions of texts that present ideas you can throw your hands up in relation to. When it is pointed out that in many fields, prior to participation, conclusions and ideas in those fields will not be comprehensible to neophytes or people completely ignorant of that field.

Now, should you test out Buddhism? How the fuck should I know?

I don'l like it myself based on my experience of it, my experience of experts, and the understanding my experiences and training gave me about the goals of the system. I have no interest in you becoming a Buddhist.

But you are bullshitting us. The hard part is you are probably bullshtting yourself. You don't want a solution, you wanna bitch, because despite this being supposedly so important, you never do anything to actually try.

And amazingly...you don't know if you have an i. You experience yourself as fractured.

But when people give you feedback about how you are interacting here, you never actually take them seriously and actually consdier they might be on to something about you.

You give a little disclaimer, but you are not moved. You never concede a damn thing, ever. Despite your own claim not to know yourself, it is not something that interests you much at all, the possibility that some of the response you are getting might actually be spot on.

You nod to the idea, with no feeling, no interest. No, just back to your repetition.

And notice. You attacked me above for the supposedly silly trial and error path that I should take. And I explained in this post how in fact I did carry something like that out, but not in some silly abstract mathematical way.

But here's the thing. I've explained that before.

But you don't read. You have no memory. I remember things you've said. I respond to how you present yourself. I have taken you seriously. I still do.

You can't be bothered.

It's
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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby iambiguous » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:04 pm

phyllo wrote:All Biggus really needed to say was "I glanced at Buddhism and I did not find it appealing" and it ends there. Nobody is forcing him to be a Buddhist.

Instead he formulates this response based on some bizarre obligation that KT has to explore every narrative in turn.

And who the hell brings up "the whole truth" aside from Biggus? Or "optimal"? Or the obligations of all rational people?


What can I say?

Buddhism interest me only to the extent that its adherents address that which draws me to discussions of religion: morality here and now, immortality there and then.

How does being a Buddhist impact the behaviors that they choose in particular contexts as that relates to what they imagine their fate to be after they die.

Members here will either go there or they won't. And I am certainly not insisting that they are obligated to. Let alone forcing them to.

And my request to KT is bizarre only to the extent that we accept your assumption about it. Which was not my assumption at all.

There are hundreds of religious and political and moral and spiritual and enlightened paths to choose from. And, with so much at stake -- morality here and now, immortality there and then -- how is it not reasonable to suggest that one try as many of them as they possibly can in order to be certain of their own behaviors on this side of the grave and the fate of "I" in the other side?

Apparently, I am obligated to pursue Buddhism with that in mind while they are quite content to just accept what they believe now.

But, in that respect, I don't get Buddhism either. Only, instead, Phyllo and KT want to reconfigure the thread into "how you ought to get iambiguous".

My guess: like they do.

I addressed specific points to you in posts above. Today. Please respond to those points rather than focusing the exchange entirely on me.
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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:15 pm

phyllo wrote:All Biggus really needed to say was "I glanced at Buddhism and I did not find it appealing" and it ends there. Nobody is forcing him to be a Buddhist.
Exactly. If he is interested, drawn to it. It's participatory. And one can back out at any time. It's not the Moonies. He won't find himself forced into a marriage with a stranger. And jeez, there's even scientific evidence that the practices increase health in terms considered healthy in medicine. That's is stuff. Concrete 'is' stuff.
Instead he formulates this response based on some bizarre obligation that KT has to explore every narrative in turn.
And he wanting people to let Buddhists answer. All he has to do is do some local googling, find a center and speak to a Buddhist. I cannot possibly give a more concrete suggestion than that, unless he tells me where he lives and I act like a matchmaker.

That's why people don't take him seriously in terms of his supposed goals. He claims it's important, now he wants to know about Buddhism. Is he in a Buddhist online forum even? No. Though I am not going to give him links to one. That's not fair to them. But he's not a moron, and yet he does not take obvious steps.

I end up, via process of elimination, deciding that he likes the process of saying there is no way to know and demanded people come with perfect arguments.

this might not be what's happening, but it sure looks like it.
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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:51 pm

I can tell you something about the Buddha ...

I am grand central station for the spirit world.

