What is believable?

[scorpio]

Regarding the history of christianity does anybody feel they are not being told the truth, that many things are kept hidden, that smoke screens have been placed and that parts of histoy itself has been fabricated?

[Rafajafar]

Yes. What did Satan object to?

[Marshall McDaniel]

In the Moslem religion Satan objected to bowing down to anyone other than God and was for that reason cast down into the netherworlds.

[jgfan]

Not really, why do you?

[Marshall McDaniel]

In answer to Scorpio's inquiry, yes! We learn early that santa claus, the easter bunny, and the tooth fairy are fabrications, but religion is very deeply ingrained...

[Bob]

Hi Scorpio,

I believe that you are right to some degree. There are too many people acting as though everything is quite clear about God. But, whatever religion you subscribe to, God remains a mystery. How many television Evangelists go on like in the song from Genesis? How many people are willing to take lives for what the concieve to be the will of God?

Religion is a deeply human need. We all develop some kind of spirituality, some are good, some are not healthy. Many psychiatric disorders come from unhealthy religious views that develop into psychoses and phobia.

I think the problem stems from the fact that we have two levels of spirituality that are virtually sold in our days: The one is a childrens version. Some people try to hold on to this version as long as they can, suppressing facts that disagree with their worldview, but which they shouldn't ignore.
The other level is the "grown-up" version (avoiding the word "adult" ). People who adopt this approach to religion understand that their worldview is but one of many perspectives, but that the community of believers at this level can make the world a better place.

I believe the biblical christmas story is an interpretation of experiences people had in the light of old testament prophecies. Theologians are aware of problems transalting from Hebrew or Aramaic into Greek and subsequently into Latin and our modern languages. There is a great deal lost there too - or misinterpreted.

Church history has a lot to reveal by people looking into it. A personal and critical look at Church history, albeit from the aspect of the persecution of the Jews, was written by James Carroll in "Constantines Sword". I was completely fascinated by the book. Other sources of information are jewish scholars who have interpreted and commented the New Testament.

There is a lot more to be told, but you have to want to find it.

Shalom
Bob

[Marshall McDaniel]

A lot lost. The gospel of John, for example, was written about 70 years after the fact. A lot of documents were written and rewritten, sometimes embellished. Many documents were condemned, burned, or voted out at close elections at councils in cities like Carthage, Nicea, and elsewhere. Yet some get on TV and say that the bible is the "undisputed" word of God.
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I read the dead sea scrolls, it helped to shed some light on the time surrounding Jesus. Can anyone tell me about Calvin's bible?

[Guest]

Thank you for your comments.
I am extremely weary of confining myself to any religion. With so many contradictions, discrepancies, and conflicting views between them, i remain on the outside (of religion) whilst maintaining my own beliefs and moral codes.

[scorpio]

Thank you for your comments.
I am extremely weary of confining myself to any religion. With so many contradictions, discrepancies, and conflicting views between them, i remain on the outside (of religion) whilst maintaining my own beliefs and moral codes.

I forgot to sign in hence the guest

[Marshall McDaniel]

I would say that what is believable (for starters, we'll elaborate later) are things that can be verified by the five senses or their extensions.

[Bob]

I would say that what is believable (for starters, we'll elaborate later) are things that can be verified by the five senses or their extensions.

Well, I'm still into dictionaries and find under believable: Capable of eliciting belief or trust. I can't help but thinking that the trust or assurance we gain from people or circumstances is always something that we leave ourselves open to. We rely upon our feelings, experience and the appearance of the person we trust - but we never know whether we will be disappointed.

To believe isn't primarily a religious experience. We trust our mother to begin with. As long as our reliance upon her as a sustainer isn't disappointed we may go on to trust another person - perhaps our father or our sister or brother. As we proceed through life, we are told what we can trust and make our own experiences. Society is built upon trust - without it, we're on a free-for-all and battle of the fittest. With trust we can start to build.

