Does Nothing exist?

Student, you are using truth-functional logic to come to a Goedelian conclusion. I too have considered this seemingly undecidable concept of Nothing. I have found mathematically, what you will arrive at is a contradiction, albeit one that is inconclusive.

But, lets say we use a modal logic standpoint.

Lets further specify that ‘nothing’ is a mood of sorts. So, as an example “It is possible that ‘nothing’ might exist” would mean that non-existence is just a possibility, and thus DOES have a strange existence, as possibility. We need not subject the possibility to the rigid rules of T-F logic. In fact, we can’t because modal logic rejects the T-F logic schema. Nothingness then becomes just a possible thing, amongst many other states. As long as it remains possible it can be in a sort of quantum physics state of being and non-being.

If this seems dubious to you, I’ll be the first to agree. Modal logic is a weak form of reasoning. It can’t establish conclusions like T-F logic. But, it opens a pathway to a different view of existence. It is also how our minds seem to work. Being Dutch, your great mathematician Brouwer questioned an idea in math logic which I love him for doing. He took out the negative X negative= positive convention in algebra and found so many conclusions in abstract algebra would have to change. But nobody seemed to care. Well that’s an overstatement. Nobody seemed to pick up on it. I’m writing an article now about this great man and his intuitionist philosophy. But I am digressing with this comment. Back to your question…

So, as an answer to your opening query: Does Nothing exist? Yes, but only as a possibility. Of course you could then ask…well does impossibility exists? I would have then say: impossibility is the set in which ‘nothing’ is contained. What? Yeah it gets me too. If I could embed math symbols it would be clearer. I seem to be going back to T-F logic with that comment and I’m not. I’m saying of all the possible states, impossibility is the possible state of being ‘nothing’. I know this seems like semantics.

Well I guess I failed to convince you. No big deal, I’m still trying to convince my daughter to stopping believing in that foolish Christianity stuff with the Jesus and the God and all that rot!

Later man.

Hi Robleh,

Thank you for your response. What I tried to show was that for this specific question, any definite answer would be the result of the perspective (assumptions) someone takes. I agree with you that the answer to such a question is better expressed in terms of possibilities, and not in a definite truth-false value.

With all the modern results of science and an open-minded approach to the world, for me it is not difficult to accept that everything in our world appears in quantum states, or possibilities. When you look close enough to any phenomena in our world, it’s never either one extreme or the other, it’s always some combination of two opposites, which often appear to be conflicting at first (for instance: rationalism and empiricism, and the wave and particle properties of photons). Because of this sometimes even impossibility appears to be, or can be considered as, a possibility.

With respect to logic, I think that the open world assumption corresponds nicely with this open-mindedness. Personally I don’t even consider my own personal experiences or memories of those as fundamental truth values for my reasoning, and so I only use them for estimating confidence or possibilities. I mean, I could always have misinterpreted something and by that potentially have drawn a wrong conclusion, leading to “incorrect” memories, and why attach myself to something of which I cannot be sure?

In my essay the definition of Nothing I used is also important, because the answer to my question completely depends on the definition you use. For understanding this definition I gave, one possible approach could be to think of a directed graph that connects context-relevant concepts to those that are used to define it. Most fields of science would then show up as coherent groups of interconnected concepts, and my definition of Nothing would always remain as the single unknown.

I actually think that we mostly agree, and that at this moment we would both be viewing the discussion I mentioned from the sideline.