Once the Buddha communed with me for about two hours.

I’ve never seen anything like it my entire life. The understanding, compassion and love for all beings was unprecedented in my life. I never wanted it to end.

But it did.
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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby Dan~ » Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:43 am

Ecmandu wrote:I can tell you something about the Buddha ...

I am grand central station for the spirit world.

Once the Buddha communed with me for about two hours.

I’ve never seen anything like it my entire life. The understanding, compassion and love for all beings was unprecedented in my life. I never wanted it to end.

But it did.


Trance / Meditation ?
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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:36 am

Dan~ wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:I can tell you something about the Buddha ...

I am grand central station for the spirit world.

Once the Buddha communed with me for about two hours.

I’ve never seen anything like it my entire life. The understanding, compassion and love for all beings was unprecedented in my life. I never wanted it to end.

But it did.


Trance / Meditation ?


Nah... it doesn’t work like that for me. Just a psychic visit.

I have to say it again. I’ve never seen anything like it.

In saying that, there are all forms of beings like this on earth, I’ve just never “met” one before. I’m an empath, which means that I can feel every being, what they feel. Doesn’t mean I always learn from it, but I can feel them.

When the Buddha came into my heart, it’s the first time in my life that I realized I don’t have the greatest heart in existence.

It was astounding.

And then it left, just like it came.
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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:54 am

Dan, additionally, I have to tell you —- despite people’s impressions of me on this board, I’m a very likable guy.

When the Buddha came to me, it was a mind boggling likability ... like I said. I’ve never seen anything like it before.

I guess the Buddha decided I only needed a couple hours to move with my life.

I would have loved to stay there forever
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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:55 am

Dan,

Doubly additionally ...

Probably not forever, because I moved on.

My passion is very simple. Make sure that no beings consent is ever violated again.

But I must say... it was nice while it lasted.
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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby iambiguous » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:38 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
You are in a thread about Buddhism asking about Buddhism. You are showing and interest in that. If you have an interest and given that it is a participatory religion that focuses on practices that makes the most sense. If you were throwing up your arms in a thread about some other thing that one learns about via practices or experiences, I would make the same suggestion.


Look, if, on this side of the grave, you have an interest in morality and, on the other side of the grave, immortality, then discussions of religion are likely to appeal to you. But there are hundreds and hundreds of enlightened paths out there to choose from.

And: No one really has the time to explore each of them one by one by one in order to make certain that their agendas are not better than the one they have now.

That's no less true for you than for me. For anyone.

Yeah, you can cross Buddhism off the list. It's not for you. Go to the next one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions

After all, to the best of my knowledge, you neither believe in God nor objective morality. Well, these folks do. And unless you explore them in the manner in which you insist I explore Buddhism, you'll never know for sure if one of them might succeed in bringing you the light.

Here though you can explore the extent to which any particular denomination/path might be able to entice you to investigate it further.

Now, for me that revolves around the manner in which, given a set of circumstances that most here are familiar with, their arguments at least address themselves to the components of my own moral philosophy. If I can't be persuaded by them that the manner in which I construe human identity, value judgments and political power as they pertain to actual existential junctures is something they confront with some really persuasive points, why on earth should I then move on to an even more important concern of mine.

This: the extent to which they are able to demonstrate that what they believe is in fact true for all rational human beings.

They would have gotten me into the temple when I was younger and healthier if their arguments and their evidence had been enticing enough.


After all, in college and given the many years I spent as a political activist, I had bumped into more than just a handful of Buddhists. My best friend Ed at ECC here in Baltimore was a Buddhist. I had endless discussions with him and his friends in the movement. I came to understand clearly how "for all practical purposes" it can be enormously beneficial. But my "thing" philosophically is morality/immortality. And I have not been persuaded by Buddhists [as of yet] to take their beliefs further.

Karpel Tunnel wrote: But you are bullshitting us. The hard part is you are probably bullshtting yourself. You don't want a solution, you wanna bitch, because despite this being supposedly so important, you never do anything to actually try.


Right, like you asserting this makes it so. As though someone "trying" is the case only when you have determined it. From discussions embedded in virtual reality no less!