It doesn't surprise me that metaphysics is also a matter of trust or belief. Even though it doesn't suit us all of the time. The problem with the modern age is that it has delusive view of it's knowledge and abilities - and, although it holds itself to be so advanced, engages in atrocities comparable to early man - just disguised and without an excuse.

Shalom
Bob

[Guest]

"Believe nothing that you read. Laugh at whatever anyone has to say."
it's all lies man! all of human history has been made up! they put in only the "important" stuff and leave out the trillions of people that lived and died unnoticed. What about the guy who inspired lets say Edison to become an inventor? man i'd like to know him. tha'd be mag sweet.

[Marshall McDaniel]

Yes Bob, we engage in the same atrocities, but now we dress them up in modern ideologies, and accomplish them in stunning style with state of the art technology.

[INoNothing]

I think that with out doubt anything and everything is believable. Look at out history for example. Some believe they need tombs for a good after life, others think that flying planes into buildings will grant them eternity in a great paradise. If you catch them at a young enough age and tell them what they want to hear, you can make them do anything.

Your sins killed Christ, feel guilty? Then give and stop enjoying your life.

[Marshall McDaniel]

Do you think popular opinion responsible for this? Or does it have to do more with unmitigated authority? Or perhaps a complex mixture of both?

[INoNothing]

Do you think popular opinion responsible for this?

Yes, humans are social machines, if one is around someone (especially since birth) he will pick up there traits, habits and beliefs.

[chanbengchin]

Anything and everything is believable.

The real issue is why and how people believe what they believe.

I think an investigation into why people believe what they believe will be a fascinating endeavour, and it should correctly start with yourself: ask yourself why you believe what you believe.

We all hold some kind of internal framework with which we filter what we see and hear, and by which we understand what we see and hear. Now we may hold several framework at one time, and we may not always be conscious of all of them, or of which and in what context we apply them, and they are also not all consistent, ie contradictory, either of themelves or their applications. (And before we can start to believe we may have have already filtered away things we dont want to see or hear.)

Some of these internal framework could be:

1. Truth. You believe only that is truth. But this just transfer the problem to the quesiton: what is truth?

2. Authority. You believe anything as long as it originate in someone you trust, eg your parents when you are young, your teachers in school, your friend who loves you, or a consensus of experts for a particular subject, or a Holy Book, or your religious leader, eg the Pope, etc

3. Popular Opinion. You believe because everyone believes. Sort of a democratic approach to truth. But we know this is flawed, eg at one time most of the world thought the earth was flat. (The corollary of course is that everyone can disagree with you but yet you can be right.)

4. That which pleases you.

5. That which you want to hear.

6. That which concurs and is consistent with your inner voice, and does not violate or offend you.

7. That which is consistent with your values, eg everyone is good. (Values can be thought of as axiomatic beliefs.)

8. And many more ...

[Marshall McDaniel]

Very interesting Chanbengchin. Beliefs also have to cohere with the beliefs one possesses, but you used the word consistent in 6&7. Truth must correspond to reality and it must cohere with the truths one already possesses. I think too, that people believe something to be true because it gives them pleasure (which you seem to mention in 4).
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Inonothing stated:

I think that with out doubt anything and everything is believable. Look at out history for example. Some believe they need tombs for a good after life, others think that flying planes into buildings will grant them eternity in a great paradise. If you catch them at a young enough age and tell them what they want to hear, you can make them do anything.

Your sins killed Christ, feel guilty? Then give and stop enjoying your life.

Bertrand Russell once wrote a piece expounding the virtues of doubt. It has long been a mainstay of secularists, humanists, and freethinkers. Question authority (and everything else too).

[INoNothing]

Bertrand Russell once wrote a piece expounding the virtues of doubt. It has long been a mainstay of secularists, humanists, and freethinkers. Question authority (and everything else too).

What did this Russell man say? Did he agree with my silly believe anything idea? Does anyone disagree? why?

[Marshall McDaniel]

I think he would agree with you. Anything is possible without doubt without a doubt.