May I ask what kind of logic you are planning to use for that? I think that there are more people interested in some help with that discussion. Surely a logician like yourself has some valid logical reasoning behind that, right? In any case, good luck. I can imagine this difficulty in having children, teaching them what is true and what not, what is good and what is bad, and so on…

Student, glad we’re in agreement. Quick answer to the question about my daughter. I can’t use logic with her. (BTW she’s 27 and about to be 28, far from a child now). She’s joined some type of Christian fundamentalist sect, that literally interprets the Bible, etc. When I try to argue with from any deductive view, she just refers to the Bible to override whatever I say. She’s also fallen for that group of pseudo-scientists that put forth the Intelligent-Design argument. I’m sure you’ve heard of them. They try to use statistical improbability to argue for God. Classic fallacy! Just because something is highly improbable, they jump in and say SEE it had to be an intelligent designer (Code word for God) that made everything. I know I’m ranting now, but bare with me. Here’s an example why I can’t argue with her. She says: Dad okay tell me something that didn’t have a creator? Then goes on with her ready make illogical argument-- Like if I take these cards and put them in this order, I am the one, that made that order right? I say: yes Asha. Well see there ya go. I then describe how thru a thermodynamic process a gaseous state like boiling water, will cool to liquid water, as energy always flows from a warm source to a colder one. Thereby, highly disorganized atoms (the gaseous state), will become a more structured order and if heat is further removed (by a natural process mind you, nobody pulling strings to make it happen), it will become very organized into a crystalline structure we know as ice. There Asha, here is a process that created a very organized structure and no God was necessary. You know what she says: Well God had to make the natural process in the 1st place! I say: Aiiiiiii ya ya ya… Kid there’s no arguing with you. They got you sold! Which of course she responds that I’m so into that ‘science stuff’ I can’t see the one true God, and his revelations, etc. etc. I write about her here, because is one internet site she’ll never visit, that’s for sure!

Don’t ever mention Charles Darwin to her. I honestly think her ‘church’–if can be called that, has a picture of Ol’ Charlie that they throw darts at every Sunday.

I would have given up on that discussion already if I were you. I think that different people who apply contradicting reasoning systems to convince each other are only spending time, maybe attract some public attention while doing so, but other than that they probably won’t achieve much with it. This convincing will most likely not occur, and if it is mutual understanding you wish to achieve, you’d be better off trying to understand her, instead of trying to convince her. Of course it would help if she would take a similar position.

:character-oldtimer:

in terms of us, no, in terms of the cosmos, there is no answer to the question and there is no question

Nothing cannot exist now because there are things. If nothing ever did exist, for simplicity how many nothings were there. Now of course, nothing is a man made word that cannot truly be used to describe whatever it actually was or wasn’t. If there ever was a time where there was even a possibility of nothing there was still something there. Something that pre exists the Big Bang, any Amoeba, whatever anyone can believe. Even the numerical idea or lack thereof of nothing. Math. Math as a concept, an idea, something that just is. Math in its practice pre exists all. Therefore, not only is there no such thing as nothing, but, either the existence of math, which may have had to have been created by something, is God, or proves the existence of an ever existent supreme being which created it.

Has anyone ever considered substituting the word Nothing for the word God?

Does Nothing exist?

The answer to this question is: “Yes it exists”. How?! That’s the way:

Nothing is the way of expression and relation about a particular question to a particular subject. What does this mean?

Picture this: I ask a friend “Can you please go to the next room and see if there is any chair in there?” The friend goes there and look “No, nothing”, he says. I ask him again “Do you see a table there?” He looks and say “Yes it is”.

When you start a conversation with someone and you two start talking about different aspects, one of you claim something about that case and another one says “No it has NOTHING to do with THAT”. So what is this Nothing all about?! That Nothing is the way the person sees the thing on his/her particular view of the relations about the particular cases. Therefore the same Nothing that you started the Thread with, is YOUR Nothing. Another proof to its existence.

I feel the only question we can ask is: What do we mean when we say “nothingness”

This question I feel has been answered successfully by many of the contributors to this thread, however I would like to add the following sentance: There literally isn’t nothing out there.

When said in this way the notion seems to take on new significance for me.

Nothingness is absence of anythingness.

Nothing might exist in some regions, why not?

IMO, nothingness and somethingness are the two most fundamental building blocks of countless kinds of existence (aka ultimate Yin-Yang), which are between those (only) two types of absolutes - one being full existence and the other being full nonexistence.