Karpel Tunnel wrote: And amazingly...you don't know if you have an i. You experience yourself as fractured.


I won't even waste my time explaining yet again the distinctions I make here.

But now you are all worked up, aren't you? You've got me pinned to the mat so out it comes:

Karpel Tunnel wrote: But when people give you feedback about how you are interacting here, you never actually take them seriously and actually consider they might be on to something about you.

You give a little disclaimer, but you are not moved. You never concede a damn thing, ever. Despite your own claim not to know yourself, it is not something that interests you much at all, the possibility that some of the response you are getting might actually be spot on.

You nod to the idea, with no feeling, no interest. No, just back to your repetition.


"I've nailed him! I've nailed him! I've nailed him!"

edit:

Also, you didn't respond to this part at all:

Yep, that's how it works for me. As a moral nihilist [here and now], I don't believe there is a God or a religious narrative or an enlightened point of view that would enable me to distinguish between right and wrong behavior on this side of the grave so as to sustain "I" on the other side of the grave.

That's it. That's my own personal proclivity at the intersection of philosophy and theology and science.

And either someone is able to demonstrate to me why I should think and feel and say and do the things that they do in regard to this utterly fundamental aspect of the human condition, or I am not likely to be impressed.

Now, here, you and I are both "pragmatists". But: my own rendition of pragmatism seems to leave me a considerably more "fractured and fragmented" "I" than yours does. That's the part with you that interest me. But only out in the world relating to a particular context in which you and I both react to conflicting goods at the existential juncture of identity, value judgments and political power.
Last edited by iambiguous on Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:46 am

I’ll tell the world in this post one of my secrets:

I think reincarnation is bullshit.

I think we have resonant frequencies that access the entire pool of memories that will necessarily never die in existence.

I think people who believe in reincarnation are confused and unsophisticated.

Reincarnation as a teaching is admirable in one very narrow sense, you could have been born as anyone. You should have compassion for those past, you should have activism for moments to come.
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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby phyllo » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:26 pm

Now, here, you and I are both "pragmatists". But: my own rendition of pragmatism seems to leave me a considerably more "fractured and fragmented" "I" than yours does. That's the part with you that interest me. But only out in the world relating to a particular context in which you and I both react to conflicting goods at the existential juncture of identity, value judgments and political power.
Has anybody ever managed to have a discussion about a particular context with Biggus?

I mean a discussion in which he does not characterize your posts as "existential contraptions", "general descriptions", "abstract", "in the clouds", "words defending other words".

In which he does not dismiss your posts with "huh?" and "what on earth does it mean?".

Or maybe his responses are appropriate or adequate and my expectations of what constitutes a discussion are wrong. :confusion-shrug:
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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby iambiguous » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:33 pm

phyllo wrote:
Now, here, you and I are both "pragmatists". But: my own rendition of pragmatism seems to leave me a considerably more "fractured and fragmented" "I" than yours does. That's the part with you that interest me. But only out in the world relating to a particular context in which you and I both react to conflicting goods at the existential juncture of identity, value judgments and political power.
Has anybody ever managed to have a discussion about a particular context with Biggus?


Yeah. A while back you and I went round after round about Communism. You seemed to argue that there was the one and the only right way to look at it and that was yours. Based on your own personal experiences with it. You admitted that it would be "great if Communism worked as described in the writings, the slogans and the movies." But it didn't. Then I tried to reconfigure it into a historical contraption that people reacted to subjectively based on the manner in which I construe human identity here as the emobidment of dasein confronting conflicting goods -- capitalism/communisim -- out in a world where ultimately what counts is who has the power politically to enforce a particular existential balance between rewards and punishments. My main focus here revolved around probing [philosophically or otherwise] the extent to which "human wants and needs are more...in sync with Communism than capitalism". Emphasizing either "I" or "we"; the individual or society as a whole.

Like here there actually is a "real me" able to be seamlessly at one with "the right thing to do".

Though sure there might be. Run it by me.

Instead, we get you back in "retort" mode. Kidstuff:

phyllo wrote: I mean a discussion in which he does not characterize your posts as "existential contraptions", "general descriptions", "abstract", "in the clouds", "words defending other words".

