Torturegate

[Wobbly]

We have massive amounts of international cooperation, unprecedented amounts. We would have had more had we honored certain international agreements, but we didn't, so we lost support and we lost soft power. People all over Europe protested when we violated our own damn rules about pre-emptive attacks, and this made it politically risky for many European leaders to openly support our actions, and political gold to openly criticize them. This meant we were stuck with all the risks of the war and all the costs. Torturing exposes us as hypocrites and morally repugnant to those same populations, and other more volatile populations.

This is politics 101, soft power is what matters to the military hegemon. The neo-conservative agenda that thinks we can and should dominate the world with military might alone has some how become "political realism" on this board. And the politics of soft power which is what really matters has somehow been degraded down into "morality" and a foreign international agenda. It is ass backwards, and pure garbage.

[Faust]

People all over the world protest us regularly, and have for generations. Eurotrash students have always thought of us as hypocrites, while they drink our beer, eat out fast food, listen to our music and wear our jeans. The fact is that they think that Obama is more a messiah than the US electorate does. They follow, because they have no choice.

The neo-conservative agenda that thinks we can and should dominate the world with military might alone has some how become "political realism" on this board.

I am not pushing that idea at all. The war was a colossal mistake.

Someone else here may think that the neo-conservative philosophy is okay - but I don't.

And calling it garbage does not an argument make.

[Wobbly]

So what am I supposed to infer from this unbelievable post?

That People have always protested us somehow means pissing off populations around the world doesn't have negative consequences for us? And we can do anything we want because "they have no choice" but to follow? And from earlier posts those who want to prosecute the violation of 50 years of domestic and international law and standards of human rights are fringe and concerned only with political points?

Reads like a neo-conservative handbook.

Perhaps I should also add that "And calling it Eurotrash does not an argument make.", despite the fact that it clearly had nothing to do with an argument you were making and was the expression of a personal opinion for effect.

[Faust]

It's not an all-or-nothing situation. We pay a price just for being number one. That's not a reason to be number two. Which is an illustration and not meant as the consequence for curtailing torture.

Torture is an emotional issue.

And we can do anything we want because "they have no choice" but to follow?

No, not anything. We're talking about one thing.

And from earlier posts those who want to prosecute the violation of 50 years of domestic and international law and standards of human rights are fringe and concerned only with political points?

There's nothing "fringe" about political rhetoric. You can try to put words in my mouth, but that's just more political rhetoric. It's a tool of the politician to put words in someone else's mouth.

Reads like a neo-conservative handbook.

I am the furthest thing from a neocon. It's also a tool of the political rhetoritician to ignore the other side's position, and to misrepresent it. The war was tragic and stupid. I'm just longing for someone, anyone, to admit that this wasn't just an evil plot by our leaders against us. That the vast majority of the populace was all for this war, despite clear evidence that there was no threat against us. Anyine who would endorse a war without ever having picked up a newspaper to see that there was no threat deserves whatever they get. I knew there was no threat. I'm not on the UN's mailing list. If I knew, anyone could have. I'm just tired of people whining "it's someone else's fault". And they did this one thing, these leaders, that crossed the line. Well, the line is in the wrong place,then.

The line was crossed years ago, at the start of this war. We got what we were clamoring for. Hundreds of thousands died. But somehow torturing a few, who still have their lives, is a crime. The whole thing was a crime, and we're the criminals. We (not I, specifically, but I didn't march in the streets, or even email Congress, either) loved the idea of it. And now we want to blame Bush and Cheney (which is what this is all about). I'd just like to see some of these registered Democrats and liberals take some personal responsibility and assign the rest where it belongs - to their friends and neighbors.

Perhaps I should also add that "And calling it Eurotrash does not an argument make.",

I know. But I just love saying "eurotrash". Comes from waiting tables for years, and not getting tipped by haughty frenchmen.

[Wobbly]

Your discussion style is random and abusive. One-liners and cryptic disconnected phrases followed by claims of "putting words in my mouth" when I give an earnest attempt to try and decipher the implications. I've seen this before, and it's not more interesting coming from you, and I just don't care anymore by the time I finally get to a worthwhile point. Maybe another time.

[Faust]

Maybe.

[felix dakat]

From NPR: "The Justice Department has nearly completed its investigation into lawyers who wrote the "torture" memos authorizing harsh interrogations.

According to two sources familiar with the investigation, the report will refer people to bar associations for possible disciplinary action. Criminal prosecution, however, seems increasingly unlikely.

The investigation focuses on three attorneys who worked in the Office of Legal Counsel during the Bush administration. John Yoo, Jay Bybee and Steven Bradbury each played a significant role in writing the torture memos. The Office of Professional Responsibility has been investigating whether their role in crafting the memos violated legal ethics. "

[Xunzian]

Hey! It looks like they were using torture for all the right reasons!