A new kind of existence thus happens when this nothingness and somethingness mix, and since there are countless of ways for nothingness and somethingness to mix there are, as said, countless types of existence. Where our known Universe is just one of them.

So, yes, nothingness exists as nonexistence. Nonsense? Well, if it exists it cannot be nonsense or it wouldn’t exist, so, it must be only sense :wink:

What if for instance the concept of nothing is merely a trick of the mind, not related to reality all all. because we have a part of our brain which has to differenciate between one and the other (mostly I figure for the simple use of, “I can eat this”, “I can’t eat this”) we, in connection with other mental apperatus, take that program to a logical conclusion. Not that this process has any bearing on reality.

So, let’s say the concept of nothing is something which we ascribe to things. I mean it seems to we that only though a process of mental though can we come up with opposites. I have a hard time thinking of anything tangible which could be described as having an opposite, except as not (in which it never happened in the first place, did it)

i think you should takes other dimensions into account. i believe the 3rd dimension to be infinite to us in the same way a floating sphere would be infinite to a 2d man (notice how the 2d man is really living in 3d, he just cant perceive it)

so basically i think “nothing” may still be something in another dimension. i think “dimensionless” really just means out of the 3rd dimension and into one we cant perceive.

i don’t think “nothing” can exist. even your thoughts have a biological correlation

It’s hard to live with contradiction and paradox. One you try to grasp onto something completely, something else tends to pop out from the fist you are using to squeeze it. There is a limit to how far one can squeeze. Once that limit is reached, all you are doing by continuing to squeeze is creating callouses.

i read some of your essay but i just dont understand why you would make such a broad statement such as this…

nothing is the only true universal constant? what of love? and even forgetting about love …how is this quoted statement supported within your essay?

Nothing seems to be something that many are afraid of.

I found this forum searching for an answer to this question, and this question might turn out to be one of the most important questions ever asked.

At least this question is very important to me because I only recently became aware that god is not a concept that can in any way help to stop thinking about the mystery of the origin of existence.

If god created the universe, who created god? God is a useless concept in answering the question of the origin of anything. God is a useless brainfuck.

I came to the question of nothing when I tried to imagine what was before the big bang.

A “nothingness” before the big bang would mean not only no matter or energy, but also no space and no time, and not even emptiness or vacuum because these concepts would require space.

However, if “nothing” can not exist, you don’t need creation. The universe simply exists because there is no alternative. We could coin it the TINA-principle of existence, and do not need a creator or creation. For me, this would be a very satisfying answer to stop thinking about why the universe exists, much more satisfying than convincing myself that such a complex entity like a personal god came into existence for no reason.

You are of course still free to use this TINA-Principle to explain the existence of god, but you can as well cut this middlemen out.

What also supports the idea that “nothing” is impossible is that logic and mathematical truth exist outside time, matter and space. For example there can not be a universe with different prime numbers.

Maybe what some people call God is what other people call math or logic.

So far there seems to be consensus here that “nothing” does not exist in our universe, it is just an abstract concept in our mind, required to define existence. However, nothing of something is something that can exist. Nothing of anything does not seem to exist. Therefore something must exist.

I am starting to love this idea.

Pavel

We are all in the constant flux of nothing and of something

Does Nothing exist?

I am a fragment of (Nothing) as are You…The Nothingness which all things exist within. Therefore (Nothing) does exists, for I AM. All that is considered as a (Thing) exist only because it exists within that which we Are. Things exist only within the consciousness of Nothingness. Therefore, Things do not actually exist outside of the ability to consider them. Nothing does exist, whereas Things are but a manifestation of what we believe exists. Things are merely a projection whose purpose is only to reflect the Truth that We Are. Things are symbolic, not a reality but reflecting that which IS. Consider all Things so to reveal No Thing.
…love iamuurme…

Just a thought…

Probably the wrong place to look for an answer…