In which he does not dismiss your posts with "huh?" and "what on earth does it mean?".

Or maybe his responses are appropriate or adequate and my expectations of what constitutes a discussion are wrong. :confusion-shrug:


From my frame of mind, of course, this sort of dimwitted caricature is particularly pathetic. It approaches some of the really dumb shit I get from folks like Pedro and Ecmandu.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:35 pm

iambiguous wrote:Look, if, on this side of the grave, you have an interest in morality and, on the other side of the grave, immortality, then discussions of religion are likely to appeal to you. But there are hundreds and hundreds of enlightened paths out there to choose from.

And: No one really has the time to explore each of them one by one by one in order to make certain that their agendas are not better than the one they have now.
Assumptions 1) if you can't try them all, there is no point in trying any of them [even though there are no more important issues according to you and you are terrified of the situation you find yourself in.] That makes no sense. My ship goes down and the flotsam all looks pretty flimsy, not big enough to keep me from drowning and I cannot decide which piece all rational humans would try so I will tread water without trying any until I drown. 2) You own interests in something in texts, or something adherents seem to have achieved or in the practices have no role to play in what you choose. You must encounter an argument that all rational people would be convinced by or there is no reason to try something. That makes no sense. 3) Abstract communication with people who are not Buddhists in a non-buddhist forum is a good way to find out about Buddhism. And I am supposed to assume you are really interested. Please.

Last: you mock the idea of going through the whole list of spiritual and religious approaches. But that is what you are doing, anyway. It is the method you use I suggested was not the best. Here you are doing Buddhism. I am suggesting Buddhism is better approached experientially. Get it, that whole one and one and one reductio ad absurdum is not relevant. YOu are spending time on Buddhism. But is it a good way to carry out your investigation?

Note: I have suggested that actual concrete experience is a better way to learn. You the one who uses 'abstract' as a pejorative term cannot even for a moment consider that your approach might not be optimal.

I am supposed to think that you are fractured and fragmented, and yet every day for years you take the same approach to learning and express incredulity that another approach might be rational or more rational.....


Now, for me that revolves around the manner in which, given a set of circumstances that most here are familiar with, their arguments at least address themselves to the components of my own moral philosophy. If I can't be persuaded by them that the manner in which I construe human identity, value judgments and political power as they pertain to actual existential junctures is something they confront with some really persuasive points, why on earth should I then move on to an even more important concern of mine.


Why on earth....you say.

On the one hand you are supposed to experience yourself as fractured and fragmented.
On the other hand you behave in precisely the same way for many, many years now AND you are so sure your approach is correct that you
1) express incredulity that any suggestion from people with more experience of the subject you are supposedly interested in could possibly be correct.
2) feel no need to even argue against that other approach and instead, as usual simply repeat why you do what you do - which you also might have some doubt about.

If you are so fractured and fragmented, why does it never seem to, for a fucking second, occur to you, even when it is pointed out, that your motivations might not be the ones you think they are.

No, that is impossible.

Here you are working your way through that list. The list you mock me as having ridiculously suggested you go through, when I did not. But you are going through that list, now Buddhism.

It is the manner in which you approach learning I am talking about.

Also, you didn't respond to this part at all:

Yep, that's how it works for me. As a moral nihilist [here and now], I don't believe there is a God or a religious narrative or an enlightened point of view that would enable me to distinguish between right and wrong behavior on this side of the grave so as to sustain "I" on the other side of the grave.

That's it. That's my own personal proclivity at the intersection of philosophy and theology and science.

And either someone is able to demonstrate to me why I should think and feel and say and do the things that they do in regard to this utterly fundamental aspect of the human condition, or I am not likely to be impressed.

Now, here, you and I are both "pragmatists". But: my own rendition of pragmatism seems to leave me a considerably more "fractured and fragmented" "I" than yours does. That's the part with you that interest me. But only out in the world relating to a particular context in which you and I both react to conflicting goods at the existential juncture of identity, value judgments and political power.
[/quote]
I have responded to this dozens of times in many different threads. You say you are more fragmented and fractured, but I can't see the results of that. You do not change. You do not change approach. You trust yourself enough to know yourself, your approach, your motives, to react with incredulity that any other approach might be useful, for example here communicating with someone who has more experience and abstract knowledge both about Buddhism. You cannot imagine that my suggestion that you participate might actually be a suggestion of a better approach to understanding Buddhism and abstract descriptions of it. Or that following what draws you AS AN INDIVIDUAL might be a better approach to specific options. No you can dismiss them out of hand.

You mock my 'having nailed you' but you do not for one moment consider that perhaps there was some truth in any of this.
And yet this is a fractured and fragmented person...
hm...

couldn't such a person have missed things about himself, about his self-pedagogy.

No, according to you. These things need simply be labels as me nailing you. And dismissed not via argument but through incredulity.

Engaging non-Buddhists in a non-Buddhist forum in abstract discussions of Buddhism...that's the best way to evaluate Buddhism. Snorts of derision that you might have reasons other than the ones you put forward or are even aware of (despite this oh, so fragmented 'i'). Snorts of derision that people with more experience and knowledge about how to learn such things might possibly have anything valuable to say about how to learn about Buddhism.

That all does not make sense.

And really, however harshly Phyllo and I can get with you, you seem to have no idea how truly respectful we have been, and how hard we have tried to communicate with you, using a variety of approaches to point out areas where you might learn something.

But, ironically, you know exactly how you should live, fractured I and nihilism and hopelessness repeatedly bemoaned only seeminly to the contradictory. This fractured and fragmented i has nothing to learn about his approach from others.

Well, good for you. Keep at it.
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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby MagsJ » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:49 am

MagsJ wrote:
phyllo wrote:
I’d say it’s simply about being the best human-being you can be, and not enjoying life at the expense of others.. my Bangladeshi Buddhism-practising uncle taught me that, passed down from his (family) generations, so taught as it’s meant to be traditionally taught, and not as a religious concept.

It’s simply a method of tweaking one’s thinking, to live a more fulfilling life.
Sure. You could say that.

But you could also say that human interactions are means to attaining nirvana and the end of your own personal suffering. Just as a capitalist could see human interactions as a means to acquire wealth. For a hedonist ... to get pleasure. A nihilist ... to get whatever he decides that he wants.

There are various ways to look at it ... some beautiful and some ugly. ("Beautiful" and "ugly" also being different ways of looking at the "various ways to look at it". )

You could say a Christian is just clawing his way into heaven, one "loving" act at a time.

What does 'meaningful' and 'meaningless' come down to?

Sorry to break the news to you, but none of that is relevant or applies to a practitioner born into a practising environment.. so a way of every day life, for such families and communities.

I would then say, that you are looking at it from an externalised viewpoint, as opposed to allowing the self to become entrenched in the concept.. as the only thing the practitioner seeks is stillness of mind.

You are thinking about it in Western terms and analogies. Religions are belief systems, that you gotta buy into to believe in.. with meditation and mindfulness, there is nothing to buy into.

phyllo wrote:Do Buddhists have meaning that others lack? That others can't get?

I would say that it’s not about meaning, but about having control and direction of one’s own thoughts, as opposed to being ruled by them, and nurturing the ones that have utility. I would say that that is what non-practitioners can’t get, in not letting one’s problems cloud one’s judgment and interactions. Too many have been guilty of that.

Where does meaning come from? Inside? Outside? Both? Neither?

How much of it is attitude?

..from within, which then manifests outwardly, with every interaction we have.

Attitude? Practice erases unnecessary thoughts and habits, so call it a detox for the mind.. if you will. A seasoned practitioner can automatically reset their thinking habits at will, so as to be constantly operating from a place of mindfulness.. and so the practice has become second nature, hardwired into the mind.

Do you intend to respond Phyllo?

I know a few that have grown up in a Western/Catholic etc. / Eastern/Buddhist/Hindu etc. household, and the two seem to co-exist well together.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ


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Re: I don't get Buddhism

Postby phyllo » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:14 am

Do you intend to respond Phyllo?

I know a few that have grown up in a Western/Catholic etc. / Eastern/Buddhist/Hindu etc. household, and the two seem to co-exist well together.
I don't think that I need to respond.

You posted your thoughts. I read them.
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